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kino

An In-Depth Crafting System

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I would like to see a more in-depth crafting and gathering system. Not something like WoW's "get the profession skill level to x amount, gather x amount of materials, craft" or the more Korean MMOs where it's super RNG of "random chance to succeed or fail, or random chance to proc or even get the correct craft."

 

MMOs like WoW or Final Fantasy had the simple crafting and gathering system. All you needed was to grind your profession skill to the level you needed, usually max to even remotely make a profit. For gathering you then turned on your tracker and find nodes to gather from. Crafting you either went to the Auction House or also leveled up a gathering profession to get your materials. Then you just craft what you need. No chance of failure, no proc'ing high quality items etc. Extremely simple.

 

Then you have Korean MMOs like Aion and ArcheAge were extremely RNG based. You still had the same grind your profession skill, but then you had a RNG chance to fail. That percentage got higher the higher your skill was but it was still all random. Then they even added the RNG based proc system. In Aion, you had a random chance to proc a higher quality item. The percentage chance would get higher if you got higher quality materials, but it was again still random. In ArcheAge, the RNG went so far as to give you a random version of the item. You need Illustrious Ocean Tunic but RNG gave you an Illustrious Volcano Tunic? Well out of luck, start your entire craft over and hope RNJesus blesses you.

 

I'd like to see a more in-depth type crafting system. Where you have to use knowledge, analysis, and planning to get what you want.

 

For example, say you're a farmer. Being able to understand soil fertility, irrigation, and crop seasons will yield higher quality and more of that crop than if you didn't. So say someone that's better skilled at farming would get four normal sized pumpkins and two large pumpkins while someone less skilled would get three normal sized pumpkins only. Being able to check the soil's fertility and understand what kind of crops could be grown on that soil. You wouldn't plant tropical crops in temperate soil. Also being able to irrigate your land would yield to healthier crop and better growth. If there's a season system in game, planting crops in their ideal seasons would also be needed. You wouldn't be planting crops in the middle of winter.

 

Or a carpenter being able to select the finest wood quality and knowing what type of wood is best for what. For example, a skilled carpenter would be able to know to use yew for bows compared to cedar and be able to tell the quality of the wood and whether that specific piece is usable or not. A carpenter would have to select wood pieces that are strong and can bend. You'd need to pick the right size of wood to get a long bow vs short bow. Using higher quality pieces of wood would result in higher quality bows. And not just using HQ Yew Lumber vs just Yew Lumber, but actively being able to determine it's quality.

 

I feel like this would put an interesting emphasis on skill in crafting and gathering.

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Yes, I would agree that an in-depth crafting and gathering system would be great.

 

I do hate archeages RNG system, but I do like that for a lot of things you have to craft something else first.  I abhore the idea of becoming a 'master' craftsman by just repeatedly crafting an item, recycle/salvage the same item, remake the same item, repeat 1000 times.

 

I would not like it to be an intense grind, yet at the same time I would not want to be able to max out a crafting skill in a week either.

 

Top teir items should require rare mats, but not every peice of armor should use the same rare mat (using the same archeum in archeage for cloth armor you use for plate armor?!?!?)

 

I liked the DF gathering system (after they added in the ability fo one click to harvest a node.  That clicking over and over again on the same node in tthe early days sucked).  But I do like having farms where I can grow stuff in Archeage.

 

I would want the best gear in game to be craftable.  I would not want it to be so much better that mob dropped gear would be unusable and just stuff to vendor.  And for those that want the best gear in the game, and don't want to craft, and don't want to buy, they should be able to take the gear off the dead bodies of their enemies. 

 

I want every craft to be needed and not just a side thought,  Put in item decay.  The better an item is, the longer it lasts.  The more it's used, the more it decays.  Make things repairable, but not quite as good afterwords as it was before.  Die in battle (or from jumping off a cliff), maybe an item or two (or more depending on the height) gets destroyed.

 

Make just about everything in the game craftable.  If there are going to be mounts in the game, let there be a husbandry skill where people could raise mounts and pets.

 

Mainly though, I want crafting to be fun, but a challenge, but not a grind.  And that's tough to pull off aparently, judging by most games.

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Hm, I think that I'm not liking your idea so much, honestly, some type of crafting is in order for sure, but, a chance to not craft something seems annoying. If that is the case, all substances needed for crafting MUST BE REASONABLY EASY to gather nothing that takes utterly long to obtain! ^-^ 


I say to you: the Hunger is not your enemy. Your enemy walks among you, charming and handsome, with a tongue full of lies.

 

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An in-depth crafting system is a must. Most games are a total joke in this area. Vanguard had the best crafting system far and away, and it added so much to the gaming experience. I would hope for something rivaling it.  :)

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Here was my thoughts on a crafting system:

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/169-crafting-but-im-a-warrior/

 

And just because I advocate for a hireling type system doesn't mean it cannot be an engaging an in-depth experience for a player investing into that area of the game.

Edited by mourne

"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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I actually like both ideas.  We can take it a step further though and satisfy both crafter types I think.. By having a two tiered crafting system.  If you want to just make the gear and rely on rngesus for success or failure you can.  However any of the "masterwork", +1 type of gear is made by an interactive crafting, player involved system. 

 

For example you want to make a +1 Table of  Ultimate Learning. You would gather logs (or buy them), plane them down to boards and get them cut to size.  Then you do the same with larger logs and make the top. You would have choices of jointing them together.  Buy glue, screws, or make your own dowels.  Require the correct tools to do the job.  Want to join it with dowels? Then you need to auger out the hole for a correct fit.  Want to screw it together?  Choose the right size screw and make sure you have a phillips head screwdriver.  

 

Obviously you would have a forgiving "this is how you make a table" standards, and not base it off of an engineering class or The 416 Carpenters Union Manual of Uniform Construction.

 

Now as a crafter, if you see some dude running around in /talking about how awesome your signed Masterworks Helm of Death. You know how much work went into it.  You can get that satisfaction from work. Not gather mats, put into slots, pull lever and hope you roll success.The guy who has the helm knows how hard it was to make and can understand why the +1/masterwork item is at a high cost.  That is not just a high crafter level and a Cardinal's hat from the church of rngesus.

 

As a player who just wants to make a bunch of armor to see what works best/have a good supply or sell here and there.  You can still "plug and play" craft to do it.  If you want a high level in crafting to make the things most people stop leveling before they can build, then you can do that as well. That fills in the gap from the +1 guys and and middle range guy who can afford more than npc gear but not enough for ubber gear.  

 

The "plug and play" crafting could apply to NPC's as well. If you go to one particular npc to craft he should level commensurate with you having done it yourself. If you use a few crafter or just any npc to craft the results should be slightly below what a player crafter could produce.  Stats -1 here and there from what a player crafted armor would be.There should also be wages beyond just what the item sells for (10% or something small but not miniscule) and you would be required to supply matts or pay their market price

 

If you have enough money there should be the option to "hire" an npc to craft for you.  You at that point have to pay him a weekly salary based on what you get crafted as well as base salary should you not get anything crafted that week. Also there should be required tools and space for him at your house for him to work as well as provided matts. This type of npc would have results on par with player crafted gear.

 

I think this type of system (while a rudimentary idea at best and would require a lot of tweeking I know) satisfies what attracted a lot of us to this game......CONSEQUENCES...not a perfect system made for MY play style and to let ME win and is easiest for what I want. You want to be the best crafter? Craft harder.  You want to get some one else to do it? It wont be as good and you have to pay for it. Dont want to bother with any of that crap, just want to hire the best and get damn good results? You're going to pay a good premium for convenience of on demand higher quality in house gear. Crafters now have a better roll in economy as they can make better stuff and wont compete with npc as much.  As players we would have more of a CHOICE.  Choices have consequences. Isn't that the point of our interest in this particular MMO experiment?

 

FTR I am not a crafter nor have I ever been in any game I have played.  Mostly because of the monotony and the rngesus factors of it all.  This type of idea might help people get like myself get into crafting .If there were more options for crafting and consequenses for which path was chosen.  Not just one path, pass or fail, based off of the roll of the dice.

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Honestly, I would go a step further.  I would want crafting to not only be in depth, but a core mechanic to the game as a whole.

Far to many MMO's have crafting as little more then an after thought, that results in a shallow, mindless experience.  Gather items, press a button, utter monotony ensues.

 

I would first take an EVE Online approach, where in essence everything is crafted by players, and when you die you lose your stuff.

Thus you create an economy of creation and destruction in equal measure.  And in doing so cement crafting as important to everything else in the game.

But I would want it to go a step beyond, and make the actual process of creating items an actual enjoyable activity.

 

Why is it that across the entire industry the best that can be done is just collecting items and pressing a button?

FFS, that is weak.

 

 

You know a game that does the act of crafting right?  Cooking Mama.

I BS you not.  When a game that is in essence a series of flash mini games blows this entire industry out of the water in this regard, you know you suck.

Just make each step in the crafting process a simple flash like mini game, using eye hand coordination within a set period of time.  Each a little different, and each crafting profession should feel like a different experience on the whole, but that's about it.

 

There's nothing mystical or difficult about it, just put some time and effort into it.

Edited by yoh

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they can always have two sources of crafting....one random and one resource.  u know what im sayin.  

 

Im betting if this game has seiging then....crafting will be more about your city than your charaters.


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Thats what I was getting at Yoh, perhaps I didnt fully explain it.  When I was talking about you having to plane the wood, drill the holes in the wood, or select your joints, that it would be in the form of a mini game or specific actions.  Where if you selected the wrong size screw the wood splits.  If you bought cheap glue and just globbed it on the joints came apart. That way your failure is from a lack of skill not a lack of luck. 

 

I do disagree abit with Tenshijin.  If you are a very good crafter and capable of creating excellent seige engines. Your characters skills would be in high demand. It would be about your character.  You contribute to the defence, expansion or what ever other mechanics are effected by possible seige activities. Crafters wouldn't just be that dude "carebearing" in the corner.  Now BobtheSmithy makes bad ass catapults.  We want Bob in our city.  Get a few Bobs in your city now pound for pound your seiging/defences can be better.  It would effect that aspect of the game as  well. Not just some sort of: City A makes 500 regular catapults attacks, City B has 400 regular anti-catapult walls. City A wins due to 100 more catapults.  However, now Bob has made the 400 (hypothetical I know but go with it) high quality anti-catapult walls.  Now its not just about numbers. Now a crafters skills can be applied to more than just arms and armor.  It would also limit the effect of zergig or making the zerg cost prohibative. If a city pays a few hq crafter to make their defences now they repell harder and take more damage.  If you dont have the quality and rely on quantity you know have to go far above the quantity to win. 

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Thats what I was getting at Yoh, perhaps I didnt fully explain it.  When I was talking about you having to plane the wood, drill the holes in the wood, or select your joints, that it would be in the form of a mini game or specific actions.  Where if you selected the wrong size screw the wood splits.  If you bought cheap glue and just globbed it on the joints came apart. That way your failure is from a lack of skill not a lack of luck. 

 

I do disagree abit with Tenshijin.  If you are a very good crafter and capable of creating excellent seige engines. Your characters skills would be in high demand. It would be about your character.  You contribute to the defence, expansion or what ever other mechanics are effected by possible seige activities. Crafters wouldn't just be that dude "carebearing" in the corner.  Now BobtheSmithy makes bad ass catapults.  We want Bob in our city.  Get a few Bobs in your city now pound for pound your seiging/defences can be better.  It would effect that aspect of the game as  well. Not just some sort of: City A makes 500 regular catapults attacks, City B has 400 regular anti-catapult walls. City A wins due to 100 more catapults.  However, now Bob has made the 400 (hypothetical I know but go with it) high quality anti-catapult walls.  Now its not just about numbers. Now a crafters skills can be applied to more than just arms and armor.  It would also limit the effect of zergig or making the zerg cost prohibative. If a city pays a few hq crafter to make their defences now they repell harder and take more damage.  If you dont have the quality and rely on quantity you know have to go far above the quantity to win. 

I wouldn't make it too difficult or complicated, just involved and engaging.  The failure state should just be if you don't do it in the time allotment.

The individual games should be pretty easy, something you could knock out in 30-60 seconds.  But have a time trial like element to it.

Where the better you do the better quality item you make.  Some things don't need the best quality, and some do.

 

And so it becomes a matter of practice and skill to consistently produce high quality items, like setting a high score in a time trial running game.

Of course there could be more and less difficult mini games that grow progressively more difficult the better craftsman you become.

Like making a chair, not that difficult.  Making a siege weapon, a lot more difficult.  Not only would there be a lot more steps, but new steps/mini games that are actually quite difficult.

 

But you don't want to start off too difficult to early.

 

 

Also, for something like this you also wouldn't need the standard crafting level BS.  You wouldn't have to grind out X things to level, but rather have it based on your merits.  Where you gain points based on how well you do on each individual mini game, and item as a whole.

Bronze, Silver, Gold.

 

Once you've gained enough points, you level up.  So you can either do a bunch of different items, and do so-so.  Or do fewer and just do them well.

The only grind you do per say, is practicing you skill to try and get better.

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How about a system that involves quality of the item based on mistakes made instead of RNG - as an example you could even make it that you could have two crafters working on the one item for highest quality Vs quantity of items produced separately. With this type of system instead of standing afk at a workstation watching a loading bar you can physically be making items virtually while on lookers can watch, as well as make a fair system that is based on your own skill and expertise rather than luck of the dice.

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Eye/hand skill in crafting is HORRIBLE. This is a game in which people like to relax, typically crafting is something you do when you can only give marginal attention to the screen. Also, you have people with only one hand playing, those that are colorblind, those with motion issues...etc. What about age? So the 60 year old retired guy can't make the best gear ever thanks to you making it a game of speed and coordination and they simply cannot move that fast.

 

You want interactivity? The at random during the loading bar a crafting event can happen and you have to decide how to handle it. The furnace is popping sparks and flames; do you ignore it and craft anyway as is, lower the speed of the bellows and thus lower the oxygen in hopes of stabilizing a flame, speed up the bellows to give the furnace more oxygen in hopes of stabilizing the flame, craft through it but use water to douse the heat on the metal where puffs of fire hit it, or use oil to more uniformly heat the metal? This is just one example and you could easily make hundreds and have the "best" answer be different each time as sometimes a fire needs less oxygen, sometimes more stabilizes it or sometimes it just makes the puffs larger and stronger...sometimes the oil works, sometimes it just blackens and overheats the metal horribly....real word smithing is one part science, one part art, and one part luck. No matter what you do, you just cannot remove entirely the luck portion, the better your equipment and tools the less luck you need to produce quality output but there is always a measure of luck.

 

We cannot honestly have 20-30 different types of trees and ore. We can have a robust crafting without making it tot he point new players that aren't in at the beginning when everyone is learning it is so far behind the enormity of it they simply don't try. 5-6 types of wood, 5-6 types of ore, various additives/stone types...etc...that will work. Make the base materials and work them up tot he completed product. Again...too many steps you simply annoy most people. If you want crafting to be central (our armor degrades and eventually breaks as repairing lowers max durability.


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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Eye/hand skill in crafting is HORRIBLE. This is a game in which people like to relax, typically crafting is something you do when you can only give marginal attention to the screen.

 

 

I must say, that's an awfully bold assumption. Or rather, we have sort of a chicken-or-egg dilemma there:

 

Is crafting something "you" (an indefinite amount of people) generally do when they can only give marginal attention to the screen because crafting's never more engaging than that (or, when it has been in some MMOs, it's just been horribly done and just engaging for the sake of being engaging)? OR, is it because crafting, itself, is just a lame, boring thing that should only ever be an afterthought, or something to do while you're sipping on lemonade and chatting with friends between the bouts of "actual gameplay"?

 

Anywho, that said, I'm confused by what you mean by "eye/hand skill." Your suggestion of reacting to events during the crafting progress bar is literally taking in information with your eyes and reacting with your hands. Nobody wants a DDR level of precision input to be required for crafting, but if it's not at least some kind of challenge, then there's no point in even having interactivity. Imagine if, in combat, you were fighting a boar or something, and it didn't even attack you back, but it changed colors randomly. And, when it did, you had to change your attack type to the appropriate type or you'd suffer a damage penalty. Oh, it's blue! Quick, use blue attacks! *button push*. Okay, it's good now. Oh, it's green again! Quick, green attacks! *button push* Okay, it's good.

 

Tedium doesn't come from having to repeat something. I can eat cake 50 times and still love cake. Tedium comes from having to repeat something while there's nothing to enjoy in the repetition. Combat would get tedious if you fought the exact same person, over and over again, and they never did anything differently, so you always beat them in the exact same way. It would just be busywork, then. You'd wonder "Why can't I just click a 'kill' button? What good is it for me to have to manually produce the victory, every time?"

 

Anywho, your general idea of how smithing (for example) could work still has merit. It could very well be more of a management of a process. I really think that people who are against presented ideas of active, in-depth crafting processes are mainly against overly specific ideas they have in their heads of strictly "minigames" and very twitchy controls, or the simulation of things that don't even need to be simulated (Like you're going to have to grip your hammer properly and pick it up off the table, and manually swing it with your mouse, Surgeon Simulator 2013 style), while there are oodles of other possibilities.


This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

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I want to amend/clarify my position on crafting just a little, and I suspect that Lephys might agree with me.

Is that I want crafting to be more engaging, whatever that form might turn out to be, so long as it isn't shallow and tedious.

Which is why I push examples like Cooking Mama, which aren't very reflex based for anybody who bothered to actually look at it.  

But it is down the strain of physical interaction on a short timer.  More about mastery then reflexes.

 

That would be far better then the usual non-interactive rubbish that usually passes for crafting.  And I can live with that happily enough.

However what I would prefer is something more cognitive and less physical/reactive as to separate it from the already physical/reactive kind of play, combat.

 

 

For example, Adventure Quest style match 3 puzzles.  Where you level up, have free form classes and equipment that changes how you go about solving each puzzle. Making you better against some things then others.  So each crafter could very well play differently, even when trying to craft the same item, which in turn could change the speed in which they craft and perhaps even the quality of the item.

And while a time limit could be a factor, it's more about thinking through the problem, and using whatever assortment of skills/gear that you have to solve them.

 

It's just a system that might take more work to create and on going balance for the developers.

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Lephys I fully admit that every single time I hear someone asking for more interactive crafting...my mind immediately goes to the times more interacting crafting has been done. usually it is hand/eye coordination times with "you must do this in 3 seconds or you fail!" as has been done to make those people happy in a few games I have played in the past. 

 

I tried my hand at real world smithing... I have a knack for reflexes and finding weaknesses in people face to face, couldn't turn that skill to how to judge metal for smithing purposes though I sucked. I lacked the critical eye for where and how hard to strike the metal to form what I wanted. Managing the heat and oxygen level of the furnace, the metal, how many times to fold it, how hard to strike it...this would be a detailed way I would totally get behind for crafting in game. Using just iron ingots...the level of heat in the furnace and how hard you strike the metal will churn out very different weapons. An incredibly hard yet brittle metal works great for longspears, weapons you only need to dot heir job once then you toss them aside for the rest of the battle. That hard yet brittle metal will pierce and rend flesh then snap off, maybe, but it did it's job in a huge mortal wound in the openning blows. Your sword you want to be softer, able to take collisions without warping or shattering. In this way we can tweak the durability each weapon has or even the damage output (harder metals hold a finer edge) allowing for personalizing and tweaking of products and allow pure crafters to really shine and make things to order just how people want them. 


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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There are already a lot lot lot of threads about this "Crafting needs to be fun! Cool! Interesting!" topic.   Here are just a few-

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/4795-mmo-crafting-the-bane-of-my-existence/

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/6848-crafting-minigame/

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/7051-better-crafting-mechanics-than-mini-games/

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/6822-crafting-and-gathering-mini-games/

 

I think we need at least a minimal amount of info from the devs (other than the pre pre pre alpha images we have) about crafting before we all decide on the boards what the crafting needs/should be. Wishlisting and defining each of our ideal systems was fine the first few times but at this point I think that reading the existing threads and commenting there would save a lot of retyping.

 


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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In addition to oridi's great post, here is a link to the Crafting FAQ. If you haven't read it, you should now... Seriously read it, the crafting system is going to be in depth.

 

And a useful quote from that page:

 

From a very high altitude, crafters need to be able to: craft unique items, explore new recipes and profit from the results of this exploration, and create customized items for all styles of play.
Edited by baerin

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There are already a lot lot lot of threads about this "Crafting needs to be fun! Cool! Interesting!" topic.   Here are just a few-

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/4795-mmo-crafting-the-bane-of-my-existence/

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/6848-crafting-minigame/

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/7051-better-crafting-mechanics-than-mini-games/

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/6822-crafting-and-gathering-mini-games/

 

I think we need at least a minimal amount of info from the devs (other than the pre pre pre alpha images we have) about crafting before we all decide on the boards what the crafting needs/should be. Wishlisting and defining each of our ideal systems was fine the first few times but at this point I think that reading the existing threads and commenting there would save a lot of retyping.

 

 

Agreed.

The only information we've been given is so broad as to be damn near useless.

Basically, we have crafting, and it's bigger then usual..... ok, not much to go on.  

 

And unlike combat that has a history of good design and they've clearly stated their position on where they want to go with it, all we've had to go in is some screenshots and vague ideas.  Not exactly the 'innovation' I was expecting from them.

It may be too early to get into the weeds on the issue, but being a core mechanic by the looks of it, I think you'd want to have a general idea of where you want to go with it and what your looking for in a crafting system.

 

But still.... crickets.

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