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doc gonzo

Personal Political Compass...

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awesome to see not only the Interest, but such thoughtful Conversation..

 

thanks, all...

 

here's one...the Death Penalty....personally for or against...and why?

 

example...i'm against it...not surprising for a big Lefty like me...but as to why i'm against it?

 

i don't think the State EVER has the Right to take the life of a Citizen, ever (this does not count self defense and such...just when it comes to a Citizen who has been restrained and is "in Custody", that making them the State's responsibility...

 

what do YOU folks think?

 

carry on with all of the Convo, and thanks again for the thoughtful and honest discourse....it's way healthy, imo

Edited by Doc Gonzo

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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I am against the death penalty. A civilized society is above such means of recourse. Plus, its incredibly expensive to carry out.

Edited by checkyotrack

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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Against the death penalty. Most people can and should be rehabiliated, though we don't really even make that attempt in the US. Plus, we can never be 100% sure the person was guilty. Its pretty terrible to imagine imprisoning and executing someone who was innocent, but I'm sure we've done it.


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As far as capital punishment I agree with the death penalty except for the fact that a death penalty (in the US at least) does not mean death, it means being locked up in terrible conditions, in solitary no less, for years sometimes decades while you wait for the legal process to finally decide what to do with you. That's why it's expensive.

 

Rehabilitation and death, I can get behind those two ideas. Not expensive drawn out torture.

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What purpose does the death penalty serve other than a glorified show of revenge? It certainly isn't a deterrent. It only serves so the families can get some form of pleasure, satisfaction, or closure via watching a man die which is sick.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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What purpose does the death penalty serve other than a glorified show of revenge? It certainly isn't a deterrent. It only serves so the families can get some form of pleasure, satisfaction, or closure via watching a man die which is sick.

 

 

It serves as a way to rid the world of people who have shown that they won't or cannot change. For those people, it's either death or life imprisonment, and feeding them along with medical costs for the rest of their lives is expensive. What other options are there?

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Exceptbthe death penalty is more costlynthen housing someone for life. Even from a fiscal standpoint its broken.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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Even if life were more expensive than the death penalty, I'd rather have them do life. I don't think we have ever tried actual rehabilitation in the US, so to say they can't change is probably not something we could definitively say.

Edited by eonwe

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It serves as a way to rid the world of people who have shown that they won't or cannot change. For those people, it's either death or life imprisonment, and feeding them along with medical costs for the rest of their lives is expensive. What other options are there?

life imprisonment is actually cheaper in the US than putting someone to Death

 

but are pure cost analysis the only reason for allowing or not allowing the State to take a Citizen's Life?

 

add in the simple fact of Mistakes being made....a life sentence removes the miscreant from Society, yet leaves open the possibility of correcting any error that has occurred....

 

add this to not wanting to give the State authority to Kill a helpless person in their Custody....and you might see why i hold my personal position...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I say fry em!!

 

 

I am against the death penalty. A civilized society is above such means of recourse. Plus, its incredibly expensive to carry out.

I don't like to argue about life in terms of money. because it cheapens life in general. BUT :P wacking a killer is way cheaper then keepin em for 25+ yrs...hands down...jus sayin

 

Also I reject the idea that a civilized society doesnt kill. Many of those who argue this point normally are for euthanasia, health committees (death panels), assisted suicide, abortion, and eugenics. The so called civilized society is more then willing to kill when it wants to...That isn't a valid point. 

 

As civilized as we are, we are still animals and are subject to the laws of nature and of life itself. Even in the animal kingdom a crazy wolf will be killed by its pack. Or abandoned and left alone as prey to other predators. When a human has stepped into the realm of crazy and has actively killed and has become dangerous to the rest of the human pack....It is natural for the rest of humanity to turn on them...it may not be the most "civilized"...but its the most human.

Edited by hillbilly

Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me.

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hillbilly...read me again....i said the State has no Right to kill Citizens...

 

we do that to each other just fine, and then must answer to our Laws and take Responsibility for our actions

 

that's the way it's supposed to work

 

euthanasia - that's between the Patient, their Family and physician...yes?

"health committees" - yeah, i'll talk about it when it's real....do please point to their website, or a legit article about who is even on said "panel" and then we can talk

assisted suicide - same as euthanasia, ain't it?

abortion - up to the woman involved and her doctor, depending on the situation...the Father should have some say, but that's a case by case basis and NO concern of the State, imo

eugenics - ain't seen from that in about 50 years....am i missing something here? but yeah...just say no to eugenics

 

as always, my personal Opinion here...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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Well poorly made socks if the death penalty is more expensive than housing someone for their entire life than I definitely don't agree with the death penalty, but how can that be? Excuse my ignorance please. People on death row spend years and years waiting for execution but people with a life sentence spend the rest of their lives being fed, and cared for medically. How is the former more expensive? 

 

For me it's definitely not just about the money though. I just want whats best for society. I want criminals rehabilitated, definitely. But I also see the reality of the fact that some people have shown again and again by the hardcore crimes they have committed *not talking about armed robbery here* over and over, that there is simply no hope for them.

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I'm pro death penalty. I don't think it makes things "fair". I don't think it is "what they deserve". I think it should be reserved for people who are judged to be dangerous and un-rehabilitate-able. Why should my tax dollars go to paying for the rest of their life? They're a waste of space and just get rid of them.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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heyas folks...

 

...it's called the Political Compass

It's been a long time since I've taken this test. I took it again to see if I had changed...believe it or not, I have:

 

Economic Left/Right: 6.0

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.23

 

There's two main issues that I've changed my mind on, not because anyone convinced me with their arguments, because most of them were not well thought out, and relied on emotions, but because I realized that every time the government touches something they have no business touching, they create a lot of drama, piss people off, and generally screw it all up.

 

For Hillbilly's test that he posted, I got this:

 

You are a: Conservative Anti-Government Total-Isolationist Cosmopolitan Traditionalist

Collectivism score: -67%

Authoritarianism score: -33%

Internationalism score: -100%

Tribalism score: -33%

Liberalism score: -17%

 

Hahahahahahahaha...that's about right.

 

As for the death penalty: I'm for it. I worked in a men's prison as a prison guard at one time. Some people are not able to be rehabilitated. And the cost doesn't mean diddly squat. My issue with housing them for the rest of their lives is that you have murders housed with other criminals who did not murder anyone, but that doesn't stop someone who is in for life, no chance of getting out, from not murdering another inmate. And they do it all the time.

Edited by cheyenne wolfshadow

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thanks again everyone fer indulging yer olde Doc in his meanderings and pondering the ineffable....

 

as you might have guessed, when it comes to the Economics of it all, i'm one for the numbers approach...the macroeconomics 101 from M.i.T. like the IS-LM curve and such...

 

why?

 

the data....the models utilized by the saltwater school are provable, are the most accurate in describing the REality of it all, and have demonstrated time and time and time again to be the more accurate Predictive than any and every "freshwater" approach i've ever seen or heard of...

 

an Example you ask? - a good Read on the 70s stagflation, touching the 90's "lost decade" in Japan, and right up to Now...everyting you could want....a bit wonky just to warn the neophytes....but i think it's a solid read with a ton of good info, and makes some valid Points along the way  http://nyti.ms/18sLw3F

 

some of you will hate it reflexively before you even read a paragraph....just because of WHO wrote it...give it a read, even Milton Friedman recognized the value of good models...

 

and for the less scholarly who are going "Doc, wtf is IS-LM?" 

 

give this a look, and ask if you would like more - http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/is-lmentary/

 

and a bit further here... - http://nyti.ms/1rMK9Ts

 

thoughts?

Edited by Doc Gonzo

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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I read this before.

 

And yes I saw Paul Krugman and went "gah"

 

Krugman is a Keynesian(see socialist) economist which doesn't make everything he says as wrong...mostly just the policies he advocates.

During the 70's when carter was doing everything ole kruggy liked the economy went into the pooper. Now he is spending the next 4 decades making excuses for it.

Just like now Obama economically agrees with krugman and the white house follows a more Keynesian approach. Which is why the economy is again in the crapper. And before someone yells about the dow bubble or the 5.6 manufactured unemployment #'s neither of those things coincide with the 96 million people removed from the employment roles, record high welfare role, and record high disability filings.

 

As for the IS-LM curve...its bullhockey

the economy is dynamic not static. The pie is constantly in flux. The only way it could work is if the gov controls peoples investments.(don't think they don't want too) Because the second that people say "screw bonds I am going gold" the whole friggin lil chart is shot. Oh wait...that's exactly what people are doing. Why Ida know cause cities like Detroit DEFAULTING on their bonds and the US dollar losing its 5star aaa status!! Even foreign $$ is now looking else where to weather the storm. Half of europes $$ is looking for a place to hide before the euro dives like Greece, and China looks more stable then the US Dollar!!!...a-fu-king-mazing!

 

But don't worry Krugman and most of Harvard will spend 4 decades defending Obama's crappy economic policies at nauseam.

with lil pie charts of BS numbers....oh and its all the republicans fault...especially the Bush fella!

 

good grief.

Edited by hillbilly

Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me.

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/facepalm

 

i guess the hard data, and record of accuracy means nothing.... as opposed to say Kudlow, or Moore or Laffer, all who have been spectacularly wrong on each and every count we have them on record for....but folks take them, like the equally proven wrong Ryan as if they were "economists" on par with those who do the whole peer review and check for accuracy thing....

 

i've always found it curious how some otherwise hard nosed pragmatists who ALWAYS measure twice and cut once go all flibbertygibbet when the Political hits, you know...the scientific method....

 

could just be me


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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pfft....the "experts are wrong"...consistently

Krugs has never been about science...he is an advocate for an agenda.

Fine...but lets not confuse him with an empirical data loving, theory proving strict academic scientist.

 

The scientific method is about systematically testing and measuring results in order to prove or disprove a theory hypothesis, or idea. If that's the case then as many times as the Keynesian model has failed you would change the model to try to get better results...but they don't. Because the Keynesian economic model is not about results.

Lastly the Keynesian economic model has been proven to not work. Todays economy is a prime example. With such low interest rates kept low by a Keynesian Fed, politically aligned with the White House, and the ridiculous amount of money we are printing we should be in high cotton economically according to the krugman model. 

 

but WE ARE NOT!

 

It has been and always will be about CONTROL...er I mean GOVERN. Just like the euros who governed control of their peoples retirement savings, and pension funds. Why because we (the governing class) know better how to use that money for society. Sure they'll send you a welfare check so you can subsist on your daily ration instead of living comfortable on your hard earned savings. But you should be happy that you are GOVERN'D so well.

 

Control Doc...its all about control from a centralized government. I got taught the same rubbish you posted when I went to college.


Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me.

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interesting indeed...

 

first, thank you Hillbilly...i'm very glad to have an open an Honest discussion concerning all the various Subjects that touch upon this Topic....and Economics is one of my personal interests, so the chance to geek out in a wonkish manner is always welcome...

 

let's to it, then...

 

 


Krugs has never been about science...he is an advocate for an agenda.

Fine...but lets not confuse him with an empirical data loving, theory proving strict academic scientist.

 

here's where i begin to disagree....the very Post i linked to, with the linkages inside the Articles themselves, very clearly demonstrate the Scientific method by definition...if you like i can also link to dated Posts and published Papers by him showing how WRONG his Model was for Japan in the 90s when it failed to predict the Stagflation that Japan suffered....

 

so Krugman reworked his Model to fit the Facts, not any Theory...built and rebuilt it until it was accurate, then tested it for ability to be Predictive ( you know, how Science advances an Hypothesis)...these Papers were indeed peer reviewed and have proven very accurate...the work he did there concerning what happens at the "zero lower bound" of Interest Rates proved to not only accurately model what was going on in Japan, but predicted each step of what would occur after each tweak by Abe's administration...

 

this same Model has been used by Krugman, quite publicly in real time, over the last 8 years to explain and predict the U.S. economy as we hit that self same "zero lower bound", and even is used to compare the U.S. and E.U. responses to the "great Recession" as well as each Nation's results depending on their Policies chosen...

 

the Record is there....he even has comparisons between his predictive Models and the claims by other Economists/Pundits to demonstrate the differences in assumptions and predictive results... if it would help, just ask and i'll dig out a handful for you to peruse at your leisure...there are some which calculate how you would have done in the Market following his Advice and compares it to Kudlow/Moore/Laffer and other "freshwater" sources...

 

links to the freshwater types screaming we will be Greece, Greece i tell you...or even worse Weimar style hyperinflation and so on...with dates and Quotes

 

and then links to the actual data

 

so, coming at it as an electronics engineering tech, i'm always just interested in the acid test...does the "machine" go "ping" properly?

 

my readings/research demonstrates quite clearly, using empirical data and rigorous fact checking, that Krugman, among other M.i.T. trained neo-Keynesians...have proven to be the most accurate Predictors and their Models the closest to representing the Reality of it all, over any other "school of thought" on the Subject...

 

now, as to the rest...i tend to Agree on the Principle here...

 

i am very anti-Authoritarian...but i rebel against both Corporate as well as Governmental "control"....and since i see the U.S. as a "soft fascist police state" at this point in HIstory, there's a lot i don't like...

 

you and i differ in our determination of where the "oppression" is coming from, and how to look at/determine the baseline...and how to repair the Damage

 

hence why i ALWAYS listen to intelligent folks, no matter if i agree or not...cuz there may be something of Value there

 

in this case, i offer something i think has Value....accurate Economic modeling....up to you and each Reader to determine for yourselves, the Worth of said Offering...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I can only add one thing to the conversation at this point.

 

But don't worry Krugman and most of Harvard will spend 4 decades defending Obama's crappy economic policies at nauseam.

 

It's "ad nauseam". Something has been repeated so often it brings the listener to the point of nausea.

 

You're welcome!


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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