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Where is the population?


rakeon
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I am 100% not trolling. I was a backer when this game (and Camerlot Unchained but hey at least Crowfall actually launched) came up on for crowd funding because Shadowbane and DAOC were the most fun pvp I have had in any game. When I tested in beta I was hampered because my PC was an old piece of crap. I put together a new PC and remembered crowfall and launched it up and even used my invite code for my friend only to find..... a dead game. I went from 1 to 30 doing all  the quest chains and I found NOONE ELSE except in the main town with the earth tree and vendors then rarely I would see one or two people.

 

I see no pvp I don't even see people to fight. I love my class and spec, but I joined for pvp. This game is not "play to crush"

Am I doing something wrong, or on an upopulated server or is this game just DOA.

 

You cant have pvp with noone playing.

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6 minutes ago, rakeon said:

I am 100% not trolling. I was a backer when this game (and Camerlot Unchained but hey at least Crowfall actually launched) came up on for crowd funding because Shadowbane and DAOC were the most fun pvp I have had in any game. When I tested in beta I was hampered because my PC was an old piece of crap. I put together a new PC and remembered crowfall and launched it up and even used my invite code for my friend only to find..... a dead game. I went from 1 to 30 doing all  the quest chains and I found NOONE ELSE except in the main town with the earth tree and vendors then rarely I would see one or two people.

 

I see no pvp I don't even see people to fight. I love my class and spec, but I joined for pvp. This game is not "play to crush"

Am I doing something wrong, or on an upopulated server or is this game just DOA.

 

You cant have pvp with noone playing.

You are a day late and a dollar short as the saying goes...

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20 minutes ago, eaos said:

Try the shadows server, join sun or earth faction 

Don't join Sun faction if you are from EU, there is barely anyone playing Sun from EU. Might be better for NA.

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47 minutes ago, rakeon said:

I am 100% not trolling. I was a backer when this game (and Camerlot Unchained but hey at least Crowfall actually launched) came up on for crowd funding because Shadowbane and DAOC were the most fun pvp I have had in any game. When I tested in beta I was hampered because my PC was an old piece of crap. I put together a new PC and remembered crowfall and launched it up and even used my invite code for my friend only to find..... a dead game. I went from 1 to 30 doing all  the quest chains and I found NOONE ELSE except in the main town with the earth tree and vendors then rarely I would see one or two people.

 

I see no pvp I don't even see people to fight. I love my class and spec, but I joined for pvp. This game is not "play to crush"

Am I doing something wrong, or on an upopulated server or is this game just DOA.

 

You cant have pvp with noone playing.

It's pretty dead, for many reasons. Just one of which is the design for Siege, and scoring. Which leads people to only log in during siege windows then log out. They simply designed a game where the design itself makes not playing for extended amounts of time not only viable, but preferable. Why play longer there is nothing to gain, in fact you just increase the decay of your gear.

Instead of allowing anything to be attacked anytime, and creating a short lead up timer. They decided to have long timers, that discourage playing the game, in favor of only logging in on a timer. They could have charged for bane tree seedlings allowing them to be planted in any of the eight(depending on Keep placement) parcels which would start a 30 minute timer to a siege, which would have encouraged more people to play longer. Instead we have day long timers. 

The game is just chock a block full of missed opportunities, to inject interesting, meaningful, and strategic gameplay. No SOI buffs, No real territory control(timer does it for you), No faction buffs, or incentive not to swap,  No rewards for the majority in dregs, just the guild leader, or officers. The game is filled with decisions that drive players away. Most the average player base if not vip can't even get into the non existent economy, go try and build a cottage, vendor stall, and vendor, on a trial account. If you succeed your EK will not even be active long enough to have even a tiny chance of selling anything, unless you just sit in the EK , and once again not play. 

Like no joke, I am just rubbernecking at the train wreck at this point.

It's this easy Dr. Falcon. When playing "Global Thermonuclear War". The only way to win is not to play.

Now... What do you think it would take to teach Joshua about Futility?

Edited by Nichivo
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They listened to the largest alliances full of boomers who think hard work is fun and they ignored everyone else.

The game could be so much better. It's right there. A few small changes and it would actually be fun. We just want to pvp and conquest over connected territory control. Fun pvp mmo. 

But no... 👾 Instead the game favors super serious nerds who care way too much about scoreboard points , oo so exciting. (Not glorious at all)

We get stuck with "you cant fight with crappy gear, you must grind for days to get viable gear, and you get steamrolled by uncle bob 4x in a row and your unrepairable gear breaks, and oh, when uncle bob isn't around, you're not allowed to capture their keeps."

The population dwindles back to pre-launch stagnation instead. Who could have seen this coming??? 🙄

We just want to have fun pvping and the glory of conquesting and pushing territory forward on a warpath.

They keep thinking the current setup is fun. It's not. And so no one will play until they change the blasted game! 🎯🏌️

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1 hour ago, rakeon said:

I am 100% not trolling. ... Am I doing something wrong, or on an upopulated server or is this game just DOA.

To directly answer this question, kind of - yes.  People above are bemoaning the state of the game (which is legit) but what you're asking is more appropriately answered as: The GR/Skypoint loop is not where moat of the PvP happens.  The primary spot would be in the Guild Vs Guild Dregs campaign, then the Shadows Campaigns, then (finally) GR.

 

As most people do not need to level anything at this point if they've been even semi seriously playing wince launch, I'm sure you can reasonably see why they wouldn't spend time there.

 

Welcome (back) to Crowfall!  Hope you have a lovely time and I would strongly urge you and your friend to seek out a guild as it dramatically improves the experience and shortens the learning curve.

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It's not fun fighting 20-40 vs 100. So every small group of 20-40 left and only the 100 are left to play alone in the sandbox. The Devs are taking and allowing for actions that hurt their game and need to turn 180 and focus on gaining and retaining small groups of players.

Not having per member cards on campaign seasonal objectives was at the direct request of bigger guilds that didn't like the threat of smaller more efficient groups having a chance of winning. Devs listening to this request wasn't in their best interest of keeping new and small groups of players playing their game.

I am not sure where the logic is behind the current campaign map. Did  they want to consolidate all the time zones into a single dregs and still allow for some local sieges? If so this is a good want, but when you have 75% of your population in NA to then give equal objectives split among all the time zones is a poor choice. For east coast players we went from fighting over more than 15 keeps to eight? Spread this out over the different days of the week and the bigger guilds can and are monopolizing holding keeps. Fewer objectives to fight over means that the big guys own a larger percentage and smaller guilds have no scraps to fight over. A step in the wrong direction. We need more simultaneous objectives to fight over.

Our community is not new player friendly. You have some guild's who are proud of wiping other guilds out of the game and focus so hard on winning that their "play to crush" mentality is crushing the game. In Beta the community was welcoming. Now, it is a bunch of elitist fairy godmothers. Also, information is coveted and not available to new players. incentivize a better community and disincentivize the cancer of "play to crush" at least until you have a population that can handle a bully in the sandbox.

The quality of life items that should have been implemented day one still arn't there: like a working chat, and in game guild organization tools. You don't get a second chance to make a good first impression.


Keeping and growing the population should be an immediate concern for the Devs above whatever they have planned for two months down the road. Don't add more nuance, fix the basic stuff. Make the game fun, more fair, and new player friendly.

   

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2 hours ago, Nichivo said:

Which leads people to only log in during siege windows then log out

I don't really buy that as an explanation -- it implies people still care about scoring but don't actually like playing.

By way of example, the old MMORPG "PvP servers" had no rewards system at all. There was no scoring, no rewards, no leaderboard. Those servers were WAY busier than Crowfall is today, and they stayed that way for years, all with no reward system at all.

So that's why I think your explanation doesn't work. You're suggesting it's the reward system. I'm saying the reward system is all people apparently care about at all because something is terribly wrong with the gameplay itself.


And I don't entirely know what that problem is. Why did so many people quit so fast? I don't think it was the scoreboard. Or the rewards. I'm kind of leaning towards the idea that Crowfall put itself in a strange position of wanting to be a full-time PvP game while throwing a wrench in the works through their respawn mechanics.

Some comparison games:
Planetside: Full time PvP, no rewards, no one cares about the leaderboard, but the game does everything it can to keep throwing you back into the action and it's so fun that it really keeps people engaged.
Albion: PvE/PvP. Death hurts but I think the PvE content actually helps it because if you get womped by a zerg a couple times you can just go somewhere else and carebear it up a little bit, get some gear and cash and basically keep playing until PvP conditions change. Or go do instanced "fair fights" for a while. You have some options and I think it helps keep death from being a quit point.
EVE: Same as Albion. Death hurts, etc, but there's a lot of other stuff to do. If "the zerg" has you depressed, there's plenty of other places to go and things to do until the PvP circumstances change.

Crowfall, though, is kinda....weird.

There's really nothing to do except PvP. And death does somewhat hurt. If nothing else, death is disruptive and boring because of the way respawns are setup so if the zerg stomps you flat a couple times, well, now what? There's not really anything else to do. You're not going to beat that same zerg on your 6th attempt so.... I think this may be the real quit point for a lot of people. (And it's not much better for the zerg, who soon finds themselves on an hour long tour and no one to fight.)

It's like....
If you're going to be a full time PvP game, then we need Fantasy Planetside. You live! You die! You live again! The player needs to be thrown into the action very quickly and cheaply. If death is supposed to hurt then it can't be a full time PvP game. There must be some other stuff to go do. Crowfall has created a game where death hurts, population imbalances hurt continuously and there is nothing else to do.

Edited by Slamz
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36 minutes ago, Slamz said:

I don't really buy that as an explanation -- it implies people still care about scoring but don't actually like playing.

By way of example, the old MMORPG "PvP servers" had no rewards system at all. There was no scoring, no rewards, no leaderboard. Those servers were WAY busier than Crowfall is today, and they stayed that way for years, all with no reward system at all.

So that's why I think your explanation doesn't work. You're suggesting it's the reward system. I'm saying the reward system is all people apparently care about at all because something is terribly wrong with the gameplay itself.

People in these very forums have already stated they only log in for Siege windows. What is so hard to believe about someone logging into score, then logging out because the actual game play loop isn't actually fun, and doesn't really exist. It's a timer. 

Old MMORPGs, actually had fully designed games with plenty to do. They didn't go out of their way to add design features that make playing annoying.

I'm not saying it's the reward system. The reward system is only one of the many cogs that doesn't fit in the current wheel. 

Planetside was actually score driven, the forums were rich with Outfits and Alliances bragging about days, and weeks of controlling the majority of Auraxis.

Albion you yourself just stated had more content.

EVE I never bothered with eve, the monetization turned me off from the start, it's not fun for me if I can throw my wallet, and solve issues. I have a fat wallet it would bore me to death. I will defer to your assessment. you stated it has plenty of other content.

Crowfall has what exactly? A timer that dictates when you do anything, and allows you to leverage more people because you have an entire day to do so. There are no surprise attacks no strategy, no large amount of other things to do, and when those who only log for siege windows log out, there went the bulk of your pvp. 

Nope! I stand by my assessment, there simple is a lack of an actual strategy game in Crowfall that would entice people to stay logged. Especially if they profit while playing something more intriguing. Then you have those that simply don't ever see any rewards, and go play something that gives them a sense of accomplishing something.

I mean if you want me to change my mind. Offer me a reason. Give me something Crowfall does so well, that I can't get anywhere else in more abundant, and enjoyable

quantities. What does Crowfall offer me, that would entice me to stay logged in all day?

Edited by Nichivo
I clearly can't type today
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2 hours ago, Slamz said:

I don't really buy that as an explanation -- it implies people still care about scoring but don't actually like playing.

By way of example, the old MMORPG "PvP servers" had no rewards system at all. There was no scoring, no rewards, no leaderboard. Those servers were WAY busier than Crowfall is today, and they stayed that way for years, all with no reward system at all.

So that's why I think your explanation doesn't work. You're suggesting it's the reward system. I'm saying the reward system is all people apparently care about at all because something is terribly wrong with the gameplay itself.


And I don't entirely know what that problem is. Why did so many people quit so fast? I don't think it was the scoreboard. Or the rewards. I'm kind of leaning towards the idea that Crowfall put itself in a strange position of wanting to be a full-time PvP game while throwing a wrench in the works through their respawn mechanics.

Some comparison games:
Planetside: Full time PvP, no rewards, no one cares about the leaderboard, but the game does everything it can to keep throwing you back into the action and it's so fun that it really keeps people engaged.
Albion: PvE/PvP. Death hurts but I think the PvE content actually helps it because if you get womped by a zerg a couple times you can just go somewhere else and carebear it up a little bit, get some gear and cash and basically keep playing until PvP conditions change. Or go do instanced "fair fights" for a while. You have some options and I think it helps keep death from being a quit point.
EVE: Same as Albion. Death hurts, etc, but there's a lot of other stuff to do. If "the zerg" has you depressed, there's plenty of other places to go and things to do until the PvP circumstances change.

Crowfall, though, is kinda....weird.

There's really nothing to do except PvP. And death does somewhat hurt. If nothing else, death is disruptive and boring because of the way respawns are setup so if the zerg stomps you flat a couple times, well, now what? There's not really anything else to do. You're not going to beat that same zerg on your 6th attempt so.... I think this may be the real quit point for a lot of people. (And it's not much better for the zerg, who soon finds themselves on an hour long tour and no one to fight.)

It's like....
If you're going to be a full time PvP game, then we need Fantasy Planetside. You live! You die! You live again! The player needs to be thrown into the action very quickly and cheaply. If death is supposed to hurt then it can't be a full time PvP game. There must be some other stuff to go do. Crowfall has created a game where death hurts, population imbalances hurt continuously and there is nothing else to do.

The problem is Crowfall is not a full fledged MMO. Pvp is sort of meaningless for smaller guilds, and even for bigger guilds capping outposts in the first two seasons isn't really worth it. The world doesn't really feel alive, there isn't enough to fight over, and there generally isn't much to do except for harvesting. 

 

Hence it plays more like a BR game. You log in, you do an hour of roaming or sieging, you log off again. Other people log in to harvest, crafters log in to craft. That's about the whole game. 

Hello

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7 hours ago, WolfsRain said:

Pvp is sort of meaningless for smaller guilds

I'm okay with that though. That's why I mention how all the old PvP games didn't have rewards anyway so you mostly did PvP for the joy of the PvP. I'll kill ya for free!

Basically I hope the devs don't focus too much on "rewards" because I really don't think that's the core problem.

I think maybe the core problem is...well...lots of things...but there's something wrong with the "feel" of never knowing what you're getting into until you're in it and then it's a long, dumb crow flight back to look at your damaged stuff if it turns out you were ready for two full groups to show up but they brought 87 people. And there's often no escape. By the time you realize how bad it is, it's over, or near enough, and whatever escape abilities you had won't be a match for all the people chasing you with their own closers.


Maybe one idea would be to remove degradation on death and just increase degradation on use. Make it so that every 10 seconds of combat represents a "round" of damage. Hmm. With something like that in place, it would mean that two barbarians beating on each other in a 30 minute fight end up destroying their gear but someone caught out by the zerg who dies in 3 seconds takes only the 1 round of damage. It would also mean that all 32 people who hit you take 1 round of damage each. Damage is decreased significantly if you only got hit by NPCs... I dunno. That's still not the whole answer but at least it would take some of the sting out of "sudden death" where you go from "I see someone" to "oh hell".

Edited by Slamz
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7 hours ago, Slamz said:

I'm okay with that though. That's why I mention how all the old PvP games didn't have rewards anyway so you mostly did PvP for the joy of the PvP. I'll kill ya for free!

What you call "just for the joy of PVP" is minimalizing a critical piece missing from the Crowfall puzzle - engaging moment to moment gameplay. EVE is the exception and we can get to that later.  In UO and most other MMOs with PVP, there were many touchpoints for doing something fun or engaging. Things to fight, activities to do, items to collect/harvest, or even just rearranging the items in your bag/inventory to fit your needs or preferred aesthetics. 

I used to put surveys in the EVE newsletter. I'd talk to the players at Fanfest and review all the round table videos. The main reason I'd do that is because a big part of my job at CCP was related to acquisition/retention. It was overwhelming how many players said that EVE had a lot of downtime but the epic battles made the downtime worth it. In EVE, "the joy of PVP" was being in the (sometimes record-breaking) battles. The size of the population and the number of PVP playstyles catered to - wolf pack, Factional Warfare, nullsec, low sec, Alliance warfare - give a lot of EVE's PVP players daily or weekly bursts of fun to look forward to. 

 

A lot goes into providing "the joy of PVP" in an MMO. 

 

 

Edited by BucDen
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You free level and farm when none are around, and join a established player in the end game and do GvG Dregs

Edited by Represent
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2 hours ago, BucDen said:

A lot goes into providing "the joy of PVP" in an MMO. 

Yeah for sure, and I think this is where I've been going with saying something feels wrong in the core of Crowfall.

And really I shouldn't bash rewards too much because those are important too. PvP servers in PvE games were mainly about fighting over the PvE content. We won, this is our dungeon now, we get the loot. Also pretty much the basis of a lot of Albion combat. Since Crowfall lacks that, it does need a reward system of some type -- something to fight for or over.

But yeah, "the joy of PvP" is a separate issue. Winning the dungeon or getting the big reward doesn't keep players coming back if the fight itself isn't fun or interesting.

I'm just trying to put my finger on the problem with Crowfall's "joy of PvP". It's there. I feel it sometimes. But it's too rare. Too much downtime between too many lopsided fights. I don't know that "make the fights fair" is a path we want to take because that road is a minefield, but maybe something can be done to reduce the pain points and get players back to fighting more quickly.

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4 hours ago, Jubileet said:

Translation:

No one is around. Farm like its a 40 hour a week fulltime job. Then when you are so bored of farming alone, join the dregs and stand around your guild's keep during the nightly siege window waiting for someone to attack, but no one ever does. Its how to have fun 101!

It would be great if you simply didn't need to sit around.

Want to go launch an attack on a keep, buy a bane tree sapling, and go plant it in one of the 8 surrounding parcels, poof a  siege in 30 minutes when the tree matures in the hidden location. Enemy needs to find the tree to destroy it requiring scouts. Enemy has thirty minutes to rally troops even if they are currently in another siege, let free flowing strategic combats ensue, will you leave your attack to defend your own keep if someone plants a tree? The choice is yours, but you will not be standing around.

Less zerg more forcing people to split up. More interesting game play, with anything being possible from one minute to the next. It would be fairly simple to also give forts a similar yet different, "no long timer treatment". Get some spheres of influence going on, create a more dynamic, minute to minute scoring system. Make people want to actively play, and stay logged.

Want to add twists in the above? Have a no draws mechanic, if a siege last for an hour the Wartribes swarm the area and attempt taking the keep for themselves. Cue Beefy Wartribe raid boss army. There are near endless ways to resolve not having timers while injecting organic game play.

1 hour ago, Slamz said:

I'm just trying to put my finger on the problem with Crowfall's "joy of PvP".

By chance have anything to do with constantly checking your watch while standing around? I don't find that interesting either.

Edited by Nichivo
I clearly can't type tomorrow either.
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On 9/24/2021 at 10:56 PM, ShuaiGe said:

We need more simultaneous objectives to fight over.

So that a 20 vs 100 fight spreads to a 20 vs 40 and three 0 vs 20 fights letting the zerg win four objectives? 

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On 9/24/2021 at 1:56 PM, ShuaiGe said:

Keeping and growing the population should be an immediate concern for the Devs above whatever they have planned for two months down the road. Don't add more nuance, fix the basic stuff. Make the game fun, more fair, and new player friendly.

amen.  This is where I've landed.  I personally don't want to see new stuff introduced to the game until such time as all the basic poorly made dergs that should have happened pre-launch is fixed.

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