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Uphill Both Ways In The Snow.


durost
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It's a matter of growing old too. We have been complaining about the younger generation for milleniums. Each generation is diferent. That doesn't mean it's better or worse, only diferent.

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Same reason they give 'participation' awards in younger sports now. Everyone has to get an award. Regardless of skill, or work done.

 

The world has veered into a state where the majority of people, think its bad to make mistakes.

 

But the real truth is, if you don't make mistakes, you don't learn, period. Mistakes teach us so we can become better.

 

Thus its no surprise the majority wants to be constantly rewarded, constantly get a 'level ding', constantly have bigger numbers, constantly get gratification for every activity.

 

"If i'm not rewarded, why should I do this?" is the new norm. Its sad but the truth. Its why we as a country and world, lack empathy.

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These days people care less about being really good and more about being perceived as being really good which are not the same thing. 

 

I find the idea of dominating so many people that someone's name spreads fear throughout the lands like creeping death much more awesome than a big leaderboard saying so and so has the best kda. 

 

That sums up exactly how I feel but I was hoping for some more detailed answers from those who like ladders and leaderboards like this one .

 

I guess I just believe that it's better to measure in absolutes if you're going to measure.

 

Ok this I can kind of understand, and I can get behind if your going to make a claim, make a claim that is accurately measurable, (that for instance i support)

 

What do you believe is being measured by leaderboards? Skill? dedication? patience? 

 

Have you ever lost a match, duel, campaign etc, for the sake of raising your ratings in a specific chategory of the leaderboards?

Edited by Durost
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Games used to be thought of as a children's toy, which is why many people didn't care to make them competitive.

 

As games have become more accepted, they have become increasingly competitive.

 

If there was a multiplayer game that people thought was worth playing, it would instantly become competitive. For example: Age of Empires.

 

Nowadays, if a game is popular, then it will become competitive because they have much larger audiences and there are many people who want to know how good they are.

 

In other words, good games have always been competitive; yours were either not popular enough, or you just didn't compete.

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When I was young playing games, sports, and later video games I played to win each game and have fun the end. If I built up a reputation as a good battlefield commander then great. If I didnt oh well. The game was fun. I did not need trophies in my house, statues on my lawn, a ladder, or a leaderboard to know where i stood.

 

I didnt need to keep all my protective gear or my jersy when i graduated highschool.

 

I guess what im saying is why does the younger generation of gamers need proof of their abilities for the whole world to see in order to enjoy a game. Why is having fun and killing everyone you come across and getting a reputation as one of the best not enough.

 

I am seriously asking this question not slinging poo because i cant understand as an older gamer. Looking at ladders and leaderboards achievements and trophies just makes me think that people will make decisions on what makes them rank highest instead of what will create victory or be the most fun...

 

Games have advanced in how to tie what you do to extrinsic rewards. This is a double-edged sword because misusing extrinsic rewards cheapens the actual accomplishment in a lot of cases, but when done well allows players to have enhanced positive and negative feelings around success and failure.

 

Even CS:GO has a ranking and skins system now, without changes to the core gameplay. I play because I love playing CS (Primary Motive) but like that watching myself get better and progress through ranks or showing off a cool skin adds to my experience. It socializes it, lets me know how good I ACTUALLY am (back in our day, everyone pretty much assumed they were the best :P) and best of all, is an opt-in experience. You could play CS and ignore those systems if they offended you, though I wager that you'd engage with them since they're well-done.

 

I'm 36 myself, so I was cut in the era you speak of, but I don't see it as "this entitlement generation..." or anything like that because there's no right or wrong, good or bad. This is an amoral concept. It's just another way to provide fun.

 

People who want to compete want to win, and they want that win to be something that they're fighting over. Are athletes shallow competitors because there's a Stanley Cup to earn? Is driving competition via psychological rewards a bad thing when it taps into our bases of human behavior? I don't think players wanting this is a problem. I think developers not understanding the difference in how to use extrinsic rewards correctly (XBL achievements, for example) is.

Edited by morello
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I think a leaderboard measures exactly what it presents. If you don't feel the need to measure youself against that leaderboard or any leaderboard, that's your perogative. Leaderboards achieve one thing, which is to quantify what some players find meaningful and create a means of asynchronous competition (Again, the long poll appeal of a product).

 

Leaderboards, Achievements, K/D ratios, W/L ratios, Accuracy, Damage Dealt, Killing Blows, Healing, Damage Taken, Whatever you want to quantify. These are all simply facets of player expression, their existence doesn't require your adherence. They are there for those of us who enjoy those methods of measurement. If you don't, it's very easy to simply not participate in measuring yourself against them.

 

If someone wants to make the claim that they represent the best people, or the most skilled, or whatever a person might infer from this information you can simply tell them that a leaderboard is only capable of measuring concrete events, subjective opinion is not easily measured and can frequently involve much more than just stats.

:wub:

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I think a leaderboard measures exactly what it presents. If you don't feel the need to measure youself against that leaderboard or any leaderboard, that's your perogative. Leaderboards achieve one thing, which is to quantify what some players find meaningful and create a means of asynchronous competition (Again, the long poll appeal of a product).

 

Leaderboards, Achievements, K/D ratios, W/L ratios, Accuracy, Damage Dealt, Killing Blows, Healing, Damage Taken, Whatever you want to quantify. These are all simply facets of player expression, their existence doesn't require your adherence. They are there for those of us who enjoy those methods of measurement. If you don't, it's very easy to simply not participate in measuring yourself against them.

 

If someone wants to make the claim that they represent the best people, or the most skilled, or whatever a person might infer from this information you can simply tell them that a leaderboard is only capable of measuring concrete events, subjective opinion is not easily measured and can frequently involve much more than just stats.

The problem is leaderboards often foster the wrong mentality for playing correctly.  They do not measure exactly what they represent because to different people they represent different things.

 

Leaderboards can provide you with really good information if they are detailed enough, but I believe people can become much better if they just focus on understanding a game inside and out and not on whether the leaderboard tells them they do.  A leaderboard can't measure what a stratcaller is doing on voice comms to position his fraggers to get kills, it doesn't usually measure or quantify the value of a support player who hits a perfectly timed CC to enable his dpsers to do their thing.  It generally creates a very individually ego-driven mentality. 

 

In team based games there is a lot more going into contribution than just heals or damage or kda or stuff that we see the average games measure.  I have yet to see a game properly quantify this stuff.  How do you quantify someone that created noise and played a certain way to bait out the team so that his teammate that had a good crossfire peek could catch them all off guard and kill them. 

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I think a leaderboard measures exactly what it presents. If you don't feel the need to measure youself against that leaderboard or any leaderboard, that's your perogative. Leaderboards achieve one thing, which is to quantify what some players find meaningful and create a means of asynchronous competition (Again, the long poll appeal of a product).

 

Leaderboards, Achievements, K/D ratios, W/L ratios, Accuracy, Damage Dealt, Killing Blows, Healing, Damage Taken, Whatever you want to quantify. These are all simply facets of player expression, their existence doesn't require your adherence. They are there for those of us who enjoy those methods of measurement. If you don't, it's very easy to simply not participate in measuring yourself against them.

 

If someone wants to make the claim that they represent the best people, or the most skilled, or whatever a person might infer from this information you can simply tell them that a leaderboard is only capable of measuring concrete events, subjective opinion is not easily measured and can frequently involve much more than just stats.

 

I think that sums up exactly what has pushed me away from leaderboards.  If my main priority in a game is wins to losses ratio in campains, I put all my efforts into coordinating my faction or whatever to make sure we win every campaign that I enter, but I have many deaths in suicide missions or unwinable distraction skirmishes to ensure a greater victory elsewhere, my leaderboard statistics other than campaign win to loss ratio can look poor and players who only care about death to kill ratios or some other stat think "psshhh what a baddy"  Yet they never seem to accept my invitations to 1v1 battles...

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I think that sums up exactly what has pushed me away from leaderboards.  If my main priority in a game is wins to losses ratio in campains, I put all my efforts into coordinating my faction or whatever to make sure we win every campaign that I enter, but I have many deaths in suicide missions or unwinable distraction skirmishes to ensure a greater victory elsewhere, my leaderboard statistics other than campaign win to loss ratio can look poor and players who only care about death to kill ratios or some other stat think "psshhh what a baddy"  Yet they never seem to accept my invitations to 1v1 battles...

 

It's all about understanding you know? It's like the different roles people fulfill on a game development team. No one person can achieve greatness without the aid of others. Your QA is always overlooked but generally contributes massively to the success of the product.

 

You can't expect everyone to always be cognizant of that fact, and leaderboards can take away from the understanding of what constitutes value depending on the game. However, they are nothing more than what they are, if they have little relevancy to the success of failure of people, or as a measure of a person's skill then they are simply a fools measure and nothing more.

:wub:

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Why do people like things I don't like?!

 this is by no means what hes saying.. Hes asking why must people insist on OTHER things IN ORDER to have fun. 

 

Instead of quippy 1 liners... what about trying to understand what the guy is saying instead of making yourself look like a dumb broad.

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 this is by no means what hes saying.. Hes asking why must people insist on OTHER things IN ORDER to have fun. 

 

Instead of quippy 1 liners... what about trying to understand what the guy is saying instead of making yourself look like a dumb broad.

 

All of his/her other replies were well thought out, rational and rather comprehensive perspectives on the subject so I just laughed that one off and assumed a second read gave him/her a better understanding of my query.

 

But to expand on your comment yes, I am in no way opposed to ladders or leaderboards if it inspires more committed and dedicated players to keep the game open.

 

I am in fact strongly in support of any carrot on a stick that will inspire the self-centered and/or egocentric players to gravitate towards goals that will push them in the direction of the campaigns goals, regardless of whether or not that carrot will inspire or even interest me at all!

Edited by Durost
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When I was young playing games, sports, and later video games I played to win each game and have fun the end. If I built up a reputation as a good battlefield commander then great. If I didnt oh well. The game was fun. I did not need trophies in my house, statues on my lawn, a ladder, or a leaderboard to know where i stood.

 

I didnt need to keep all my protective gear or my jersy when i graduated highschool.

 

I guess what im saying is why does the younger generation of gamers need proof of their abilities for the whole world to see in order to enjoy a game. Why is having fun and killing everyone you come across and getting a reputation as one of the best not enough.

 

I am seriously asking this question not slinging poo because i cant understand as an older gamer. Looking at ladders and leaderboards achievements and trophies just makes me think that people will make decisions on what makes them rank highest instead of what will create victory or be the most fun...

GIVE ME ACHIEVEMENTS OR GIVE ME DEATH!!! ALL GAMES I PLAY MUST PAMPER MY INNER BEAUTY!

 

Srsly, I don't get it either. Achievements were cool in Modern Warfare came out... Tired of them now. Make them go away. Except the one... from Dark Souls 2... When I died. That was funny.

Edited by Funpire

 

 

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All of his/her other replies were well thought out, rational and rather comprehensive perspectives on the subject so I just laughed that one off and assumed a second read gave him/her a better understanding of my query.

 

But to expand on your comment yes, I am in no way opposed to ladders or leaderboards if it inspires more committed and dedicated players to keep the game open.

 

I am in fact strongly in support of any carrot on a stick that will inspire the self-centered and/or egocentric players to gravitate towards goals that will push them in the direction of the campaigns goals, regardless of whether or not that carrot will inspire or even interest me at all!

 

Hey thanks, sometimes I just like to be goofy.

:wub:

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