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Katzemensch

Is This Too Hardcore To Survive?

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I figured that someone would mention Lineage 1 & 2.

 

You've got somewhat of a point with Lineage 1, but it's really hard to tell, since they stopped actively reporting data on it in 2008, when both games dropped below 1 million accounts.

 

 

Lineage 1 is the biggest game in Korea (and has been so consistently for many years) and the only game worldwide to make more money is WoW. The Koreans love it.

Edited by leiloni

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I figured that someone would mention Lineage 1 & 2.

 

You've got somewhat of a point with Lineage 1, but it's really hard to tell, since they stopped actively reporting data on it in 2008, when both games dropped below 1 million accounts.

 

I don't know when the "19 million" count came from, but Wikipedia shows it being at 1.6 million active accounts (which, as I've pointed out before talking about EVE, is not the same as 1.6 million players - between people dual-boxing and companies running bot mules, the actual count is lower)in 2006, which matches the chart linked above (and the chart showed it peaking at just over 2 million in early 2006). I'd like some concrete data for the 19 million claim. I'd also be interested in hearing why it suddenly dropped more than half a million customers - around a third of their player base - in less than a year (early 2006 = 2.3 million, late 2006 = 1.6 million).

 

I've never played Lineage 1 and don't have enough information to go on with regard to how "hardcore" its PvP is, but I know for a fact that Lineage 2 isn't completely free-for-all - not in the way that some people here (like BraveSirRobin) are expecting. There are several mechanics in the game that deter or outright prevent FFA PvP. Safe-zones in towns and castles provide full protection for anyone in them. Reputation and CP systems were things that deterred people from random attacks. And owning/controlling castles, in and of itself, was a very limited, restricted PvP scenario. The people who controlled the Castles knew that they wouldn't have to defend them except in very narrow time windows that they could control. And, from what I've heard, some of the high-end Guilds went out of their way to manipulate the "attacks" on their Castles, getting other Guilds that they were allied with to create assaults on the Castles that they would deliberately lose so that the Castle would continue to be owned and controlled by the same Guild for extended periods of time, with people who WANTED to challenge them not having the opportunity to do so. I don't know if that's been fixed. So, no, Lineage 2, at least, does not really qualify as "FFA."

 

With regard to the private servers, I encourage you to go look for them. See how many of them boast, "Non-PvP!" or something similar?

 

Another point worth looking at for Lineage 2 is that in 2011, due to a shrinking player base, they switched to a "Free-to-Play" model. They launched three new servers within two months, and proudly boasted that the F2P model revived their player base, growing it significantly. And yet... in the three years since then, they haven't launched even one more new server.

 

Now, with all of that said - most of what is being said about Crowfall, and especially the "Dregs" servers as we currently understand them, will be even more "hardcore" than Lineage 2. There's no point in designing an entire physics engine that is designed for blowing up and breaking down fortresses, if people are just going to be able to just protect them. A large part of the game will involve capturing and/or destroying enemy strongholds. And I don't have a problem with that, within reason.

 

 

 

As french people say, Tu est d'une mauvaise foie...

 

In lineage 2 you could attack everybody, even the guards outside the city. ( only once before insta death. But you could )

You could go totally solo. But players prefered competitive PVP in clans.

 

And yes, castle strategies were totaly accepted because they were fun, and counterables. ( when you were good enough to know how )

 

 

 

And if lineage 2 ended up somewhat dying slowly, it's because it is based  on progresion, in a static world. 

 

Do you remember why the devs of this game wanted to make campaigns?

 

 

 

I wasn't the one who used that phrase, nor have I ever badmouthed PvP'ers, regardless of how "hardcore" any given player is (or imagines themselves). And, note, that I'm one of the people who is actually encouraging a broader spectrum of PvP gameplay - I know that there's people who want to have completely lawless, uncontrolled PvP. And I know that there are other people, myself included, who think that's going too far, and would like some limits on just how uncontrolled the PvP is.

 

And, for what it's worth, I think you're only half-right. The kind of people in a game depends on both the people and the game. The game needs to have an enjoyable, fun gameplay system. The players need to have ways to share their fun with other players within that gameplay system. The guy who goes and kills and camps new players by the newbie warp-in spot isn't doing that - they're driving players away from the system. Hopefully, the game will have some system that gives people a way to learn how to play the game without being forced to drop into the deep end immediately. Sure, some players thrive on that. Not all do, though, and trying to force the people who need a shallower learning curve into being dropped in the deep end will just result in them logging out and uninstalling.

 

 

> The guy who goes and kills and camps new players by the newbie warp

 

 

I don't know how could this be benefical for someone who wants to win a campaign.

 

 

and even less if arrows are finite.

 

 

 

 

 

For what it's worth: Before WoW, I was a total carebear. I didn't want PvP. Hearing tales of those mage-knights fireballing new players as they left towns in Ultima Online is what kept me from even playing UO until many, many years later. But I was willing to give PvP a chance with WoW, and I ended up joining a Horde server from Ars Technica, the Brute Squad. And while I still didn't get all gung-ho for killing random people, I did engage in a few "luaus" when the guild as a whole descended on enemy factions and utterly controlled the area for hours at a time, usually because one of our own was being camped. I've sieged Southshore, controlled the Eastern Plaguelands at a time when that was a major location for all the high-level players to be, and stormed every Alliance capital all in the same night. I have killed the Rogues who thought that they were ambushing me, rezzed after death and killed the people who thought they were camping me, and ambushed players in Booty Bay so that a guildmember could win the Fishing Contest.

 

I may not be the uber-hardcore PvP'er that some of the posters here think they are. But I am not a whine-to-the-GMs, no-PvP carebear. And when Crowfall launches, and you invade my team's stronghold, I will kill you with my Forge Hammer when you interrupt my crafting. ;)

 

 

That sounds pretty hardcore to me. Nice how you transformed yourself from a carebear into an ally-slayer. I guess after so many repetitive raid, you started looking for something diferent and found it ;)

 

Maybe with diferent worlds, and diferent levels of dificulty, we will end up seeing us all in the dregs :o

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As someone who is way into hardcore PvP, the worst thing for this game is the circlejerking from hardcore PvP players. So many posts are implying how bad more casual players are, calling them carebears, and other dumb things.

 

hardcore PvP games have communities that eat themselves

 

They are niche communities because some of the people in them are really intolerable. If you don't have the more casual players (people that might play in rulesets other than the Dregs), this game isn't going to make it. hardcore PvP players need people to kill, otherwise its just the same people ganking each other over and over like it always ends up being

This is exactly right.

 

The Devs are very clever. They'll implement the two extremes (Dregs and EK) and then fill in the middle. They need more than only the hardest of hardcore PVPers; they need the whole spectrum of PVPers.


Kickstarter Backer #1070

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I have a feeling many will act that way here. Some people only have that kind of drive if they are winning, but some of us are just too hard headed to give up. 

 

 

You can act like that. And so can you guild. And the guilds you're allied with and the ones you're fighting against. What if 30% of the players are quitters? 30% of the enemy leaving would turn a reasonable matchup into a whitewash. And with Dregs being the only ruleset at first all of the less hardcore players are going to be there ready to leave their side hanging. ACE really does have to make sure there is a reason to stick with a loss at release, the most critical time for a game.

 

Again, I haven't read everything, so bear with me....

 

As long as a player is permanently locked into those more softcore campaigns then I'm fine with it. What I'm not fine with is an extremely easy campaign being out there for people to skill up and gain a ton of resources, and then later when campaigns reset them switching over and coming to play with the big boys with all of the toys that they got in the WoW-like campaign. If one wants to go to the big pond to play with the big fish, they should have to earn their way in the big pond. They shouldn't be allowed to dine in minnows in the kiddie pool until they feel they are fat enough to jump into the big pond. 

 

Why do you care?

 

Lets assume for a second that the designers do a good job. We backed so presumably that isn't contentious.

 

Your opponents have some loot. Unless this is a Terminator rules campaign it came from whatever they did before. Was it spoils from a war between the game's two best guilds? Did they gank noobs? Had to trade for it after a brutal loss? They started the game 5mins ago and a friend gave them everything? ACE introduced PvE campaigns and they got it there? ACE loses their minds and sell it in a cash shop?

 

You have no idea and it doesn't even matter. As long as the import caps are kept low. If ACE gets it right the import rules balance players by preventing someone from starting with a big advantage they built up in previous campaigns, no matter how hardcore. Thats all that matters for PvP. Everyone should start even, no matter if they lost or won. Being able to start with way better gear because you won Hardcore Mode last time is a much bigger issue than someone being equal by chain losing Easy Mode. The fact that the devs have addressed this already is why I'm here.

 

As for skills we all train those passively after a short initial phase. So thats the absolute most softcore progression system ever. Is it a problem to you that someone can 'level' passively for three months before even playing a campaign?


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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For those that keep asking where the Dregs only at start up came from here is your answer: J. Todd Coleman.

 

 

Yes, to be clear, we are only promising the EK + Dregs for the initial $800k, so the speed at which we bring the other rulesets online depends on the overall trajectory of the KS campaign and our ability to come up with other money.  Give it another week and I'll be able to give you better insight, but as of right now, things look really positive.

 

More details posted in another thread titled, "Question about the scope of the KS campaign".

 

Todd

ACE

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/3137-so-only-the-dregs-ruleset-being-funded-by-this-particular-ks/page-3#entry77760

 

As someone else posted pages upon pages back, as the Devs get more money more campaigns will get designed.

Edited by gauis

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hardcore PvP games have communities that eat themselves

 

This is nonsense. The forums might be allways plagued with average minded cryers, since nobody here is a genius.

 

 

But the competitive PVP comunity is one of the most welcoming comunity I have met over my years of mmorpgs.

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But the competitive PVP comunity is one of the most welcoming comunity I have met over my years of mmorpgs.

 

I have to agree with this, there is a lot less bile going around than I expected (read remember from SB and Darkfall). Let's hope that lasts past launch!

 

Either that, or bring out the spin doctors.

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Everyone refers to the 2 extremes as if you have a choice of the 2 to suit your preference, The dregs and EK.

 

The EK is not a stand alone component of the game. You must do campaigns to do much of the EK, so thus, you really are going to have to do a campaign, and if the dregs is all that is available, then you are doing the extreme hardcore many think they can avoid in the EK.

 

Not a great scenario for success unless ACE is truly only catering to the extreme crowd that prefers the Dregs.

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First, let me say that I've backed the Kickstarter, and I'm hoping that my understanding here is flawed. But the comments I've been seeing are not making this look good.

 

I made a thread in the Suggestions about having short-duration Campaigns for new players to learn, for the people who aren't capable of the idea of dropping into the deep end and swimming like a champ from the start. And the responses I've gotten have indirectly reduced my enthusiasm, and are making me wonder if this isn't setting itself up for failure.

 

Posts from armegeddon and sneaky_squirrel make it sound like the Devs are struggling for resources, and the game is going to launch with only the hardest of the hardcore modes - that Dregs Campaigns will be the only thing possible at launch. Which, in my mind, is kind of neglecting some of the sales pitch from the Kickstarter.

 

If the devs are struggling for resources that much, then they're failing before they even start. That's catering to the fringiest of the fringe players, the people who put in 10+ hours a day and expect everyone else to do the same. Other MMOs have tried that in the past, and either died or quickly changed their focus in order to survive. It's just not a big enough audience. EVE Online started with something not far from that (when even the "high-sec" places could be PVP killing fields with only weak, inefficient protection from CONCORD). They had to beef up the protections in high-sec to break into a wider audience, and they're now thriving by allowing even "care-bears" to have a place to play without constantly being in fear of gank patrols.

 

While there's definitely a section of the PvP populace who thinks that hunting down and killing weaker opponents all day long is a great deal of fun, the flip side is that there's nobody who relishes the idea of a game where you can't accomplish anything without constantly being ganked, looted, and forced to respawn all over again.

 

Like I said at the start, I've backed the Kickstarter, because this does sound like a new, different concept in MMO gameplay. The Kickstarter focuses on the best and brightest possibilities and details. But the discussions here seem to be telling a different tale, and what I'm hearing sounds dire and bleak.

 

 

 

An easy way to do this is allow some items to be protected from dropping for a (high) cost and only having one random item from what is left drop on death. 

 

That system has worked very well in other games and allows you to actually use some of the rare loot in pvp situations. 

 

 

That being said even in UO's full loot pvp while it was rare people would bust out there high end Halbred's for pvp once they were rich and established enough. 

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That being said even in UO's full loot pvp while it was rare people would bust out there high end Halbred's for pvp once they were rich and established enough. 

 

I remember early days in UO there was a PK that rolled in full invulr and vanq weapons. Still, usually it was robes and chaos shield.

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Well this is mostly speculation since we don't know how gear works. But I'm assuming a nice set of gear isn't making similar toons 3 times as effective as a normally geared one. I'm imaging something like eve where someone with an insanely expensive fit will more often than nothing be mercilessly killed by more skilled, cheaper fitted players, who may or may not have a numerical advantage losing it all. And I think that last part is important, there's item decay which I'm assuming is permanent. The idea of some people starting with more gear worries me less than them starting with more organisation. Fear teamwork, not shinies.

 

Speaking of which. I'm assuming the game won't be too hardcore because like in other PVP centered games. There's strength in numbers. From the most elite streaming tourney winning pro, to the most scrubby clueless laggy noob.  The majority of them are going to crew up. So presumably, it's not going to be Dayz with skill progression.

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Not a great scenario for success unless ACE is truly only catering to the extreme crowd that prefers the Dregs.

 

As I said on page 1, the Dregs is merely the FFA ruleset. They will not all have the same loot, export/import, decay, etc. rules. Those are the rules that get changed. The picture was only an example ruleset, but there will be a variety of campaigns that are "Dregs" campaigns - some hardcore, some not, some in between, etc. 

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As I said on page 1, the Dregs is merely the FFA ruleset. They will not all have the same loot, export/import, decay, etc. rules. Those are the rules that get changed. The picture was only an example ruleset, but there will be a variety of campaigns that are "Dregs" campaigns - some hardcore, some not, some in between, etc. 

 

Look up the page a bit for the quote and link to the quote from the Devs. The fundamental problem here - and the cause for me to create this thread - is the unclear nature of the statement, and how people are interpreting it.

 

If they're saying that we'll only have EK + Dregs at launch, I still believe that's a disaster that will be hard, if not impossible, to overcome. "Middle-Range" PvPers will be forced to engage in a ruthless, kill-or-be-killed world, and many of them will leave. Most of those that leave will never come back. The "Launch Week" of an MMO is a make-or-break time, and the gaming community / MMO community solidify their opinions based on how the game works at launch.

 

If, on the other hand, they mean that they're only going to be working with EK + Dregs at Alpha and early Beta, the problem becomes much less severe. The beta testers will help find and tune the balanced nature of the game, and by the time we reach Launch, there will be multiple game modes, with people having a choice - they won't have to dive straight into the Dregs, with its kill-or-be-killed strategy, and its winner-takes-all reward system.

 

Which is why I'm not assuming the worst, here, and waiting for more data before I reach any conclusions. The Kickstarter still has three weeks for them to give us more information, with which we can make informed decisions.

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I'm hoping this is the true hardcore experience in MMO (in the dregs server of course where I will live). The great thing about crowfall is that if you don't want that you can choose from a wide variety of easier servers that make teams for you in the form of factions.

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If they're saying that we'll only have EK + Dregs at launch, I still believe that's a disaster that will be hard, if not impossible, to overcome. "Middle-Range" PvPers will be forced to engage in a ruthless, kill-or-be-killed world, and many of them will leave. Most of those that leave will never come back. The "Launch Week" of an MMO is a make-or-break time, and the gaming community / MMO community solidify their opinions based on how the game works at launch.

 

That is so true. The only rough launch I've been through where the game has held onto a large amount of its early players is EverQuest. People would sit in the log-in "lobbies" for hours ,day after day, waiting for the servers to come back up while misspelled messages from Verant scrolled across the screen. But, there weren't many MMO options in 1999. Those early days were rough. 

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That is so true. The only rough launch I've been through where the game has held onto a large amount of its early players is EverQuest. People would sit in the log-in "lobbies" for hours ,day after day, waiting for the servers to come back up while misspelled messages from Verant scrolled across the screen. But, there weren't many MMO options in 1999. Those early days were rough. 

 

Something to keep in mind here is Crowfall can have hundreds of 'launches'.

 

It will launch with the Dregs ruleset. Then a bit later launch the GvG ruleset. Then a bit later launch the GodWar ruleset. And on and on.

 

So, like the weather in most places these days - if you don't like it wait a minute, it'll change. :)


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Something to keep in mind here is Crowfall can have hundreds of 'launches'.

 

It will launch with the Dregs ruleset. Then a bit later launch the GvG ruleset. Then a bit later launch the GodWar ruleset. And on and on.

 

So, like the weather in most places these days - if you don't like it wait a minute, it'll change. :)

I'm not likely to play a hardcore ruleset in the Dregs for a year while they work on rolling out the other planetary rulesets. 

 

I play games that are challenging and social and fun.   They've got the challenging (to the point of punishing) part down but the social group right now has too high a percentage of idjuts for the social part to fly and there's no fun in the game for me as it's been defined so far.

 

They're going to have to build and launch this game with the hardcore PvP'ers as their base.  It's what Wildstar did with the hardcore raiders except they did not rely on the funding from the players. Hopefully the PvP'ers will be enough to get it launched and a year or two onward so that people with not so rigid playstyles can find fun in the game when they expand the rulesets.

 

 


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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I play games that are challenging and social and fun.   They've got the challenging (to the point of punishing) part down but the social group right now has too high a percentage of idjuts for the social part to fly and there's no fun in the game for me as it's been defined so far.

 

Who is the one now coming off like the "idjut"? Only an idiot would think that they can't find people they enjoy spending time with because the games rules might be harsher than they prefer. 


Rhend - SB - Hy'shen/Avari || Rhend - AA - LotD || Dynereir - SB - House Lok-ri || Magius/Amok - AC - Too many to list

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