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Would THIS fix Paladin?


Xaero
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Here is a better question:  Should a Templar Paladin be standing next to a Champion beating on people with a great sword or should a Cleric be?

My answer:  The Paladin should be.  

To me Divine Light is broken.  It says its instant cast but its animation locks you in place for a second or two.  How it should work is like a Clerics Spiritual Presence.  Turn it on and run into the frey.  Which is something Clerics do not do.  The fix?  Why not swap the abilities?  Give the Clerc the ground targeted bigger heal and give a Templar Paladin the mobility.

THIS:

Spiritual_Presence.JPG

Should be swapped with THIS:

divine_light.JPG

Now I am going to go hide from the mob of angry Clerics gathering outside my door.

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You can animation cancel divine light.  But ya, why you have to do that when it says instant cast makes no sense.  Could also make the paladin promotion make divine light follow them around instead of static.

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On 8/24/2021 at 2:19 PM, Xaero said:

My answer:  The Paladin should be.  

I think the real answer -- to the dismay of people who wanted to play "dedicated healers" -- is that "they both should be". I get good results with a cleric that stays near me and knows where his block button is.

But I do get your point. The enemy falls back. We push forward. The cleric's heals move with him. Mine stay on the ground behind us. I think the Templar concept was to "hold the line" but that's almost never a real thing that you really want to do and for all the strength of our line holding ability, we still must push on the enemy because their ranged will still tear us apart if we don't keep the pressure up.

Having Divine Light move with the Vindicator might be a balance issue (then again, the Fanatic does it) but I don't see the problem with having the Paladin's circle move with him. Not sure about the Fury. They have enough problems that letting Divine Light move with them would not exactly overbalance the class so why not.

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The amount of total redesign you'd have to do to templar to divorce it from the ground circle and have it still be in any way balanced would be staggering. You'd need a top to bottom redesign of the class, and in so doing what would you end up with? A melee cleric and/or a knight with heals. Seems kinda redundant and pointless.

Its thing is "stand here and defend this spot" and there are absolutely many use cases for "defend this spot" in this game at all scales of pvp objective.

You may have to eventually push out and kill the enemies, but that's why there are more than templars in the game, why you don't try to bring nothing but templars to the fight, and why you build a group comp to account for the fights you expect to have. Some builds suck in melee, or suck against ranged, or suck solo, or suck in group fights, or suck against counterbuilds. That's why you've got six character slots and four or five other dudes in the party. If your character isn't going to work for the current problem, bring a different one, or get some support to help cover your weaknesses in a better group comp.

The game is full of weird balance stuff but "templars are zone denial toons" isn't really a busted mechanism or goal for the class design. If you're going to adjust it, I'd adjust to to be a better zoner rather than make it cleric 2.0

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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9 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

The amount of total redesign you'd have to do to templar to divorce it from the ground circle and have it still be in any way balanced would be staggering.

Which is at least a condemnation of the current talent tree. Divine Light is such a powerful part of the class -- such a defining feature -- that you can't not get it. Imagine if Myrmidons had to spend a talent point in the middle of the tree on picking up Berserk. Or if Assassins had to spend a talent point in the same spot in order to pick up stealth. Divine Light should be moved into the base Templar ability and then put something else there.

And the "Paladin" (as well as the "Fury") talents need to be scrapped and replaced with something more useful.

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10 minutes ago, Slamz said:

Which is at least a condemnation of the current talent tree. Divine Light is such a powerful part of the class -- such a defining feature -- that you can't not get it. Imagine if Myrmidons had to spend a talent point in the middle of the tree on picking up Berserk. Or if Assassins had to spend a talent point in the same spot in order to pick up stealth. Divine Light should be moved into the base Templar ability and then put something else there.

And the "Paladin" (as well as the "Fury") talents need to be scrapped and replaced with something more useful.

Confessors have this issue too unfortunately. Fervor is absolutely critical to the class to function at all yet somhow its in a spot on the tree that should be skippable

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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I would assume "sphere" is considered "stuck to avatar/crow".  Adding that mobility would not game breaking as similar abilities in other healers do the same.  We would still get ranged down easily without a group counter.  It would make small and large group fights more fluid instead of being a leap frog fest.  Are we frogs or crows?

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On 8/25/2021 at 1:44 PM, PopeUrban said:

The amount of total redesign you'd have to do to templar to divorce it from the ground circle and have it still be in any way balanced would be staggering. You'd need a top to bottom redesign of the class, and in so doing what would you end up with? A melee cleric and/or a knight with heals. Seems kinda redundant and pointless.

Its thing is "stand here and defend this spot" and there are absolutely many use cases for "defend this spot" in this game at all scales of pvp objective.

You may have to eventually push out and kill the enemies, but that's why there are more than templars in the game, why you don't try to bring nothing but templars to the fight, and why you build a group comp to account for the fights you expect to have. Some builds suck in melee, or suck against ranged, or suck solo, or suck in group fights, or suck against counterbuilds. That's why you've got six character slots and four or five other dudes in the party. If your character isn't going to work for the current problem, bring a different one, or get some support to help cover your weaknesses in a better group comp.

The game is full of weird balance stuff but "templars are zone denial toons" isn't really a busted mechanism or goal for the class design. If you're going to adjust it, I'd adjust to to be a better zoner rather than make it cleric 2.0

After a couple weeks on Dregs and now FvF, you're entirely wrong. There are almost no use cases for standing and defending a spot. There is about 15 minutes 3 days a week when forts/keeps come up to do that.  That's it, why? because it isn't worth capping anything in the first 45 minutes it's open. There is no incentive to hold anything for an hour. Other than that, this game is moving in the open between spots, which take very little time to cap, and lots of fighting in between with massive amounts of movement. The PALADIN specialization of this class feels absolutely worthless in the majority of game play.

You're just like every other person who thinks spot based localization healing is meaningful.  It's not.  Let's play your game and assume it is - then we need to be able to move that spot without it being tied to a long cool down because the spot moved and is ever moving.

Just last night I was one of two healers, and you aren't even talking about how broken it is that you HAVE TO HAVE two healers to even remotely compete, and the group is constantly yelling for heals and my answer is "You moved out of it and it's on cooldown" or "My one direct heal is on cooldown".  I even use friar, but the amount of healing that does is pathetic. (This is from the fights just last night even and many others before that)

So you have a storm of just awful mechanics - localized healing, long cooldowns, and barely noticeable healing amounts. So, you're absolutely right they need to tear Paladin and probably fury down to the ground and rebuild it to not be the blue outhouse it is.

The state of healing in this game in general is just pathetically bad, with so many ranged that can chunk off more than you can hope to heal for in every single cooldown is not even funny.  Plus almost every other class has a form of self-sustain.

And before you are like derp derp gear or vessel - I am on crafted gear with 1300+ support power and a blue vessel.

As a last mention here - why is it that ace development partners are the ones I see the most railing against the state of paladin? why are they the ones always pooping the idea that something is broken and not working well? Sad that is going to be associated with the DEVs and their lack of respect for a CONSTANT theme for this specialization having a poor experience. Unless the only word that counts is MrErad who plays a confessor now except when he sometimes opts to kill level 28 players and says the spec is fine because they zerg rolled some low level newbs. 

Edited by Maverick494
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@Maverick494Makes me wish I had stayed deep in the developmental cycle of this game over the past hundred years.  They have made some really odd choices with this game.  If there was anyone that understood how Shadowbane worked at the core it would be me (why it worked, why it failed).  I accidently crashed the SB servers once (only person who ever did that to my knowledge) and made a class that could tank 60 players /targeting me.  Sorry for not being a part of the making of this game.

Back on topic: More mobility is not overpowered.  I agree the majority of fights big and small are about mobility and movement.  It would simply make the class better off if Divine Light stayed with you.  Maybe make Paladin an A- tier healer.

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6 hours ago, Maverick494 said:

There are almost no use cases for standing and defending a spot.

While still agreeing that Paladin heals should be more mobile, I'll state the one use-case we've found where it works well as-is: you are leading the charge on a big zerg vs zerg battle. You jump into the enemy lines to attempt to disrupt their squishies and you drop your heal circle. If they fight there, great. If they fall back, also great because while you move out of your heal circle to follow them and keep the pressure up, your own team's backline is now moving up into your heal circles aka where the fight was at 5 seconds ago.

So it's not terrible, when it works like that. And if a lot of beefy types leap in with you, you can have an extended beef on beef throwdown in your heal circle.

It basically forces Templars to play very aggressively. If you stay back to heal, not only are you not doing damage but your heal circles quickly become irrelevant.

In smaller fights, though, we really see the problem because there is no "front line" to jump into. It's 5-10 very mobile people all running around. Templars basically end up not feeling useful as fights get smaller. We are almost a zerg-only class.

 

Incidentally, one easy fix I would apply to Paladin Divine Light would be to make the cooldown on recast be 1 second, but any new casting replaces the previous one. So you can "spam" Divine Light, which is to say, keep dropping it again, essentially moving it around with a button press. That should be easy to implement and I don't see where that's a problem for Paladins. (You wouldn't want to do it for Vindicators or Furies but it's not as big of a problem for them.)

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7 hours ago, Maverick494 said:

After a couple weeks on Dregs and now FvF, you're entirely wrong. There are almost no use cases for standing and defending a spot. There is about 15 minutes 3 days a week when forts/keeps come up to do that.  That's it, why? because it isn't worth capping anything in the first 45 minutes it's open. There is no incentive to hold anything for an hour. Other than that, this game is moving in the open between spots, which take very little time to cap, and lots of fighting in between with massive amounts of movement. The PALADIN specialization of this class feels absolutely worthless in the majority of game play.

You're just like every other person who thinks spot based localization healing is meaningful.  It's not.  Let's play your game and assume it is - then we need to be able to move that spot without it being tied to a long cool down because the spot moved and is ever moving.

Just last night I was one of two healers, and you aren't even talking about how broken it is that you HAVE TO HAVE two healers to even remotely compete, and the group is constantly yelling for heals and my answer is "You moved out of it and it's on cooldown" or "My one direct heal is on cooldown".  I even use friar, but the amount of healing that does is pathetic. (This is from the fights just last night even and many others before that)

So you have a storm of just awful mechanics - localized healing, long cooldowns, and barely noticeable healing amounts. So, you're absolutely right they need to tear Paladin and probably fury down to the ground and rebuild it to not be the blue outhouse it is.

The state of healing in this game in general is just pathetically bad, with so many ranged that can chunk off more than you can hope to heal for in every single cooldown is not even funny.  Plus almost every other class has a form of self-sustain.

And before you are like derp derp gear or vessel - I am on crafted gear with 1300+ support power and a blue vessel.

As a last mention here - why is it that ace development partners are the ones I see the most railing against the state of paladin? why are they the ones always pooping the idea that something is broken and not working well? Sad that is going to be associated with the DEVs and their lack of respect for a CONSTANT theme for this specialization having a poor experience. Unless the only word that counts is MrErad who plays a confessor now except when he sometimes opts to kill level 28 players and says the spec is fine because they zerg rolled some low level newbs. 

Jesus christ calm down.

I get it. You don't don't defend outposts and you don't do PvE and you want to play paladin at stuff its bad at for 23 hours a day 4 days a week.

I want to play brigand all the time. I don't because its a bad idea befause brigand sucks at a lot of kinds of content. I play a different class when I'm doing stuff brigand sucks at. That's why I have multiple character slots.

The constant theme of the spec is "stand in circle, you are constrained to circle"

You don't like the theme of the class, but that is literally the theme of the class. This is not a new complaint and I very much doubt the core concept of the templar is going to change at this point.

You think damage is out of control and literally everyone including the developers agree with you. They agree with you so hard they were about to ram through an extremely low effort balance change to fix it until virtually everyone told them to slow down and think about what they're doing before they do it.

You're piling on some kind of laundry list of personal grievances and stuff that has nothing to do with me like I'm a lens for everything that has gone wrong in your life or have any control whatsoever of the development of this game. Believe me, if I did a lot of parts of this game would be different. "Dev partner" literally only means "person who spent entirely too much money in kickstarter." It is not a hive mind or secret cabal. We don't have secret meeting where we sit in darkened rooms smoking cigars plotting your downfall. We are not an organization any more than everyone that was smart and only paid 40 bucks for the game is an organization. This is not a club. It's a CVS reciept.

I don't know why you decided to dump all this on me personally but please, for your own sake, chill for a sec man.

Templars suck in moving fights. They have always sucked in moving fights. Their thing is that they're awesome 1vx in static fights and suck in moving fights.

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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9 hours ago, Maverick494 said:

After a couple weeks on Dregs and now FvF, you're entirely wrong. There are almost no use cases for standing and defending a spot. There is about 15 minutes 3 days a week when forts/keeps come up to do that.  That's it, why? because it isn't worth capping anything in the first 45 minutes it's open. There is no incentive to hold anything for an hour. Other than that, this game is moving in the open between spots, which take very little time to cap, and lots of fighting in between with massive amounts of movement. The PALADIN specialization of this class feels absolutely worthless in the majority of game play.

You're just like every other person who thinks spot based localization healing is meaningful.  It's not.  Let's play your game and assume it is - then we need to be able to move that spot without it being tied to a long cool down because the spot moved and is ever moving.

Just last night I was one of two healers, and you aren't even talking about how broken it is that you HAVE TO HAVE two healers to even remotely compete, and the group is constantly yelling for heals and my answer is "You moved out of it and it's on cooldown" or "My one direct heal is on cooldown".  I even use friar, but the amount of healing that does is pathetic. (This is from the fights just last night even and many others before that)

So you have a storm of just awful mechanics - localized healing, long cooldowns, and barely noticeable healing amounts. So, you're absolutely right they need to tear Paladin and probably fury down to the ground and rebuild it to not be the blue outhouse it is.

The state of healing in this game in general is just pathetically bad, with so many ranged that can chunk off more than you can hope to heal for in every single cooldown is not even funny.  Plus almost every other class has a form of self-sustain.

And before you are like derp derp gear or vessel - I am on crafted gear with 1300+ support power and a blue vessel.

As a last mention here - why is it that ace development partners are the ones I see the most railing against the state of paladin? why are they the ones always pooping the idea that something is broken and not working well? Sad that is going to be associated with the DEVs and their lack of respect for a CONSTANT theme for this specialization having a poor experience. Unless the only word that counts is MrErad who plays a confessor now except when he sometimes opts to kill level 28 players and says the spec is fine because they zerg rolled some low level newbs. 

Thats funny I still play my paladin.  1300 SP on a blue? On my common vessel im running 1110 since I'm switching off nethari back to human so downgrade in vessel. I could easily push that to 1300-1400 without weapon and also  I dont have the Humbly duty stat pack for the +40 Spirit . If I were to equip one of our blue swords & retool my stat packages I should be at 1495 on the common vessel alone.  Throw on a blue vessel when I get to that point I should be pushing 1600 easily.  Hell we havent even gotten into jewelry or upgrading majors/minors yet.

Still sounds like a poor player problem , some not so optimal gear and that the Paladin isnt the role for you.  Then again as you put it you have experience with Paladins from other games. So what do I know.

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10 hours ago, Maverick494 said:

And before you are like derp derp gear or vessel - I am on crafted gear with 1300+ support power and a blue vessel.

Your support power is insanely low for being on a blue vessel in crafted gear. Where are all your stats? What's your domains? Wtf is going on here?

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Well let's see, if this calculator is still right, it's 800 support power for 200 spirit +400 support power for being a Paladin = 1200 base. At +4 support per spirit, what's a blue vessel get you? If it's +40 spirit for a total of 240 that's still only 1360 support.

And now you're hitting like a wet noodle because your strength is garbage. Arguably that's reasonable for a Paladin but it's hard to harass the enemy squishies if you're gently slapping them with a fish.

I'd like to see these "1600 easily" loadouts and what they look like in terms of gear and what kinda damage you manage to still do.

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10 hours ago, Slamz said:

Well let's see, if this calculator is still right, it's 800 support power for 200 spirit +400 support power for being a Paladin = 1200 base. At +4 support per spirit, what's a blue vessel get you? If it's +40 spirit for a total of 240 that's still only 1360 support.

And now you're hitting like a wet noodle because your strength is garbage. Arguably that's reasonable for a Paladin but it's hard to harass the enemy squishies if you're gently slapping them with a fish.

I'd like to see these "1600 easily" loadouts and what they look like in terms of gear and what kinda damage you manage to still do.

The Squishies are the reasonable things to hit with the low strength.  Your first job is to heal any extra damage is to add to the group or CC.  So primary damage is usually righteous parry , executes ( i pick this up on all templars) and keeping melees off the other players.  If that one isn't an option then you press the squishes but that also depends on majors , talent picks etc. 

If you're looking for more damage then your healing will be subpar the only other way to augment that is to go something like a Nethari Paladin heal spec use Holy Avenger for Battle Chant.  Using devotion + chant and staying on top of someone to heal the group since it procs at 1s intervals like devotion.  Pair this with holy warrior  and you have holy damage coming from chant , call to flames (poor mans damnation) , & any other sources of damage you're doing.   Even exorcist here if you go that as a 2nd major.

Options that I use and usually lean more into Standard or Rune  than I do Naiad

2nd Major - This is more of your choice

Templar -

Rune Caster -  less damage and with all the armor breaks and pen this can help in some situations depending on the classes also get a nice 200sp buff with 100 atk

Justice-

Standard Bearer this will put out roughly the same amount of healing as Divine Light in 2s but only works if they under 35% usually good enough to get your cool downs reset to bring people back up to full

Light -

Naiad another ground AOE  that chains. 

Exorcist you can pair off with devotion but not to find of this one these days due to duration.


The two heals chain healing and soothing winds would be ok too.  Soothing Winds in a group setting you're mainly using it to keep the Paladin trait going for your other heals.  Chain heal is going to be cast on CD but if the Paladin trait is near max this will start doing some crazy heals.

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On 8/27/2021 at 11:18 PM, Slamz said:

Well let's see, if this calculator is still right, it's 800 support power for 200 spirit +400 support power for being a Paladin = 1200 base. At +4 support per spirit, what's a blue vessel get you? If it's +40 spirit for a total of 240 that's still only 1360 support.

And now you're hitting like a wet noodle because your strength is garbage. Arguably that's reasonable for a Paladin but it's hard to harass the enemy squishies if you're gently slapping them with a fish.

I'd like to see these "1600 easily" loadouts and what they look like in terms of gear and what kinda damage you manage to still do.

Ignore Erad, he exaggerates a lot. It is not "easy" to get to 1600 support power.  I said 1300+ on purpose because I run anywhere between 1378 and 1453 depending on what I am running.  You could get to 1600 with a Legendary disc that has 100 support power and a 100 + support power crafted weapon and  the support power aura. It's a very specific setup though and would just barely get me to 1600 support power.

Last night in Dregs the best heals I had were only about 2K from a crit on healing burst, but both the locational healing spells didn't even get to be used to full effect because the "team" moved out of them fast, even on a "point defense" because we were out zerged. Hax came with 50-60 to our 30-35. So the locational healing got left behind as the leader ordered us to retreat out and try and kite.

So what if I could get another 150 support power, is that suddenly going to make my heals 4-5K? Is it suddenly going to make them move? No, it's not and it doesn't change the fact that the only place the templar is useful for anything is a tiny fraction of time in fort / keep defense. It doesn't change the fact that locational healing, low healing amounts, and not much else in the toolkit is no where near effective. It's pretty pathetic that all these people are railing against a change to the Paladin spec to make it more useful in situations outside of 15 minute count down defense a few times a week.

There is a reason that almost every templar you see is a Vindi. There is a reason that last night in Dregs I was the ONLY Paladin out of 10 templars.

Edited by Maverick494
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9 hours ago, Maverick494 said:

Ignore Erad, he exaggerates a lot. It is not "easy" to get to 1600 support power.  I said 1300+ on purpose because I run anywhere between 1378 and 1453 depending on what I am running.  You could get to 1600 with a Legendary disc that has 100 support power and a 100 + support power crafted weapon and  the support power aura. It's a very specific setup though and would just barely get me to 1600 support power.

Last night in Dregs the best heals I had were only about 2K from a crit on healing burst, but both the locational healing spells didn't even get to be used to full effect because the "team" moved out of them fast, even on a "point defense" because we were out zerged. Hax came with 50-60 to our 30-35. So the locational healing got left behind as the leader ordered us to retreat out and try and kite.

So what if I could get another 150 support power, is that suddenly going to make my heals 4-5K? Is it suddenly going to make them move? No, it's not and it doesn't change the fact that the only place the templar is useful for anything is a tiny fraction of time in fort / keep defense. It doesn't change the fact that locational healing, low healing amounts, and not much else in the toolkit is no where near effective. It's pretty pathetic that all these people are railing against a change to the Paladin spec to make it more useful in situations outside of 15 minute count down defense a few times a week.

There is a reason that almost every templar you see is a Vindi. There is a reason that last night in Dregs I was the ONLY Paladin out of 10 templars.

Exaggerating how?  I'm at 1195 and missing Humble Duty in an uncommon no philo.  With a respec with Humble duty 1282 before equipment.  Throw on a sword that has 150sp that isn't even the best it can be at Rare that would be a base 1432. I'm running a green transcendent warrior haven't upgraded the thing to blue or higher yet so no bonus SP  but +75 from a white you're looking at 1507sp.   1600 is very achievable even without transcendent warrior or hitting legend discs.

Now if we're talking legend disc which still isnt crazy hard to get depending on your choices.  +200 SP can be achieved.  You're already at 1632 by my build with legend.  No jewelry an ok blue sword in an uncommon vessel.  If you're justice or protection the Rune Shield Minor is pretty easy to get and thats another 100 sp.     So what 1732 just from legend discs.  Yeesh looks like nearing 2k might be really hard too!

Fyi Critical healing burst 1938 without Paladin trait humble duty talent chosen going @1385sp with 2 junk blue rings.   If you're best was barely over 2k with the paladin trait going I'm guessing you're damage or some hybrid spec.


If you want change I would address things how our Ultimate sucks.  Its ok but its not a 1k power ult or how our Paladin trait is group only.  That alone if it had an effect on us would change up some builds.  Divine light being a bit like spirtual presence for paladins so it moves with us maybe ( I won't deny im jealous of arbiters for this skill).  Hell even removing protection and give us an offensive domain like fire for paladins.  Why are things like shock trooper justice only.  If this was tagged templar would give another interesting mechanic to the class.   Healing is one of the few things that isn't an issue.


 

Edited by MrErad
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14 hours ago, Maverick494 said:

Ignore Erad, he exaggerates a lot. It is not "easy" to get to 1600 support power.  I said 1300+ on purpose because I run anywhere between 1378 and 1453 depending on what I am running.  You could get to 1600 with a Legendary disc that has 100 support power and a 100 + support power crafted weapon and  the support power aura. It's a very specific setup though and would just barely get me to 1600 support power.

You claim you are in crafted gear, on blue+ vessel, either your vessel is wack or your stat allocation is poor to have such low support power.

On 8/27/2021 at 5:13 AM, Maverick494 said:

And before you are like derp derp gear or vessel - I am on crafted gear with 1300+ support power and a blue vessel."

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On 9/3/2021 at 6:56 PM, PezDSpnzr said:

You claim you are in crafted gear, on blue+ vessel, either your vessel is wack or your stat allocation is poor to have such low support power.

On 8/27/2021 at 5:13 AM, Maverick494 said:

And before you are like derp derp gear or vessel - I am on crafted gear with 1300+ support power and a blue vessel."

cool story bro. Thanks for the opinion.

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