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Ace Please Make A Statement Regarding The Combat System.

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QFT.  MMORPG combat has been tested and works very well.  Attempts to change combat fail when you take into account PvP and multiplayer.  Games like Tera and Wildstar failed because they tried to apply FPS combat to MMORPG.  Tera has great "combat" compared to true MMOs when using FPS combat as the benchmark; but Tera has horrible combat compared to true FPS - hence the game failing horribly, everyone who "loves" the combat ends up going to play Halo or CoD.

 

What do you mean by mmorpg combat?  Do you mean the WoW standard?  If you want to compare the 3 games that carved out the genre in the first place (UO, EQ, AC) they all have very different combat from one another.  There is no one mmorpg combat.  Tera and wildstar tried to apply action combat not fps combat, and combat is generally not the reason those games failed.

 

People say FPS style combat like Tera is "skill-based" but so is MMORPG combat; the skill is just different - in FPS it is about twitch-style, high FPS, great latency hitboxes and in MMOs it is about proactive/reactive strategy.  The best Tera combat piece, its hitboxes being very small and attached to the weapon instead of geometric, isn't even being talked about by the devs.

 

FPS is not only about twitch, to play well you need a good brain for strategy as well, it also has plenty of proactive and reactive strategy as we can see in the competitive scene. 

 

I am all for innovation, but using this style of combat is not innovative - it has been tried and failed multiple times.

 

Asheron's Call was quite successful for its time and it had action combat elements.  Tab-target mmorpgs have failed many times.  One combat style or another is not the sole reason games fail. 

 

Edit:  This is a post trying to support announcing details about combat before the kickstarter is over.  Combat is the usually most important part of the game and we know very little about it.

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Darkfall didn't succeed because of it's combat either.

 

Please name one single MMO that has been unarguably successful that used FPS style combat mechanics.

And maybe we can get more nuanced.  Combat within a game should feel the best when engaging in the type of encounter upon which the game is designed.  For Darkfall, 1v1 PvP combat was pretty good.  For Wildstar, 1v1 PvE combat was decent, for Tera it was great.  But for none of those games was the 10v10 - 20v20 PvP great.  I would argue that these types of engagements are the cornerstone to the CF vision as I currently read it.

 

Please don't confuse me for a tab-targeting champion - those games had big flaws in combat too.  Shadowbane's attack rating/defense mechanic was game-defining and I believe combat will benefit greatly from discarding that (as CF seems to have done).  

 

People arguing that combat in tab-target games is non-skillful because you have a pre-determined set of buttons to push are confusing scripted PvE encounters with PvP encounters that have creativity and spontaneity.  Do I think a hybrid could work?  Sure.  Some of my guildmates would vehemently say no, tab-target style combat is tried and true and is essentially never the reason the game fails.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Darkfall didn't succeed because of it's combat either.

 

Please name one single MMO that has been unarguably successful that used FPS style combat mechanics.

None of them use FPS style combat mechanics, what they are using is called action combat.  It's different.

 

The industry is shifting towards hybrids or full on action combat games now as you can see by most of the big games in development. 

 

Blade and Soul and Guild Wars 2 are both hybrid combat games that have done very well. 

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None of them use FPS style combat mechanics, what they are using is called action combat.  It's different.

 

The industry is shifting towards hybrids or full on action combat games now as you can see by most of the big games in development. 

 

Blade and Soul and Guild Wars 2 are both hybrid combat games that have done very well. 

Can I ask you what your opinion is between hybrids that fail and hybrids that succeed?  What are the important aspects of hybridization?

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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None of them use FPS style combat mechanics, what they are using is called action combat.  It's different.

 

The industry is shifting towards hybrids or full on action combat games now as you can see by most of the big games in development. 

 

Blade and Soul and Guild Wars 2 are both hybrid combat games that have done very well. 

This is why I am suprised they don't lean towards GW2, it's proven to be pretty good, and still to this day has a lot of people playing who enjoy the combat in GW2. It's not so niche that it doesn't automatically rule out a certain player for the most part. 

 

 

Anyway this is what they have in the FAQ now ... they have added some to it since they originally put it in there.

 

4. How will combat “feel” in Crowfall?

 

In deciding what we want combat to “look and feel like,” we are drawing a lot of our inspiration from other recent MMOs. We love the idea of action-combat – but we have to make sure the game doesn’t get too “twitchy” (i.e. require lightning fast reflexes or too much button-mashing).

Combat has certain elements that are similar to Wildstar (our movement includes things sprints, dashes, and double jumps) and other elements that are similar to TERA (combo attacks that have short “locked” animation sequences – chains which you can opt to continue or break, for a cost.)

The result – when combined with our voxel terrain and physics based movement systems – is combat sequences that looks more fluid, feel more visceral and require more tactical thinking.

 

The locked animation sequences is what has me personally on the waiting side of the fence for now.

Edited by sarin

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Can I ask you what your opinion is between hybrids that fail and hybrids that succeed?  What are the important aspects of hybridization?

It's generally not the combat that is forcing hybrids or full on action combat mmorpgs to fail.  It's flaws within other aspects of the game design.

 

You can already see action combat elements becoming hugely popular in the east and in the west you have always had elements of it in popular console games and now shifting into mobas and mmorpgs. 

 

You say tab-target is tried and true but so many mmorpgs have failed in the last 10 years because they try to use the same outdated systems, including tab-target which bores many gamers to death now.

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This is why I am suprised they don't lean towards GW2, it's proven to be pretty good, and still to this day has a lot of people playing who enjoy the combat in GW2. It's not so niche that it doesn't automatically rule out a certain player for the most part. 

 

 

Anyway this is what they have in the FAQ now ... they have added some to it since they originally put it in there.

 

4. How will combat “feel” in Crowfall?

 

In deciding what we want combat to “look and feel like,” we are drawing a lot of our inspiration from other recent MMOs. We love the idea of action-combat – but we have to make sure the game doesn’t get too “twitchy” (i.e. require lightning fast reflexes or too much button-mashing).

Combat has certain elements that are similar to Wildstar (our movement includes things sprints, dashes, and double jumps) and other elements that are similar to TERA (combo attacks that have short “locked” animation sequences – chains which you can opt to continue or break, for a cost.)

The result – when combined with our voxel terrain and physics based movement systems – is combat sequences that looks more fluid, feel more visceral and require more tactical thinking.

I'd consider GW2 to have many elements that fall in between wildstar and tera as far as combat goes so I wouldn't be too surprised if some of it feels familiar to gw2.  All of these hybrids and full action combat games share some similar properties so something inbetween them is always going to feel somewhat familiar to people on both ends of the spectrum. 

 

I do think they should lean away from telegraphs though, it's such a convenience based feature.

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It's generally not the combat that is forcing hybrids or full on action combat mmorpgs to fail.  It's flaws within other aspects of the game design.

 

You can already see action combat elements becoming hugely popular in the east and in the west you have always had elements of it in popular console games and now shifting into mobas and mmorpgs. 

 

You say tab-target is tried and true but so many mmorpgs have failed in the last 10 years because they try to use the same outdated systems, including tab-target which bores many gamers to death now.

I can understand the argument.  I would say that many tab-targeted mmorpgs have failed because of reasons that are not combat.  If the failed games make an essentially carbon-copy of an entire existing game, I can't agree with your assessment that tab-targeting is a primary cause.  I point to games with tab-targeting that are the most popular in the genre (genre very broad here - I don't think WoW is an MMORPG anymore).

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I'd consider GW2 to have many elements that fall in between wildstar and tera as far as combat goes so I wouldn't be too surprised if some of it feels familiar to gw2.  All of these hybrids and full action combat games share some similar properties so something inbetween them is always going to feel somewhat familiar to people on both ends of the spectrum. 

 

I do think they should lean away from telegraphs though, it's such a convenience based feature.

Yes, no telegraphs for sure.  GW2 minimal combat healing was not good.  I was glad to see devs comment early on that they know it failed in GW2.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I can understand the argument.  I would say that many tab-targeted mmorpgs have failed because of reasons that are not combat.  If the failed games make an essentially carbon-copy of an entire existing game, I can't agree with your assessment that tab-targeting is a primary cause.  I point to games with tab-targeting that are the most popular in the genre (genre very broad here - I don't think WoW is an MMORPG anymore).

Well from my personal experience some to many gamers, myself and my friends included, who mostly all have played at a top level in mmorpgs have gotten sick of tab-target specifically.  It has come to the point where we feel so limited by the system that we can no longer enjoy the combat in it.

 

Which games are the most popular in the genre?  GW2 is a hybrid it is not fully tab-target.  Blade and soul hit 1.5million concurrent users in china and it is a hybrid.

 

Everyone has their own preferences but for me when I log into a tab-target mmorpg it just automatically leaves me with a feeling of being outdated and restrictive. 

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Well from my personal experience some to many gamers, myself and my friends included, who mostly all have played at a top level in mmorpgs have gotten sick of tab-target specifically.  It has come to the point where we feel so limited by the system that we can no longer enjoy the combat in it.

 

Which games are the most popular in the genre?  GW2 is a hybrid it is not fully tab-target.  Blade and soul hit 1.5million concurrent users in china and it is a hybrid.

 

Everyone has their own preferences but for me when I log into a tab-target mmorpg it just automatically leaves me with a feeling of being outdated and restrictive. 

Fair.  I'd love to see the hybridization center on voxel and physics in particular.  With those two things, it is impossible to do "traditional" tab-targeting in the outdated sense (as you've put it).  I don't think devs are going to go tab-targeting, but I hope that a discussion of the relative merits of such a system provide some insight into why action combat tends to fail in large scale PvP.

 

I am personally hopeful they can make it work, but some of my guildmates are very skeptical and with good reason, I think.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I always love linking this video to show what GW2 could/would be like if you get rid of the Tab Target, the mod shown here still allows soft target, but that's something that could be taken out as well. I just love personally how it works for the most part in this video.

 

i am strictly talking about the general combat here, not added layers of gw2 system like boons, healing, etc etc

 

For those who haven't watched it before,  check it out.  I have linked it several times here so some, or, a lot of you might already have seen it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g2yOAVEKec

Edited by sarin

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Fair.  I'd love to see the hybridization center on voxel and physics in particular.  With those two things, it is impossible to do "traditional" tab-targeting in the outdated sense (as you've put it).  I don't think devs are going to go tab-targeting, but I hope that a discussion of the relative merits of such a system provide some insight into why action combat tends to fail in large scale PvP.

 

I am personally hopeful they can make it work, but some of my guildmates are very skeptical and with good reason, I think.

Most mmorpgs have failed in large scale pvp in general, usually for technical reasons outside of the combat.  I don't think action combat has proven to be flawed for large scale pvp.  It did not make darkfall worse, it does not make the hybrids worse, and people generally seem to be enjoying the large scale pvp in black desert online so far. 

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Darkfall didn't succeed because of it's combat either.

 

Please name one single MMO that has been unarguably successful that used FPS style combat mechanics.

Firefall? I can't say I was impressed with how they flip flopped on their vision, but the combat is great. And quite honestly, there are not many out there to even compare to. There are plenty of failures on all ends of the spectrum in the MMO industry. Tab targeting MMO's have their huge slew of failures as well. Not to mention, the measurement of success is what exactly? Still have the lights on?

 

I look at games like Smite for instance. You have to aim all your attacks in that game, though hit boxes are large boxes, with no headshots and what not. But honestly, playing games like H1Z1 or Rust, I think it is a lot more fun arcing your arrows 200 meters and hitting someone. These projectile based physics could also make some pretty cool scenarios, like blotting out the sun with an arrow volley from many players.

 

There are titles like the new Warhammer 40k MMO, that is currently in development (which is also a very small team, like ACE). They say their tech could support thousands of players, in a third person shooter like environment. Many of the games that I am talking about don't compare at all to real twitch shooters, like Quake or Counter-Strike. If players are moving at normal speeds and what not, I don't think it will be as bad as many are making it sound. /shrug

Edited by MattVid

Vidrak - Member of


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And maybe we can get more nuanced.  Combat within a game should feel the best when engaging in the type of encounter upon which the game is designed.  For Darkfall, 1v1 PvP combat was pretty good.  For Wildstar, 1v1 PvE combat was decent, for Tera it was great.  But for none of those games was the 10v10 - 20v20 PvP great.  I would argue that these types of engagements are the cornerstone to the CF vision as I currently read it.

 

Please don't confuse me for a tab-targeting champion - those games had big flaws in combat too.  Shadowbane's attack rating/defense mechanic was game-defining and I believe combat will benefit greatly from discarding that (as CF seems to have done).  

 

People arguing that combat in tab-target games is non-skillful because you have a pre-determined set of buttons to push are confusing scripted PvE encounters with PvP encounters that have creativity and spontaneity.  Do I think a hybrid could work?  Sure.  Some of my guildmates would vehemently say no, tab-target style combat is tried and true and is essentially never the reason the game fails.

 

100vs100 in Darkfall was absolutely epic. I don't know what game you played but the combat in DF was by far the best part. The reason it failed, again, is that Darkfall essentially had nothing else to it besides combat, which made it bland and stale. That, as well as a disastrous launch didn't help. 

 

There is still in tab-target games, but they are far more reliant on character stats which isn't ideal. Character stats should matter, but real life skill is more impactful and makes it feel more like you are the one in the world actively engaging with it. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Less frames in your action = more skillful PvP. I want it to be real nontarget where I can miss my normal attacks and where skill required for every attack and not just for few "skill shots" like in Tera

 

Like I said, nothing is automatically aimed in TERA. Every single skill requires the player to aim it properly or they will miss. I don't care if you don't like the combat, but you need to understand the facts about how it functions.

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Do we really have people here that are still holding out for the hopes the combat is going to be like Darkfall? Not going to happen from what they have said on what they are aiming for.

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Do we really have people here that are still holding out for the hopes the combat is going to be like Darkfall? Not going to happen from what they have said on what they are aiming for.

 

Darkfall combat has gotten a little subjective. I think what the people want, what they liked from darkfall, is a tps projectile system. We want to be able to aim in 3 dimensions and for abilities to fly farther then 30 meters. I don't think it's completely out of the question yet. 

 

I want it. I don't want combat to be limited to a small space and want to be able to shoot down from walls. It sucks when all you can do from walls is look.

Edited by Tyrogon

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