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Ace Please Make A Statement Regarding The Combat System.

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I can say that DFO and MO community does not spend time here on the forum and it is dominated by GW and Tera lovers. Also that system is bad for many points and it is easy to play. If they are going to listen to the community and this community is 99% of fake non target lovers I want to hear ACE's statement what they want it to be. I tried to play these games but I am not able to love the game with no skill demand. Also Skyforge, its another Tera style game in which I spent 5 min after downloading. 

Why are you so sure? 

 

They've said so already, read the dev tracker. But TERA was definitely non-target and one of the best combat of any game. You clearly didn't play it very much if you think it was fake non-targeting. There was nothing fake about it, it was completely non-targeted.

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Tera is not a skillful combat system. Even WoW is much more skillful. But I still want to hear an official statement with their vision of the combat. The thing in Tera system which is weird is "no prediction", shoot while holding crosshair on your enemy = hit. Range defined by the game mechanics so you can't hit an enemy from 51 meter if the maximum range is 50. Why so?

Holy hell if you think WoW was MORE skillful than Tera you have lost all credibility...

No Tera wasn't the best game, not even the best combat but damn you had to HIT skill shots, WoW is tab target spam your abilities.

and EVERY game has a range limit... No idea why you even brought that up...


TSGH

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Holy hell if you think WoW was MORE skillful than Tera you have lost all credibility...

No Tera wasn't the best game, not even the best combat but damn you had to HIT skill shots, WoW is tab target spam your abilities.

and EVERY game has a range limit... No idea why you even brought that up...

He isn't entirely incorrect.  Tera required slightly more mechanics (a step in the right direction) but WoW had much more depth to the strategy while still having pretty important emphasis on movement, camera control and positioning. 

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Holy hell if you think WoW was MORE skillful than Tera you have lost all credibility...

No Tera wasn't the best game, not even the best combat but damn you had to HIT skill shots, WoW is tab target spam your abilities.

and EVERY game has a range limit... No idea why you even brought that up...

I am really sorry but it seems you never played Arena in WoW. Tera is not skill shots, since no prediction, it has some kind of system to make handless thinking they are doing skillshots

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He isn't entirely incorrect.  Tera required slightly more mechanics (a step in the right direction) but WoW had much more depth to the strategy while still having pretty important emphasis on movement, camera control and positioning. 

 

That's not true. Have you really played endgame TERA? It requires as much strategy and the action combat elements are tacked on top. I've seen people who were top in Arena in WoW come play TERA and still not be at the top in TERA - although they did fairly well.

 

 

I am really sorry but it seems you never played Arena in WoW. Tera is not skill shots, since no prediction, it has some kind of system to make handless thinking they are doing skillshots

 

There's no auto aim in TERA, it's all manual aiming based on the hitboxes.

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Indi? Enough. And what is action combat? Where you have to aim your hit? Where you personal skill is not framed by the game mechanics or the one where you can use autoaim without prediction and land all the hits cause by attacking while your crosshair on the target means hit? 

How many is enough?  There's no such thing as game mechanics that won't frame your skill, because your skill is always operating within the mechanics of the game.

 

I want crowfall to require as much skill as possible, because I want to be challenged by really skilled players.  Your agenda seems a little different than mine though. 

Edited by Sheen

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That's not true. Have you really played endgame TERA? It requires as much strategy and the action combat elements are tacked on top. I've seen people who were top in Arena in WoW come play TERA and still not be at the top in TERA - although they did fairly well.

 

 

 

There's no auto aim in TERA, it's all manual aiming based on the hitboxes.

 

Did they play tera as much as they played WoW to practice?  Did tera have enough players and a pvp system to encourage people to push it to the very limits?  These all factor in to how good a player might get.  Also what do you consider top in arena in WoW.

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That's not true. Have you really played endgame TERA? It requires as much strategy and the action combat elements are tacked on top. I've seen people who were top in Arena in WoW come play TERA and still not be at the top in TERA - although they did fairly well.

 

 

 

There's no auto aim in TERA, it's all manual aiming based on the hitboxes.

 

Have you played LoL? There 2 types of attack, one called normal attack (you drag you cs on your target + pushing the button = hit) and a skillshot (you mark a point (zone) on the ground and in some time your spell goes there but your enemy is moving so he can dodge not by special abbility but by normal reaction and movement) SO Most of Tera's abilities belong to the 1st type. Why does it called skill shot? 

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How many is enough?  There's no such thing as game mechanics that won't frame your skill, because your skill is always operating within the mechanics of the game.

 

I want crowfall to require as much skill as possible, because I want to be challenged by really skilled players.  Your agenda seems a little different than mine though. 

 

Less frames in your action = more skillful PvP. I want it to be real nontarget where I can miss my normal attacks and where skill required for every attack and not just for few "skill shots" like in Tera

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It's not DFO style combat. The devs are not foolish enough to commit suicide that way.

 

Darkfall did not fail because of its combat. It is the height of absurdity to claim this to be the reason. Darkfall's combat is the most impressive aspect of the game. The level of twitch based control they implemented into a gigantic seamless MMORPG server is beyond impressive. 

 

It failed because it was not a sandbox, it was static with nothing to do. It was a glorified arena, nothing more. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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I don't really get action based combat in MMORPGs.  RPG is a role playing game, you're playing a character - you're not the character itself.  Why have attributes/stats if they're all dependent on one or two of your real life stats?  Usually the fun is in developing characters and strategies in how you use them.  Obviously games like SB/WoW/Older MMOs and stuff still have a lot of twitch, but I feel like they're also much more approachable on a strategic level in that they're not pigeonholed into a specific skill (twitch).  There's twitch, there's tactics, there's strategy, there's resource management, there's a level of rocks/paper/scissor where no matter how good you are, certain situations will put you at an inherent disadvantage.

 

That said, it sounds like they really want a tera-like combat, and are greatly influenced by all the modern MMO control schemes.  imo, it is a huge damper on my motivation to care about this game.  There's really nothing wrong with doing an older style if it works well.  I don't know why they're trying so hard to change poorly made socks just for the sake of changing it.  Removing half the permanence for an MMO is not really needed.  Having all pure action based double jump/dodge games are not really needed.  All that was needed was a traditional MMO with an open ended FFA world where you could build cities, empires, and just play as you pleased.  All they needed to do was add more tools and have a well running server to get a lot of people.

 

It also would have been much easier to make, as all of the older concepts are well tested and easy to implement now.  I'm going to be SERIOUSLY surprised if this game can run super large battles, in seamless worlds, smoothly when it's built on unity & is using full aimed combat & voxel tech.  I'd actually probably bet money that the campaigns will end up being much smaller than people think, with a few hundred players or so, and tons of campaigns being generated on a regular basis (like an expanded lobby game).  They're already mentioned things like "werewolf only campaigns" and so on - this only acts to support this notion.  If there was only going to be a few very large campaigns running at a time, with 10s of thousands of players, you would be sure they wouldn't entertain the idea of doing things that prohibit 90% of the playerbase.

Edited by frobobo

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Less frames in your action = more skillful PvP. I want it to be real nontarget where I can miss my normal attacks and where skill required for every attack and not just for few "skill shots" like in Tera

You can miss attacks in tera too?

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Have you played LoL? There 2 types of attack, one called normal attack (you drag you cs on your target + pushing the button = hit) and a skillshot (you mark a point (zone) on the ground and in some time your spell goes there but your enemy is moving so he can dodge not by special abbility but by normal reaction and movement) SO Most of Tera's abilities belong to the 1st type. Why does it called skill shot? 

 

None of TERA's skills automatically hit. There's really no other way to say that. They don't even have hit/accuracy stats in the game, nor do they have evasion/parry/block stats. The idea simply does not exist.

Edited by leiloni

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Have you played LoL? There 2 types of attack, one called normal attack (you drag you cs on your target + pushing the button = hit) and a skillshot (you mark a point (zone) on the ground and in some time your spell goes there but your enemy is moving so he can dodge not by special abbility but by normal reaction and movement) SO Most of Tera's abilities belong to the 1st type. Why does it called skill shot? 

 

What? Ok, I am sure you are a t.r.o.l.l. now.

Edited by reider

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Have you played LoL? There 2 types of attack, one called normal attack (you drag you cs on your target + pushing the button = hit) and a skillshot (you mark a point (zone) on the ground and in some time your spell goes there but your enemy is moving so he can dodge not by special abbility but by normal reaction and movement) SO Most of Tera's abilities belong to the 1st type. Why does it called skill shot? 

 

Which classes/skills are you talking about? Tera isn't 100% skill shot (depending on how you use the term) as there are some soft lock and other mechanics in place (friendly vs enemy skills for example). But the 1st attack you describe sounds like tab combat (WoW), minus the UI of showing your selected target. Tera does not work like that, at least not the majority of the time. Most are your 2nd type. Although, every game handles both in different ways along with other options. GW2/Wildstar both have different approaches as well, while still having some form of "skill shot" just in larger areas (AOE, GTAOE, Cone, etc).

 

Personally, I'm a fan of Smite's skill shot and combat system. Wouldn't want to carbon copy it, but the directional attacks/blocks (walls) are fun, as well as the CC of knock ups/down/back, pulls, etc.

 

Regardless, unless they focus heavily on 1st person combat and or change their stance and go FPS twitchy, doubt it will be what you prefer. No game is perfect or ideal for everyone. Just how it is.

 

If they can take action combat with some form of skill shot, collision, and even FF and make it all work, I'll be happy. They hopefully find a balance as going too far in any direction will alienate a crowd.

 

Nothing against DF, but I'd rather play a FPS where all I focus on is the reticle/target. CF taking ideas from RTS, board, and strategy games has me hoping there will actually be more to combat then who has the fastest wrists and fingers. Coordination and what not should still matter, but not be THE major factor. Again, unless they are going for more 1 vs 1 within 100 vs 100 combat as FPS type games are. You might be on a team, but a lot of it is just you vs someone else in tunnel vision.

Edited by Allein

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Proper game mechanics can't just be planned, they have to be tested and changed accordingly.

 

They already have their foot in their mouth for the content they offered and displayed so far, don't know what youd expect...


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I don't really get action based combat in MMORPGs.  RPG is a role playing game, you're playing a character - you're not the character itself.  Why have attributes/stats if they're all dependent on one or two of your real life stats?  Usually the fun is in developing characters and strategies in how you use them.  Obviously games like SB/WoW/Older MMOs and stuff still have a lot of twitch, but I feel like they're also much more approachable on a strategic level in that they're not pigeonholed into a specific skill (twitch).  There's twitch, there's tactics, there's strategy, there's resource management, there's a level of rocks/paper/scissor where no matter how good you are, certain situations will put you at an inherent disadvantage.

 

That said, it sounds like they really want a tera-like combat, and are greatly influenced by all the modern MMO control schemes.  imo, it is a huge damper on my motivation to care about this game.  There's really nothing wrong with doing an older style if it works well.  I don't know why they're trying so hard to change poorly made socks just for the sake of changing it.  Removing half the permanence for an MMO is not really needed.  Having all pure action based double jump/dodge games are not really needed.  All that was needed was a traditional MMO with an open ended FFA world where you could build cities, empires, and just play as you pleased.  All they needed to do was add more tools and have a well running server to get a lot of people.

 

It also would have been much easier to make, as all of the older concepts are well tested and easy to implement now.  I'm going to be SERIOUSLY surprised if this game can run super large battles, in seamless worlds, smoothly when it's built on unity & is using full aimed combat & voxel tech.  I'd actually probably bet money that the campaigns will end up being much smaller than people think, with a few hundred players or so, and tons of campaigns being generated on a regular basis (like an expanded lobby game).  They're already mentioned things like "werewolf only campaigns" and so on - this only acts to support this notion.  If there was only going to be a few very large campaigns running at a time, with 10s of thousands of players, you would be sure they wouldn't entertain the idea of doing things that prohibit 90% of the playerbase.

QFT.  MMORPG combat has been tested and works very well.  Attempts to change combat fail when you take into account PvP and multiplayer.  Games like Tera and Wildstar failed because they tried to apply FPS combat to MMORPG.  Tera has great "combat" compared to true MMOs when using FPS combat as the benchmark; but Tera has horrible combat compared to true FPS - hence the game failing horribly, everyone who "loves" the combat ends up going to play Halo or CoD.

 

People say FPS style combat like Tera is "skill-based" but so is MMORPG combat; the skill is just different - in FPS it is about twitch-style, high FPS, great latency hitboxes and in MMOs it is about proactive/reactive strategy.  The best Tera combat piece, its hitboxes being very small and attached to the weapon instead of geometric, isn't even being talked about by the devs.

 

I am all for innovation, but using this style of combat is not innovative - it has been tried and failed multiple times.

 

Edit:  This is a post trying to support announcing details about combat before the kickstarter is over.  Combat is the usually most important part of the game and we know very little about it.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I can't disagree enough with ^^^

You are free to do so.  I would encourage you to point to games that you see as successful implementation of that style of combat in large scale fights.  Don't just list "Darkfall" - tell me how exactly the mechanics worked great.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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