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Necromancy is Garbage: Change My Mind


Slamz
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Getting legendary/legendary for any crafting discipline is a long road but for necromancy it's especially ridiculous.

Jewelcrafting: kinda ridiculous but a) you don't really need jewelry, like you aren't blocked from advancement without it and b) the rough gems you need are a byproduct of farming ore motherloads and everyone wants more ore.

Necromancy: you need what this produces. Everyone needs it. You need it for every alt. "but it's one use only and in the end necros will have nothing to do" Let's have some real talk. Probably most of you reading this will have quit the game before necros stop being needed. You will probably quit the game before you have leveled all of your alts to 35. The idea that necros reach a point where they are not needed is a hopelessly optimistic view of how long this game is going to keep us all entertained. As such, I declare that argument moot and void, but feel free to check back in a year.

To add insult to injury, the byproduct of farming minerals is stone. Way more stone than anyone wants or needs. You can always find blacksmiths ready to hop to gem farming because they want the ore, but bang the dinnerbell on mineral farming and it's a chore because the yield is relatively low and the byproduct is largely unwanted. (You'd think stonemasons would want it all but that is an entirely different complaint thread. I just assume I don't need a "Stonemasonry is Garbage: Change My Mind" thread because everyone already knows it.)

 

In conclusion, Necromancy is garbage. They made it into an awful combination of mandatory, time consuming, with a byproduct that generates more than anyone wants and if you don't have access to it then you can't advance your characters.

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I think its a little more nuanced than necromancy being bad.

Necromancy is good. There are some questionable additives but the general concept of the system as it exists is pretty good.

Necromancy progression (and basically all crafting/harvesting progression) is garbage. The extreme amount of cost to get a 50% chance at a drop for literally one green disc is ridiculous compared to basically every other craft in the game. The RNG disc drop system in general is a terrible system. The extremely high gold based upgrade costs, after having to deal with that RNG, and at low levels having to grind even harder to even try to roll for a disc because your crafted items cost 2x or 4x as much is a terribly designed system that places the majority of the grind right at the front, where you also have less harvested mats coming in in stead of near the end where your harvesting is actually benefitting from all that increased volume.

Grind versus need for necromancy (and basically all crafting and harvesting) is garbage, and more broadly across all of crafting is far too slanted toward grinding rather than using items. This is especially true in harvesting, and this mechanism as applied to harvesting spills over in to making an already ridiculous crafting grind even worse.

Fixing the progression of harvesting and crafting, and the grind of harvesting and crafting is not only to most direct way to fix nearly every issue the game has, but the easiest thing to fix in the game.

Literally you just edit the harvesting loot tables to 3x, edit the disc drop chance numbers to all read 100%, and edit the crafting recipe costs to remove the idioting double costs on the low end. You change a handful of variables, write literally zero new code or systems, and the game is instantly more accessible and fun, with less grind and more people using stuff. You have an economy where everything is more accessible and as a result more people have those things, and in the case of decaying things, people decay them more often, and new players aren't sitting around wondering why they seem to not be able to get anywhere.

Edited by PopeUrban

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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True. Until they give necro something to craft that decays, necro will be "bad" because it is designed to "end". I would like to be able to craft undead armies to bolster the defense of a structure that only requires body parts (no minerals) and additives. Or setup a perimeter of scouts (with stealth detection) to alert you of incoming gankers.

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1 minute ago, Wanini said:

True. Until they give necro something to craft that decays, necro will be "bad" because it is designed to "end". I would like to be able to craft undead armies to bolster the defense of a structure that only requires body parts (no minerals) and additives. Or setup a perimeter of scouts (with stealth detection) to alert you of incoming gankers.

maybe mounts with movement speed and recovery stats

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Yes it is a big flaw but like you mentioned there is maybe no fix to provide because when everyone will be on lvl35, let's try to be honest like you said, we do not know what will be the status of the game.

Anyway Necro will still be interesting for reroll or delete/replace character because of some "rebalanced patch" but yes you won't use it all the time. In a way it is really more of a "guild" profession so I do not care too much if it is going to be not so used.

IMHO ambrosia should have never been part of alchemy, same for the philosopher stone used for vessel, so you it really mean in fact most necro has lvl up too their alchemy (the most dummy easy craft to lvl up), let's see the positive face of it you were force to do another craft :) (Like I did)

Another point is for new players (hell if it happens and they stay is another story) it is really a strong guild advantage.

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If the game is healthy, that means there will always be new players, and new players will always need vessels. If the game isn't attracting new players, then it hardly matters whether necromancy is working or not. 

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The part that can't be understated is the progression idiocy is compounded exponentially for necromancy beyond what it is for other crafting professions.  Considering you also have to...

Level an alchemist so they can make Ambrosia (and Philosopher stones) efficiently -- without it you're stuck

Level a quarrier so they can actually hit a motherlode (and/or a logger for grubs, an alchemist/skinner for potions etc.) -- without it you are stuck

Level a runecrafter so they can make advanced tools to harvest motherlodes with (and make tools that can have a soulgem so you can get access to things like Foreman) -- without it you may as well not waste your time

 

Interdependency is a good design in general.

Even the grinding I believe is a good thing to some extent as it gives a reason for people to be out in the world and thus more opportunity for roaming PvP and small group play.

We can debate specific choices and general balance of how its been implemented here, but the base premise isn't so much the issue.  I won't even argue that it is meant more for large guilds and not smaller ones.

 

But the point about necromancy in particular as compared to any other crafting profession, is that you aren't completely locked from making any progress whatsoever like you are with necromancy for something that is so gating for overall gameplay.

You can absolutely get by with looted weapons and armor.  Optimal, no, get by yes.  Or do without potions or jewelry or whatever.  Unless you want to be level 30 forever, then you need to figure out how to make necromancy not so bottlenecked at every step.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Arsilon said:

I won't even argue that it is meant more for large guilds and not smaller ones.

Which is nuts, too, because everyone needs vessels. One might argue that legendary weapons are meant for large guilds, not smaller ones, but that would be okay because you don't need legendary weapons.

Necromancy being in the realm of elite gamers only makes no sense unless the developers felt that most players should be stuck at level 30 forever.

(Although based on other comments and decisions, my impression is that the developers really expected players to abandon their small guilds, even ones they had been with for many years, purely because Crowfall demands it.)

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8 hours ago, Arsilon said:

The part that can't be understated is the progression idiocy is compounded exponentially for necromancy beyond what it is for other crafting professions.  Considering you also have to...

Level an alchemist so they can make Ambrosia (and Philosopher stones) efficiently -- without it you're stuck

Level a quarrier so they can actually hit a motherlode (and/or a logger for grubs, an alchemist/skinner for potions etc.) -- without it you are stuck

Level a runecrafter so they can make advanced tools to harvest motherlodes with (and make tools that can have a soulgem so you can get access to things like Foreman) -- without it you may as well not waste your time

Interdependency being a good or bad thing aside, this is not any less true for any other profession.

Take Weaponsmith

Level a Leatherworker to make the grips

Level a skinner to farm the leather

Level a miner to farm the ore

Level a runecrafter for advanced tools

You cant really make good gear with out rings/ammy. Do we now add on leveling a jewelcrafter?

Want to craft and harvest more efficiently? You now need a necro, that needs an alchemist, that needs quarryman and a gravedigger. That jewelcrafter is going to need a stonemason partially leveled as well.

 

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2 hours ago, Yoink said:

Interdependency being a good or bad thing aside, this is not any less true for any other profession.

Take Weaponsmith

Level a Leatherworker to make the grips

Level a skinner to farm the leather

Level a miner to farm the ore

Level a runecrafter for advanced tools

You cant really make good gear with out rings/ammy. Do we now add on leveling a jewelcrafter?

Want to craft and harvest more efficiently? You now need a necro, that needs an alchemist, that needs quarryman and a gravedigger. That jewelcrafter is going to need a stonemason partially leveled as well.

 

Totally agree.  However, people can progress, albeit not optimally, without ever having a weapon crafted for them. 

 

And a Weaponsmith can make at least some gear without having all those other supporting crafters leveled too.  Necromancer you can't even really get started until all those other crafters are already leveled up.

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

You hit the nail on the head with necromancy being your main form of progression while also being incredibly hard to level up. I don't think most players will even interact with necromancy, despite me thinking it's one of the most creative crafts I've seen in a while. Sadly, it feels like the craft should be simplified into something that any player can do solo. I know that sounds weird, but too many people are going to take 1 look at necromancy and just decide to stay at level 30 forever. Then they are going to get creamed in PvP and not enjoy the game, because they aren't progressing.

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On 8/29/2021 at 1:47 PM, Slamz said:

Although based on other comments and decisions, my impression is that the developers really expected players to abandon their small guilds, even ones they had been with for many years, purely because Crowfall demands it.

The fact that the developers have denied this on several occasions yet haven't done anything meaningful about the problem yet supports your observations. I'm really hoping the Feedback on small/medium PvP thread delivers some results. There are some good ideas on it. 

As for Necro, I agree there should be more long term solutions. I like the improved mounts idea. Being able to make Vendors just isn't enough. 

As the Necromancer for a small guild, it takes a lot of time to gather all the materials needed and make the vessels, so a lot of my game time is based around allowing my guild progress, while I can't. Maybe that won't be the case when more people get advanced Quarrying, but I still need to advance Grave Digging to keep up with demand on Alts and also be able to dig up the Legendary parts that will inevitably be needed. 

If only more support was given to small guilds, so we could justify keeping members by letting us compete in Dregs.

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