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Yoink's (7.7) Balance Changes - Knight


Yoink
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Goals:
Every class has a viable spec in solo, group, and large scale.
All talent choices are competitive with each other and placed in appropriate locations within the talent tree.
Make adjustment to abilities that underperform.
If a mechanic is oppressive, change it in such a way so that it retains what makes it good but is no longer oppressive.

Knights are in an OK place. They can bring great group utility but outside of buff bots they are underwhelming. Swordsman is in a pretty good spot with the addition of Dragoon. The class just needs a bit of attention on its clunky and lackluster mechanics.

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Retribution Strike - Increase the buff to 30s or cut the cooldown in half.
Ability is subpar. It is often chosen on DPS builds to get the stat node but not actually slotted on the power bar. It could use a small buff. This would allow for 100% uptime on a mediocre buff.

Shield Swipe - Remove the 1st part of the combo.
Noble Blood - Combine both parts of the combo into 1 button press.
Onslaught Combo - Remove Onslaught and Brutal Strike. Start with Twin Strike that combos into Obliterate or Shock Wave.

Knights suffer for having too many fragile combo abilities that are often not worth the time. They could use some pruning.

Shield Slam - Change the knock back to a knock down. Make the charge portion of the ability stop and execute the knock down as soon as you come into contact with a target.
This is just a bad ability in its current form. The knock back is counter productive to what you want it to do and the fact that you are forced to finish the animation even if you connect with a target if bad.

Pursuit - Double the length of the run speed buff.
Pursuit is in a bad place. I often skip it even on a Swordsman where it has a 6s cool down. 3s is too short. 6s would feel a whole lot better.

Swap the locations of Pursuit and Shield Slam in the talent tree.
With the improvements to Pursuit and the new ability in Distracting shouts place, I feel this swap would better balance the tree.

Distracting Shout - Replace with new passive. Increases the range of Chain Attack to 45m but doubles the Cooldown.
This spot in the talent tree is the hardest to reach. It requires a lot of sacrifice to get to. The payoff should be good. Most of my knight builds would not run Distracting Shout if it was given to me for free. Modifying Chain Attack to like this would allow for more useful siege builds for knights and would not impact much at forts or solo play.

 

Swordsman Pursuit Enhancement - Make it so that the Cooldown is 12s to adjust to the new 6s duration. Also allow the run speed to work at full outside of combat.
This is just to keep things consistent and I don’t like that a run speed buff would stop working when you are not in combat.

Sentinel Pursuit Enhancement - Add a physics knock back to the knight while Pursuit is active. (Like Centaur Charge)
This enhancement is weak in its current form. All of the shield attacks already stun or knock down so it is redundant. This change would be very fun.

Macemanship - Increase the duration of the buff to 12.
This would make the flow of combat a little more smooth for the Sentinel.

Paralyzing Shout - Make this also do a Parry/Block break with a 4s lockout on those abilities.
As is this talent is boring and often skipped. I do not look at this and think, “I want to be a sentinel to get this ability”. This change would add some viability to the Sentinel Promotion

Secutor Oath of Will Enhancement - Change to 100% reduced cost to block for 10s.
It is really clunky that block and retaliate both consume stamina. There should be a way for a knight to do both. I feel that this is a good place to put that. This would cement the Secutor as the defacto tank without really being OP at anything.

Full Strength - Also adds 300 AP while above 70% HP. Reduce damage by 10% and AP by 100 while under 70% HP.
This would make an otherwise out of place and sort of boring talent a bit more interesting and dynamic.

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2 hours ago, Yoink said:

Goals:
Every class has a viable spec in solo, group, and large scale.
All talent choices are competitive with each other and placed in appropriate locations within the talent tree.
Make adjustment to abilities that underperform.
If a mechanic is oppressive, change it in such a way so that it retains what makes it good but is no longer oppressive.

Knights are in an OK place. They can bring great group utility but outside of buff bots they are underwhelming. Swordsman is in a pretty good spot with the addition of Dragoon. The class just needs a bit of attention on its clunky and lackluster mechanics.

unknown.png

Retribution Strike - Increase the buff to 30s or cut the cooldown in half.
Ability is subpar. It is often chosen on DPS builds to get the stat node but not actually slotted on the power bar. It could use a small buff. This would allow for 100% uptime on a mediocre buff.

Retribution Strike should just be changed for something else. Thorns got neutered again and is always going to feel like a bad skill.

Shield Swipe - Remove the 1st part of the combo.

Shield Swipe is fine, the 2 part combo is useful. The first skill in this combo has a low CD and has use while the stun portion is on CD

Noble Blood - Combine both parts of the combo into 1 button press.

Agree on rolling this into a single button. this is on of few, if not the only skill in the game that is a 2 part combo buff skill which doesn't make sense.


Onslaught Combo - Remove Onslaught and Brutal Strike. Start with Twin Strike that combos into Obliterate or Shock Wave.
Knights suffer for having too many fragile combo abilities that are often not worth the time. They could use some pruning.

Basically agree. I have been asking for this to be reduced to a 2 chain forever. Always on deaf ears.

Shield Slam - Change the knock back to a knock down. Make the charge portion of the ability stop and execute the knock down as soon as you come into contact with a target.
This is just a bad ability in its current form. The knock back is counter productive to what you want it to do and the fact that you are forced to finish the animation even if you connect with a target if bad.

Pursuit - Double the length of the run speed buff.
Pursuit is in a bad place. I often skip it even on a Swordsman where it has a 6s cool down. 3s is too short. 6s would feel a whole lot better.

Pursuit currently suffers from sever Energy cost issues. This is more a symptom of weight changes that messed with the Ranger and Knight class significantly. I don't think there are any changes required outside fixing the energy resource problem.

Swap the locations of Pursuit and Shield Slam in the talent tree.
With the improvements to Pursuit and the new ability in Distracting shouts place, I feel this swap would better balance the tree.

Distracting Shout - Replace with new passive. Increases the range of Chain Attack to 45m but doubles the Cooldown.
This spot in the talent tree is the hardest to reach. It requires a lot of sacrifice to get to. The payoff should be good. Most of my knight builds would not run Distracting Shout if it was given to me for free. Modifying Chain Attack to like this would allow for more useful siege builds for knights and would not impact much at forts or solo play.

An extra 15 meters is an absolutely atrocious payoff for making chain pull effectively a 32 second CD. This would be an absolutely massive noob trap pick at that point and make the node even worse than taking distracting shout.

Swordsman Pursuit Enhancement - Make it so that the Cooldown is 12s to adjust to the new 6s duration. Also allow the run speed to work at full outside of combat.
This is just to keep things consistent and I don’t like that a run speed buff would stop working when you are not in combat.

There is no need to change this. I know you all want your meme run faster than mounts away from everyone in the game nonsense again. but it's not needed. It's bad enough champs can still do basically this.

Sentinel Pursuit Enhancement - Add a physics knock back to the knight while Pursuit is active. (Like Centaur Charge)
This enhancement is weak in its current form. All of the shield attacks already stun or knock down so it is redundant. This change would be very fun.

Macemanship - Increase the duration of the buff to 12.
This would make the flow of combat a little more smooth for the Sentinel.

Paralyzing Shout - Make this also do a Parry/Block break with a 4s lockout on those abilities.
As is this talent is boring and often skipped. I do not look at this and think, “I want to be a sentinel to get this ability”. This change would add some viability to the Sentinel Promotion

Secutor Oath of Will Enhancement - Change to 100% reduced cost to block for 10s.
It is really clunky that block and retaliate both consume stamina. There should be a way for a knight to do both. I feel that this is a good place to put that. This would cement the Secutor as the defacto tank without really being OP at anything.

All stamina costs need to be removed from block for the entire Knight class, not just Secutor. Oath of Protection should get a block bonus of +20% in place of it's current effect instead (under the presumption of removing stamina costs for the whole Knight class)

Full Strength - Also adds 300 AP while above 70% HP. Reduce damage by 10% and AP by 100 while under 70% HP.
This would make an otherwise out of place and sort of boring talent a bit more interesting and dynamic.

I will be honest. I despise Full Strength. HP threshold based power is god awful, Damage is too spiky, and the Knights recovery options feel terrible. In the spirit of making Secutor the "Tank" of the group. I would rather see this node changed to make Barriers applied to the Secutor also apply to it's group. This would give the Secutor some feeling of being able to protect it's group.

Further to this, It would be cool if Secutor had some sort of taunt. In PvP it could reduce the damage of surrounding enemies against your allies ( but not the Secutor itself) whilst also doubling as an actual taunt in PVE content, so that the tank can actually tank the scary stuff instead of DPS needing to be defacto tanks.

 

In Addition to the comments I made within Yoinks post, Knight's current position is rather terrible. It has low mobility atm ( largely due to prohibitive energy costs and positioning of pursuit) some of the highest number of active skills in the game, and a distinct lack of passives.

Knight is generally just extremely squishy due to how worthless it's block is from both the fact that Stamina costs still exist, and the fact that it doesn't actually mitigate damage while blocking any better than any other class. This is all on top of having some of the worst options for recovery/sustain of all the melee classes.

A skill that hasn't been mentioned by Yoink in his post is Shield Bash. This skill is in an awkward spot. Firstly is the fact that it's a 3 point pick up in the first place, secondly it requires 3 consecutive auto attacks to even use the skill, this not only makes your auto attacks do nothing special, but is also a dead skill if you don't auto attack or take the major to enable it off other shield hits.

As a start, I would at least like to see Shield Bash get enabled from block hits again, this would help this pick feel a little better than just a dead node your forced to path through on the bottom lane.

To pivot back to the sustain issue a little, I would like to see the types of CC that can trigger endurance expanded a little. As it currently stands, it's an Ok pick, but is relatively underwhelming when compared to sustain options afforded to other classes.

One last thing I would like to add is for the damage bonus from block to have it's buff duration increased from 5 seconds to around 10. as it currently stands, it's almost impossible to make use of this buff at all. The "increased damage bonus cap" part of the buff also needs to be fixed so that it properly stacks along side the damage bonus buff.

Edited by UnderGrowth
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6 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

An extra 15 meters is an absolutely atrocious payoff for making chain pull effectively a 32 second CD. This would be an absolutely massive noob trap pick at that point and make the node even worse than taking distracting shout.

O man I think we play different games. This would be amazing at sieges.

7 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

Retribution Strike should just be changed for something else. Thorns got neutered again and is always going to feel like a bad skill.

What changed with thorns? I agree the ability is lame but I was just trying to make it better vs just making something new.

 

8 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

Pursuit currently suffers from sever Energy cost issues. This is more a symptom of weight changes that messed with the Ranger and Knight class significantly. I don't think there are any changes required outside fixing the energy resource problem.

This change would effectively half the energy cost of the ability. I just don't feel that 3 seconds is impactful enough.

 

16 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

There is no need to change this. I know you all want your meme run faster than mounts away from everyone in the game nonsense again. but it's not needed. It's bad enough champs can still do basically this.

Can already do this by hitting auto attack to stay in combat. Just trying to get rid of the clunkyness.

 

 

18 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

All stamina costs need to be removed from block for the entire Knight class, not just Secutor. Oath of Protection should get a block bonus of +20% in place of it's current effect instead (under the presumption of removing stamina costs for the whole Knight class)

I would love for stam cost to be removed from block across the board. Would you just tie it to energy?

 

20 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

I would rather see this node changed to make Barriers applied to the Secutor also apply to it's group. This would give the Secutor some feeling of being able to protect it's group.

This would be cool. Full Strength has always been odd in this tree.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Yoink said:

What changed with thorns? I agree the ability is lame but I was just trying to make it better vs just making something new.

 

The constant nerf's to what thorns can proc from gutted it into oblivion. the constant whining from stealthers made any type of reflect stuff pretty trash.

36 minutes ago, Yoink said:

This change would effectively half the energy cost of the ability. I just don't feel that 3 seconds is impactful enough.
 

This change doesn't address the sheer cost of just pressing the button once. This is the problem first and foremost. before the weight changes neutered all our costs, pursuit was in a perfect spot besides the meme outside of combat stuff. you could close a lot of distance in 3 seconds in combat ( and still can) but the energy costs is extremely prohibitive.

36 minutes ago, Yoink said:

Can already do this by hitting auto attack to stay in combat. Just trying to get rid of the clunkyness.

 

Not really, you don't move anywhere near as fast as you did when you got 100% out of combat. As soon as a swordsman dropped out of combat, that was it, you weren't catching them. This is why I think it's fine that the out of combat is 40%, there is no need for it to be higher.

 

36 minutes ago, Yoink said:

I would love for stam cost to be removed from block across the board. Would you just tie it to energy?

My current proposal, is to start, for stam costs to just be removed only from the Knights block. I want to see how it plays, it doesn't need to be put on energy ( my god this would suck). The thing to remember about knights is while they are blocking, they are doing literally nothing else. They have no punish's, they are purely on the defensive, they are just dieing slower. This is why blocking on a knight feels so poorly made dergsty on the stamina system, you are just punishing yourself, and setting yourself up to be stuck on the ground as your stamina is rapidly draining.

Don't forget the severely reduced movement speed while blocking also, we don't even get an instant gap closer like censure to make up for not having a dodge.

Oh and, man I don't wanna say this but. Demolisher IS a thing that DOES exist ( as well as fencer, but man that skill is awful). And Demolisher is overbearingly punishing already. There is also the Elkin headbut, and Mino charge. So it's not like there aren't answers to block. It's for these reasons I don't see an issue with Knight block not requiring a resource.

Edited by UnderGrowth
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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

My current proposal, is to start, for stam costs to just be removed only from the Knights block.

Id be down to try it out. but could see that being a bit too much on a swordsman. 

Edited by Yoink

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Just now, Yoink said:

Id be down to try it out. but could see that being a bit too much of a swordsman. 

Swordsman are so stupidly squishy already, I don't think it's going to be an issue. and Unfortunately I edited my post before you quoted, so I will add it here.

"Oh and, man I don't wanna say this but. Demolisher IS a thing that DOES exist ( as well as fencer, but man that skill is awful). And Demolisher is overbearingly punishing already. There is also the Elkin headbut, and Mino charge. So it's not like there aren't answers to block. It's for these reasons I don't see an issue with Knight block not requiring a resource. "

It won't be any worse than a Vindi that blocks, except Knight's don't get to punish you for hitting us. Hell maybe we might even be able to meaningfully manage our energy instead of being tapped out with 20 seconds of a fight.

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Yea unfortunately. I have been championing for block to be removed for stam for the longest of times ( and also shortneing the onslaught combo and changing secutor) but who knows, we might get there in the end.

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Keep in mind that there was a lot of power pushed into Obliteration, partially as compensation for the 3rd chain.  I agree moving it to a 2step would feel better, but I would expect to see the damage come down a bit.

 

One of the biggest things for me comes out in Yoink’s comments about the shout stuns, especially in regards to a Sentinel.  There is so much immunity and retaliation in the game that CC-focused promotions spend a lot of their role identity failing to do the thing they are suppose to be good at.  I’m not sure I would advocate less breaks, but I think it would be interesting to see those promotions get some kind of benefit when they hit people immune and/or have their stuns broken.  If you think of some of the least performing promos across the board, almost all of those CC classes are there.  Barbs are something of an exception, but thats because they have a lot going on other than CC.

 

I often struggle with the need to gap close with the desire to block, and the result is often I simply use dodge instead of block.  The pursuit cost needs to be mitigated somehow, as having more freedom to use that in place of dodge would open up block.  Combining Oath and Noble to a single press would help some, and not having to run a resto strike would also help with hotbars too.

I think there are some other potential hotbar savings as well, like you could convert Chivalry into a passive like the Centaur racial, freeing up a potential button if you go that path.  Similarly you could convert the thorn strike to a proc buff when you get hit while blocking, or something.  Shield bash can be cool, but it feels like it might be better as just part of shieldmaster in general and you could use moving that to do some rearrangements.

 

A personal pet peeve, please bring some clarity to what is suppose to get bonuses from Mighty Surge and what isn’t.  There is some significant inconsistancy in what is a “Knight” attack.

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14 minutes ago, Rasia said:

Keep in mind that there was a lot of power pushed into Obliteration, partially as compensation for the 3rd chain.  I agree moving it to a 2step would feel better, but I would expect to see the damage come down a bit.

As far as I am concerned, the patch that added power to the knight skills, was just bringing an underperforming kit up to standard in the first place, Knight's base damage on it's core kit had been atrocious for years. All removing a a skill from the 3 part combo will do, is bring a very old skill into parity with newer classes that don't have to deal with these skills to begin with. The reproach combo on the templar is another 3 part combo that is also in dire need of pruning a chain.

23 minutes ago, Rasia said:

I think there are some other potential hotbar savings as well, like you could convert Chivalry into a passive like the Centaur racial, freeing up a potential button if you go that path.  Similarly you could convert the thorn strike to a proc buff when you get hit while blocking, or something.  Shield bash can be cool, but it feels like it might be better as just part of shieldmaster in general and you could use moving that to do some rearrangements.

 

Shield Bash is part of Knight's identity. Removing this from the kit entirely would be awful. It just needs to be adjusted so that it isn't stuck on our auto attacks. Once upon a time it would activate after blocking 3 hits. Give us that back at a minimum. I feel like they slapped it on to our Auto attacks because they didn't know what kind of passive our auto attacks should have on the third hit. Remember, at the end of the day the Knight is the Shield Focused class, irrespective of if you only play swordsman or not.

Give us back Shield Bash being enabled after 3 blocked hit's. And leave the major as it is.

29 minutes ago, Rasia said:

A personal pet peeve, please bring some clarity to what is suppose to get bonuses from Mighty Surge and what isn’t.  There is some significant inconsistancy in what is a “Knight” attack.

The wording has a couple of spelling errors, but it's very clear. Any attack performed by the Knight, that is not a shield attack. Literally anything that uses the Sword ( this will mean it's slashing damage when performed) will proc and be modified by Swordsmanship. This includes any skills from Majors that use the Sword for damage Type. The only thing that's not super Obvious is that our ultimate is a shield attack, so therefore does not get modified by Swordsmanship.

 

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1 hour ago, UnderGrowth said:

As far as I am concerned, the patch that added power to the knight skills, was just bringing an underperforming kit up to standard in the first place, Knight's base damage on it's core kit had been atrocious for years. All removing a a skill from the 3 part combo will do, is bring a very old skill into parity with newer classes that don't have to deal with these skills to begin with. The reproach combo on the templar is another 3 part combo that is also in dire need of pruning a chain.

Shield Bash is part of Knight's identity. Removing this from the kit entirely would be awful. It just needs to be adjusted so that it isn't stuck on our auto attacks. Once upon a time it would activate after blocking 3 hits. Give us that back at a minimum. I feel like they slapped it on to our Auto attacks because they didn't know what kind of passive our auto attacks should have on the third hit. Remember, at the end of the day the Knight is the Shield Focused class, irrespective of if you only play swordsman or not.

Give us back Shield Bash being enabled after 3 blocked hit's. And leave the major as it is.

The wording has a couple of spelling errors, but it's very clear. Any attack performed by the Knight, that is not a shield attack. Literally anything that uses the Sword ( this will mean it's slashing damage when performed) will proc and be modified by Swordsmanship. This includes any skills from Majors that use the Sword for damage Type. The only thing that's not super Obvious is that our ultimate is a shield attack, so therefore does not get modified by Swordsmanship.

 

We may have to agree to disagree about shield bash being a key part of a knights identity.  The shield itself, absolutely, but not bash.  Don't get me wrong, I love bash, especially on my sentinel, I just think in a world of already super tight hot bars it could be adjusted to be more opt in.  I do strongly dislike the auto requirements, and it would interesting to see something like a block enable it.  Or have it always open on a shield attack, and just allow the shield master to boost damage.  Maybe trade the crits inside the window passive with the blocks enable, and make shield master really about the dps of bash and let the core ability be more about the dodge resets and some off the gcd damage between things

 

As for what uses surge, Unfortunately that is not true.  A number of discipline-based attacks don't benefit from mighty surge.  Restoration Strike was just changed so it did not, nor does Dagger Spin, but Dazzling Blades and Critical Hack both do.  Even more strange, those things will proc Surge, but not gain benefit from it.

 

Edits because big fingers and tiny phone keyboard

Edited by Rasia
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I really am not sure why you are so hell bent on changing Shield Bash so drastically, besides the fact you probably play swordsman by the sounds of it, quite heavily. The only thing that doesn't work about the skill, is the fact that they removed it's ability to proc from Blocking, and then tied it to requiring 3 consecutive Auto's. There is really no need to change the skill outside this.

Hell if you are so desperate to move it out off the third pick slot, just shift it to the First Node and be done with it. Far more elegant solution to be honest. After the pulversize change on Myrm, it's clear they don't mind there being 3 skills attached with the first node.

 

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I'm not really hell bent on anything, I even state I love shield bash.  The whole point of that line of discussion started with a line of approach of Knights simply have too much in the way of hotbar to try to manage and I said: "I think there are some other potential hotbar savings as well, like you could convert Chivalry into a passive like the Centaur racial, freeing up a potential button if you go that path.  Similarly you could convert the thorn strike to a proc buff when you get hit while blocking, or something.  Shield bash can be cool, but it feels like it might be better as just part of shieldmaster in general and you could use moving that to do some rearrangements."

 

As for the random "My opinions don't seem matter because I play a swordsman," not only does that make sense because the swordsman is 1/3rd of the Knight's class identity and their concepts and role should be taken into account for anything, its also just wrong. By far one of the two characters I have spent the most time with in CF since launch is my Guiny Knight who spent much of his life as a Music Sentinel (with the occasional sidetrack as a Wreckutor and a bleed Swordsman).  Certainly in the last 2 campaigns I've been toying with a human knight build that is specifically geared to be a swordsman, but if Sents can ever get to a reasonably good place, I'll go back in a heartbeat.  I much prefer that supportive style of gameplay.

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21 minutes ago, Rasia said:

I'm not really hell bent on anything, I even state I love shield bash.  The whole point of that line of discussion started with a line of approach of Knights simply have too much in the way of hotbar to try to manage and I said: "I think there are some other potential hotbar savings as well, like you could convert Chivalry into a passive like the Centaur racial, freeing up a potential button if you go that path.  Similarly you could convert the thorn strike to a proc buff when you get hit while blocking, or something.  Shield bash can be cool, but it feels like it might be better as just part of shieldmaster in general and you could use moving that to do some rearrangements."

 

As for the random "My opinions don't seem matter because I play a swordsman," not only does that make sense because the swordsman is 1/3rd of the Knight's class identity and their concepts and role should be taken into account for anything, its also just wrong. By far one of the two characters I have spent the most time with in CF since launch is my Guiny Knight who spent much of his life as a Music Sentinel (with the occasional sidetrack as a Wreckutor and a bleed Swordsman).  Certainly in the last 2 campaigns I've been toying with a human knight build that is specifically geared to be a swordsman, but if Sents can ever get to a reasonably good place, I'll go back in a heartbeat.  I much prefer that supportive style of gameplay.

So here is the best kind of hotbar saving you can do. You can make the choice to simply not put it on your bar. It's a decision making concept. Knights having a busy hotbar has always been a charm of the class, and a skill level ( of which the swordsman barely has to deal with by nature). I also never said your opinion didn't matter, I was saying the only conclusion that made sense that you would want to gut shield bash was because a swordsman doesn't care about shield bash.

Removing things for Knights Core Kit is the last thing I want to do, let alone removing a core shield skill that has been apart of Knight as long as it's onslaught combo and chain pull.

The only thing Shield Bash needs, is for it to work how it once did, and be enable from blocks. If you don't want to worry about it being on your hotbar, then don't put it there. It's like retribution strike. It has no play on a hotbar, so I don't put it there. At least shield bash isn't a completely dumpster fire skill. It just needs a minor tweak to work cleanly.

Honestly you could just remove retribution strike and put something else there entirely as an option and nothing of value would be lost.

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Noble Blood and Oath of Will should have been combined a long time ago (I would also advocate for Restoration Strike to also be a single ability rather than a chain)

On 4/21/2022 at 2:29 PM, Yoink said:

Shield Slam - Change the knock back to a knock down. Make the charge portion of the ability stop and execute the knock down as soon as you come into contact with a target.

 

This is just a bad ability in its current form. The knock back is counter productive to what you want it to do and the fact that you are forced to finish the animation even if you connect with a target if bad.

On 4/21/2022 at 2:29 PM, Yoink said:

Sentinel Pursuit Enhancement - Add a physics knock back to the knight while Pursuit is active. (Like Centaur Charge)

This enhancement is weak in its current form. All of the shield attacks already stun or knock down so it is redundant. This change would be very fun.

You say Knockback on Shield Slam counter productive, but then say add Knockback to Sentinel Pursuit. Would that not be even more counter productive (gap close then create gap)?

I agree with most of what's been suggested. I will say that I have a dream that Retribution Strike + Thornshield + Molon Labe will be a very strong reflect build, but Retribution Strike and Block being not good makes the whole idea fall apart. On Full Strike, I would prefer a group barrier or a damage redirection ability over a taunt-like ability to make Secutor feel more like a tank, but honestly anything's better than it's current state.

 

I still stan the idea to make Sentinel a Ranged Defense that's kinda like a mix between Frostguard and Warden, except more defensive in nature and not as oppressive as those two have historically been. BowKnight FTW!

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3 hours ago, coolster50 said:

You say Knockback on Shield Slam counter productive, but then say add Knockback to Sentinel Pursuit. Would that not be even more counter productive (gap close then create gap)?

 

Shield slam is more of a single target kind of thing. If I am going to make them take extra damage, i want to actually be in melee range of them. My thoughts on the sentinel pursuit physics was more like plowing through like a wrecking ball and breaking up a stack.

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I would spread the Secutor talents on the left of into-the-fray. Make the secutor a shield base (merge with Shieldmaster , shield bash, shield slam Discipline). Then Sentinel, more like a damage reflection knight (Stalwart, retribution strike /mudman style).  Pursuit would allow using Block and dodge.

Edited by Kneevergivup
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On 4/23/2022 at 11:30 AM, Yoink said:

Shield slam is more of a single target kind of thing. If I am going to make them take extra damage, i want to actually be in melee range of them.

I agree with you on this, I have always despised how Shield slam has a KB attached to it, basically forces you to use chain pull immediately after ( or pursuit if you still have energy) just to re-close the gap and keep things flowing. It's awfully anti-synergistic, and honestly isn't even very good to try and use as peel. Even just landing the move at times is horrifically clunky in execution.

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