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taroskin

The Issue Is Not Campaign Permanence: We Need An Iron Throne

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Im torn on the EK and a call for change even before we know much of anything about the game.

 

Well, absolutely. But we can only give feedback to what we know, right? And because the game is at such an early stage they can take our feedback and make sure it's heard and acted on if they feel so inclined. The reasons for this thread are because this is actually a very large issue. The Shadowbane, Darkfall and hardcore communities all have this major concern, and even threads on MMORPG.com and on this site here at Crowfall are regularly popping up.

 

The single biggest issue for modern games in regards to PvP mechanics is that they mean nothing. So far, Crowfall could be making the same mistake. We don't want to see the guys here make that mistake because it would be so simple to rectify based on their design, and we care for their vision so far. That's the important takeaway here. Even more importantly - this game has a fraction of the PvE content those games have, so it's even more important to get the PvP right.

 

Is it bad while reading the section titles I read the logo outloud as "Crow"

 

Hah, I felt weird about using that as the logo. But it's pretty cool :)

Edited by taroskin

Crazy Talk co-co-co-gl

Guardians of Moonforest fangirl

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I do like your idea. I like it very much.

 

That said, why do you think your actions won't have meaning? I see lots of options.

 

For instance, we're reaping souls for our gods. Do you not think that will have some sort of effect? That the god that has the most reaping will not have some sort of reward for his/her/its faithful?

 

Is it the permanence of a reward that you find missing? That there needs to be trophy to vie for? Something to show that you're "winning"?

 

I don't play this way. I set my own personal goals, so I can't really understand the need for your proposal and was just hoping for some insight into the mindset.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I do like your idea. I like it very much.

 

That said, why do you think your actions won't have meaning? I see lots of options.

 

For instance, we're reaping souls for our gods. Do you not think that will have some sort of effect? That the god that has the most reaping will not have some sort of reward for his/her/its faithful?

 

Is it the permanence of a reward that you find missing? That there needs to be trophy to vie for? Something to show that you're "winning"?

 

I don't play this way. I set my own personal goals, so I can't really understand the need for your proposal and was just hoping for some insight into the mindset.

Of course, I'll be happy to give you that insight! It's essentially that the more competitive communities don't see the "cosmetic" nature of the EK as truly a representation of their success. A game mechanic, such as thrones, or static kingdoms to rule over, titles, etc that involve some form of risk/reward that feeds conflict in the Campaigns would be a great representation of success.

 

I'll give you an example. In Shadowbane, if I was winning and doing well - I had these "R8" cities, of which only a few can exist. They basically meant I ruled a part of the world and gained some special benefits due to that. Everyone could see this, and they coveted the bonuses and mere status symbol of the R8 Cities, so this fueled war in the game. Alliances were made to protect these, scoundrels stole them, guilds tried to amass them and they motivated gameplay enormously, as normal cities did too, of course.This is an example of the element that EK is missing.

 

With tangible goals that persist and are visible to all, coveted by many, there will follow alliances, political intrigue, backstabbing, wars and a constant changing set of rules. Sound familar? Because that's what a true Game of Thrones should be. Well, that's the idea anyway, perceived from the PvP/Competitive crowd.

 

It's true there could be a mechanic that they have yet to revealed, such as you described, but until they reveal it I think showing our concern is valid so we can help them along with their vision. :)

Edited by taroskin

Crazy Talk co-co-co-gl

Guardians of Moonforest fangirl

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Indeed. It's just trying to ensure that the competitive crowd has something meaningful to compete for, just as the more crafting/builder/social based gamers will enjoy creating things in their personal EKs. Without that meaningful thing driving competition, political intrigue, replayability and ultimately competition will suffer. Though the "Iron Throne" is more of a metaphor for whatever mechanic they think fits their vision, and isn't necessarily just "one" thing.

Edited by taroskin

Crazy Talk co-co-co-gl

Guardians of Moonforest fangirl

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Really awesome post man, impressed with your presentation too.

 

I get where the team came from regarding EK rewards in kickstarter but I really think the paid benefits from the larger tier rewards are going to end up giving them some design/balance issues when it comes to EKs and the importance of EK land plots.


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lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

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I, for the most part, agree with your idea. 
ACE has yet to say all the details about EK's though, so we will just have to wait and see if they already have something. If not, then I would definitely promote something like this.

EDIT: I think what is missing is the actual symbiosis between the EK and the Campaigns. 

EDIT2: I.e. They still feel disconnected. Yes EK's act as a storage to import/export resources/materials between Campaigns, but the actual purpose of both seems disconnected. 

Edited by Fiblit

Life is not a Destination  -- Enjoy the Journey

Stand back, then, my friend. Stand back, watch and learn.

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To appease the crowd wishing for the EK to have a broader meaning, it needs to find that fine line between a permanent campaign, and a reflection of the success of a guild/individual in the decaying campaigns.

 

I support the EK having a broader meaning. I do not support the EK being just another place for hardcore PVP'er's to get their epeen on.

 

If PVP is open in the EK, then the campaigns lose their worth. Any PVP in the EK needs to be controlled, and specific to the struggle for the Iron Throne. (if that is what such a pinnacle of power is named)

 

I see what you are suggesting, I just don't yet see what the EK needs.

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I support the EK having a broader meaning. I do not support the EK being just another place for hardcore PVP'er's to get their epeen on.

 

If PVP is open in the EK, then the campaigns lose their worth. Any PVP in the EK needs to be controlled, and specific to the struggle for the Iron Throne. (if that is what such a pinnacle of power is named)

This. This exactly. I have been trying to pin this idea down. Thank you for saying it.

Maybe the struggle for the "Iron throne" is represented by the campaigns?

For example, one guild challenges another to a Campaign.

They both go into it, whoever wins gets a political benefit back in the EK.


Life is not a Destination  -- Enjoy the Journey

Stand back, then, my friend. Stand back, watch and learn.

wxDQ4r3.png

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I support the EK having a broader meaning. I do not support the EK being just another place for hardcore PVP'er's to get their epeen on.

 

If PVP is open in the EK, then the campaigns lose their worth. Any PVP in the EK needs to be controlled, and specific to the struggle for the Iron Throne. (if that is what such a pinnacle of power is named)

 

I absolutely agree. It can't just be another campaign and there is a fine line to tread. This is why it must absolutely be dependant on the resources and capital gained from the Campaigns, or success within the campaigns. I'm confident some mechanic could be created to show off success without just becoming another campaign.


Crazy Talk co-co-co-gl

Guardians of Moonforest fangirl

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What you are suggesting feels like a ladder. If you are successfull in the campaigns you will be able to build more and faster in your Kingdom than anybody else , how is that not an indicator of who is "winning" ?

Edited by rajah

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What you are suggesting feels like a ladder. If you are not successfully in campaigns you will be able to build more and faster in your Kingdom than anybody else , how is that not an indicator of who is winning ?

 

Why do I care, as a competitive PvP focused player, how fast you are building golden geese within the safety of your personal kingdom? That is nothing to covet or motivate me at all. This is the crux of the problem. Competitive PVP players, especially from the more hardcore crowds, simply don't place much value on those systems as it currently stands. Besides that point, I would have to travel into your Kingdom to even see that you have those things - when there are literally hundreds of thousands of such kingdoms, do you think that's even kind of likely to happen? Nope.

 

Any sort of measure of success could be construed as a ladder. The idea isn't so though, it's just for a concrete persistent mechanic to show off success that competitive players covet dearly (such as Cities in DF/SB or R8 Cities in SB), and so motivates them to act, forge alliances, get better and fuels political intrigue alongside conflict within the Campaigns. All that is being asked for is more weight and impact for the results of winning a campaign, because what has been shown so far isn't sufficient for the competitive crowd, which is a cold hard fact illustrated by the many threads popping up here and within those more hardcore communities that are saying the same thing. They need more risk, reward and impact.

 

If I log on and see in the Eternal Kingdom that the whole world sees that my arch nemesis Gary "Grumpy" McFartPantsMcGee is the Champion of So&So God, with the reward of an entire extra static kingdom and small benefits within the Campaigns, damn right I'm going to want to dethrone that guy and forge plans to make that happen. I don't want his name in the stars. I don't want him getting those real, tangible benefits and everyone thinking he's so good when I know he's terrible. I will be motivated to get involved, fuel political intrigue and change things. That is a Throne War game.

Edited by taroskin

Crazy Talk co-co-co-gl

Guardians of Moonforest fangirl

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This is where the multiple campaign setups would be incredibly helpful to have.  3 faction and god wars split up players into various groups.  With Divine Cathedrals in your EK, you could essentially "declare" your allegiance.  Linking up EK's via the fealty system (with guilds) builds new kingdoms dedicated towards the gods.  I focus on the god tree because, well, that and the Hunger are the high level drivers of the game, the permanent aspects of an impermanent "reality."  

 

Bringing that kind of setup into the EK's and allowing gods/factions to war, but make campaign completions/victories mean something, makes the EK's worthwhile and the "endgame" of CF in a sense.  Not only that, but it gives ACE an opportunity to further a storyline.  One good aspect about Shadowbane was the lore.  It was fantastic.  CF's lore is building as well.  With SB, the theory is that kingdoms rise and fall and this ominous blade would suddenly turn the tide of war.  With CF, by bringing the gods into play making factions and your allegiance mean something in the EK's, suddenly your story can expand and change further by having Kane gain the upper hand on Arkyn or Gaia making a play on the throne against Valkyn.  

 

The potential is there and the technology can make this possible.  It's just a matter of what devs want to do.  


Gaunsaku

Elder, Lords of the Dead

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Very good post and defiantly deserves attention. I would suggest actually adding the post to Todd's current thread to be honest.

 

I think a lot have the same reservations as brought up. However lucky for us they are allowing us to share them with them and help em along :)

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