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willwill

Progression? Camelot Unchained & Crowfall Comparison

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While I haven't been following Shards as I'm not into isometric, I'm assuming you can have something similar. Monarch can flag for PVP and ta da, everyone can kill one another or however it will work. But it still runs into the Uncle Bob situation. If they wanted to copy the basic idea behind most other games of this sort, they could have, but they didn't and for a very clear reason. Trying to shoehorn in DFO or UO or any other game system won't work as it simply isn't those games or like them.

You are Allein on the EQN forums also, right?


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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But it is more like a private server since you could be kicked from it for killing the "EK" owner? 

So?

 

Anything you can or will be able to do with the EKs are just toppings.

It is some extra fun you can choose to do.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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So?

 

Anything you can or will be able to do with the EKs are just toppings.

It is some extra fun you can choose to do.

 

It is also fine but what does "Risk vs Reward" mean in that case?

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I like to think of the EKs as a trophy room, made solely for people to show off epeen and feel they have some power.

 

Make the insecure guy feel like he has some power by banning someone who kills him, then watch him cry as he gets his arse handed to him in dregs.

 

The EK is just a physical representation of a achievement panel.

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It is also fine but what does "Risk vs Reward" mean in that case?

That is applied to the the campaigns also, since that is where you get your rewards.

The embargo system we were told about today really is very specific about this.

You can risk going to the embargo spots and get killed on the way and not get anything from that haul.

You can risk putting items into the embargo, but is that wise considering it could be used to help you win?

 

 

And before you go on with "What use are the rewards if I can't use them for anything" let me point out a few things.

 

First of all, there will be campaigns where you can bring things into. This much is clear from several sources. Most likely even from the get go, since we have been assured there will be different rulesets for even the Dregs.

 

Second, even if you do not bring any of your rewards to another campaign, it can still be used to build things on your personal claim. This is the trophy effect and it IS important to many people to have something to show, even if its pointless to others.

 

Finally, and the most important to me, what IS a reward? The points above are two kinds of rewards. One could be considered useful, but only if you go to places where it can be used. The other is a way of remembering how well you are doing (like buying an expensive car, house, watch etc)

Are rewards even needed? Do they have to be permenent? A cookie as a reward is a transient reward. You have it til you eat it. Will you put it on display or save it til it becomes useful in some odd way? Or will you just eat it and feel good for a bit?

To some people, the reward is in winning. What you get afterwards doesn't matter really. These people are driven because it makes them feel good to win (cookie)

For others the reward is in the game itself. Winning or losing is not the end goal. The interaction with others are. Going back and forth, trying to think of clever ways to do things, become important to your guild (no matter if you won or lose) etc.

 

They all have the same thing in common. The goal that you should feel good in some way.

Why we feel good is very different.

It is almost impossible to cover all the ways of getting the players to feel like they win in some way, but so far I think ACE is covering the biggest bases pretty well.

 

For a deeper insight on making the players feel like they get win situations, please read this from Dave Georgeson.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/9437/Dave-Georgeson-on-Creating-New-Worlds.html

 

There are more in depth pieces on the whole concept, but you will have to do some digging yourself if you are interested.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I like to think of the EKs as a trophy room, made solely for people to show off epeen and feel they have some power.

 

Make the insecure guy feel like he has some power by banning someone who kills him, then watch him cry as he gets his arse handed to him in dregs.

 

The EK is just a physical representation of a achievement panel.

While I agree with you, I dont think we have to talk down to people that feel good about these things.

There are a lot of people that need this exact mechanic to feel that there are any point to playing a game at all.

 

That is fine with me


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I like to think of the EKs as a trophy room, made solely for people to show off epeen and feel they have some power.

 

Make the insecure guy feel like he has some power by banning someone who kills him, then watch him cry as he gets his arse handed to him in dregs.

 

The EK is just a physical representation of a achievement panel.

 

Pretty much. It works out fine for the pvpers in the dregs, it only affects the crafters, traders, political metagamers - essentially anyone who wants a permanent economy and social hub beyond the campaigns.

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While I agree with you, I dont think we have to talk down to people that feel good about these things.

There are a lot of people that need this exact mechanic to feel that there are any point to playing a game at all.

 

That is fine with me

I'm talking down to the player who would ban someone for killing them not general EK users.

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Pretty much. It works out fine for the pvpers in the dregs, it only affects the crafters, traders, political metagamers - essentially anyone who wants a permanent economy and social hub beyond the campaigns.

I have to comment on this, because everytime I see it, I feel like there is a flaw in that reasoning. (So not a personal attack here)

 

The crafters, traders and political metagamers will have lots to keep them busy in the campaigns.

It is true, that if you add the "beyond the campaigns" on to it, but imagine that the game did not have the EKs at all.

There would STILL be a perfectly good game then, with all the things you point out.

 

Having the EKs is a way of creating a "win" feeling for a certain kind of players. A rather large pool of players actually.

They are not there to create a whole other game on top of it.

 

I realise that it have been expressed, that the EKs could be a place for trading and have some PvP etc etc

But considering the kinds of players this game attracts first of all, I am not sure that the majority of players will even be interested in this.

 

The people on the forums are not the majority of people that are backing this game.

We are the ones that are more social, the ones that are more engaged in HOW things work and the ones that like PvP to such an extreme, that even "winning" on forums counts for something.

We are usually pretty extreme people in any regard hehe

I'm talking down to the player who would ban someone for killing them not general EK users.

Hehe, leave them be also.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I have to comment on this, because everytime I see it, I feel like there is a flaw in that reasoning. (So not a personal attack here)

 

The crafters, traders and political metagamers will have lots to keep them busy in the campaigns.

It is true, that if you add the "beyond the campaigns" on to it, but imagine that the game did not have the EKs at all.

There would STILL be a perfectly good game then, with all the things you point out.

 

Having the EKs is a way of creating a "win" feeling for a certain kind of players. A rather large pool of players actually.

They are not there to create a whole other game on top of it.

 

I realise that it have been expressed, that the EKs could be a place for trading and have some PvP etc etc

But considering the kinds of players this game attracts first of all, I am not sure that the majority of players will even be interested in this.

 

The people on the forums are not the majority of people that are backing this game.

We are the ones that are more social, the ones that are more engaged in HOW things work and the ones that like PvP to such an extreme, that even "winning" on forums counts for something.

We are usually pretty extreme people in any regard hehe

 

It is about a feeling of winning, sure, since having a fully built and populated EK would feel nice. But even this isn't that important since it is an instance. The social hub, we could probably do without, since most guilds socialize on their forums and voice chat. Of course, having a visual social hub when you are not in the mood for pvp is nice, but not necessary. Mostly, its about economic power, because without the EKs there is no economy - people who don't win the campaigns would either literally have nothing, or very little. There would be no crafting except for what the winners were lucky enough to take with them from the campaigns. So I do think it serves a much bigger purpose than a status symbol or a social hub, even if those are also valid.

Edited by Mytherceria

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Pretty much. It works out fine for the pvpers in the dregs, it only affects the crafters, traders, political metagamers - essentially anyone who wants a permanent economy and social hub beyond the campaigns.

But the problem how the crafters will affect on my gameplay if they will stay in EK or easymode servers if I will play on Dregs? So this system makes Dregs isolated from crafter... No... Crafter and Diplomats and biggest part of EK supporters being isolated from Dregs. So I will have to lvl crafting on my own and the part with diplomacy wont work without a "World". What is the point for Diplomacy if you are inside the instanced world? :-) These are my concerns

Edited by bassa

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But the problem how the crafters will affect on my gameplay if they will stay in EK or easymode servers if I will play on Dregs? So this system makes Dregs isolated from crafter... No... Crafter and Diplomats and biggest part of EK supporter being isolated from Dregs. So I will have to lvl crafting on my own and the part with diplomacy wont work without a "World". What is the point for Diplomacy if you are inside the instanced world? :-) These are my concerns

 

I think all I can say is this is a very messy situation and I wonder if the devs have quite figured it out yet. I am guessing the only thing that will exist for the dregs player, is the dregs. It will truly be starting over, including crafting and the economy. There will be no reason to buy or take anything out of the dregs, and the only reason to play there is to pvp.

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But the problem how the crafters will affect on my gameplay if they will stay in EK or easymode servers if I will play on Dregs? So this system makes Dregs isolated from crafter... No... Crafter and Diplomats and biggest part of EK supporter being isolated from Dregs. So I will have to lvl crafting on my own and the part with diplomacy wont work without a "World". What is the point for Diplomacy if you are inside the instanced world? :-) These are my concerns

Don't worry.

There will be crafters in all the worlds.

 

We might be expensive because the rest of you only want to swing our wares around, but we will be there.

 

We will be the new healers.

So few of us, that you have to kiss our butts.

 

;-)


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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But the problem how the crafters will affect on my gameplay if they will stay in EK or easymode servers if I will play on Dregs? So this system makes Dregs isolated from crafter... No... Crafter and Diplomats and biggest part of EK supporters being isolated from Dregs. So I will have to lvl crafting on my own and the part with diplomacy wont work without a "World". What is the point for Diplomacy if you are inside the instanced world? :-) These are my concerns

 

I'm pretty sure the idea in non-import campaigns (and all campaigns, long term) is that you craft your own stuff, know someone that can craft it for you, or buy/steal/extort it from someone in the campaign itself.

 

Campaigns are all sort of intended to develop their own internal logic and economies based on variables and rulesets, right? In a world that's mostly covered by wood, wood is cheap. In a world mostly covered by treeless mountains, wood is probably more expensive, but stone might be cheap.

 

In campaigns that allow you to bring stuff in, you're probably not going to survive an entire campaign working off of just what you brought in at the beginning. You're going to need crafters on your team, or if you have no team and are lone wolfin' it you're going to need to provide for yourself one way or another.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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It's risk vs reward.

 

FFA: high risk and high reward.

GVG: medium risk, medium reward.

12 RVR: some risk, some reward.

3 RVR: little risk, little reward.

EK: no risk, no reward.

 

Play at whichever level you wish.

And the reward is so you can build a house in your EK with no risk, right?

The additional campaigns are stretch goals, as confirmed by the developers on a recent mmorpg.com article, did you see it? So at least 1.4 mil or 1.5 mil will be needed before they even consider releasing any other campaign but the original one in the next 1.5 years

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Zero looting in CU. The economy of that game is going to go swampy fast. Crowfall on the other hand allows item decay and on some of the rulesets item looting. 

There is only 1 ruleset without another 500k at least, well another ruleset in the next 1.5 years at least.

 

 

 

The EK isn't the game, The dying worlds are

So the dying worlds that are not persistent and reset every few months is the game?

Edited by willwill

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So the dying worlds that are not persistent and reset every few months is the game?

Yes, that is the main game.

 

How did you miss this?

Do you know the reason behind the idea of the worlds coming to an end?

The actual idea behind the mechanic, not the lore part.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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So the dying worlds that are not persistent and reset every few months is the game?

 

Yes. I thought that was pretty clear from the kickstarter pitch and all associated information after.

 

The main point of the game is starting, playing, and winning campaigns.

 

Not "what you win from the campaign" but literally winning the campaigns.

 

EKs are a fancy trophy room where you can show off how good you are at starting with nothing or next to nothing, building an army, and crushing all opposition, and doing that over, and over, and over.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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It is also fine but what does "Risk vs Reward" mean in that case?

 

Yes. I thought that was pretty clear from the kickstarter pitch and all associated information after.

 

The main point of the game is starting, playing, and winning campaigns.

 

Not "what you win from the campaign" but literally winning the campaigns.

 

EKs are a fancy trophy room where you can show off how good you are at starting with nothing or next to nothing, building an army, and crushing all opposition, and doing that over, and over, and over.

You can also win World Vs World Vs World  in Guild wars 2. Do you really think that progression is going to sustain players to keep playing? Has nobody thought this through?  I am not a developer, but i can tell you the mindset of the average pvp'er, and the one's who are backing this game is. "Kill, loot, kill loot,kill loot,kill loot, FK I LOST ALL MY STUFF, RAGE QUIT" yawn. I'm bored, when's the next game releasing?  

 

Name one FFA LOOT pvp server that has lasted more than 6 months or a year in the last 10 years?  Darkfall?  Please don't talk to me about free player run shards, i am talking about active mmorpgs.

 

Have you ever been on a FFA real mmorpg server? I played andred from the start, until the very last day when it was closed down, ok i lie. I quit like most people did when the population dropped so low, because Mark refused to merge the server with mordred until it was too late, i just told him the other day i am still disgruntled at him about it. It's still a memory i cannot let go of, nevermind warhammer's fail. But doesn't mean everything is going to fail. Should i have quit life when i was making 25k a year instead of the 5-10x that i make now?

 

Anyway, moot point but just because you've made mistakes previously, doesn't mean it will continue.

 

FFA pvp servers let alone FFA LOOT do not sustain themselves, so you think resetting them every 3 months is going to magically change this? If they don't add a progression system then they are seriously shattting the bed.

 

We all want ffa pvp, i am definitely not a RVR first type of guy...  But, as i've grown older, i've realized this type of pvp just won't last in mmorpgs.

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