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Ace Please Make A Statement Regarding The Combat System.

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Darkfall did not fail because of its combat. It is the height of absurdity to claim this to be the reason. Darkfall's combat is the most impressive aspect of the game. The level of twitch based control they implemented into a gigantic seamless MMORPG server is beyond impressive. 

 

It failed because it was not a sandbox, it was static with nothing to do. It was a glorified arena, nothing more. 

 

To be honest I was not a fan of the combat.

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Why can't they use the Skyrim combat which require skills, which have the best options of both worlds of mmos and FPS combat.

Why can't we have first person view in CF?

I think h1z1 has a great combat system; it's use both guns and arrows which require aim and skills.

Edited by Mythx

MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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 Usually the fun is in developing characters and strategies in how you use them.  Obviously games like SB/WoW/Older MMOs and stuff still have a lot of twitch, but I feel like they're also much more approachable on a strategic level in that they're not pigeonholed into a specific skill (twitch).  There's twitch, there's tactics, there's strategy, there's resource management, there's a level of rocks/paper/scissor where no matter how good you are, certain situations will put you at an inherent disadvantage.

 

 There's really nothing wrong with doing an older style if it works well. 

 

A few thoughts:

 

 - WoW and twitch in the same sentence? And what other older tab target MMO's are you trying to say have twitch? There's by definition no twitch in tab target. You get your target and press buttons. If you're trying to say it requires (not really requires, but benefits from) quick reactions, then sure, but so do action combat games and they tend to have more of it.

 

 - Any good action combat game has all of those elements - strategy, tactics, resource management, along with the need to aim, manually block/dodge, etc.

 

 - The rock/paper/scissors is what many players hate. Nobody wants to be the better player and have something entirely out of their control determine the outcome. That's why many prefer action combat, because it gives you a level of control over what's going on that's very satisfying. That and the fact that it's much more freeing and immersive when you don't have to hooligan around with the damn UI and can just aim and go, and you are also moving around much more, and in a meaningful way.

 

 - Older styles do not work well lol. That's why so many have moved away from them.

 

Edit: No fun forum filter words for hooligan? Call me disappointed. ;(

Edited by leiloni

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To be honest I was not a fan of the combat.

 

And here is why this argument is going no where. Great contribution!

 

The fact you didn't like something isn't important, it's why you didn't like it. That is what can help this.

 

Was it too hard to aim abilities? did you not like the abilities available? did combat feel too fast? are you not used to aiming? did you have a problem with some of the controls? did you not like the game and decide you don't like the combat system either?

 

This is what makes the conversation so annoying. We have some people who fear the system because they aren't good at it. People who aren't familiar with the system and are acting defensive. We even have people who aren't familiar with the system but are asking for systems that are very similar. Even desires between people who want the same system differ. 

 

Seriously, what should the combat system allow the players to do. Should the players be able to release spells and arrows from the top of walls? Should players be able to engage each other from long distances? should players be able to get in the way of abilities and their intended targets? what should combat look/feel like?

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Why can't everybody, find and participate in a thread that isn't an ignorant attention whine?

 

I know that everybody feels the need to correct falsehoods, but in the meantime, the forums are blighted with one narrow minded presumptuous thread after the next.

 

"Must be like DF or FPS, must not be like WS, can't do Tera, can, can't, must, only"... Stop it!

 

Try to be more constructive. Don't demand a specific way and pretend like doing or not doing a specific thing is the only way you'll accept the game. No matter what designs they choose, it will please some and disappoint others, but anyone who will only accept one way is just being petty and childish.

 

ACE please DON'T entertain these petty discussions and engage a proper, respectful or intelligent discussion of the mechanics, options, and context desired for the game.

 

K THX BAI :]

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Wow, this has ranged rather far afield, hasn't it? A simple request for something that isn't likely to come has turned into.... this.

 

Yuck.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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And here is why this argument is going no where. Great contribution!

 

The fact you didn't like something isn't important, it's why you didn't like it. That is what can help this.

 

 

It's important because the guy I quoted said combat is not why it failed, and I am disagreeing. I don't need to dissect DF combat to say it was not everyone's favorite. Some liked it, some didn't, but it was not some gem like many are making it out to be. 

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A few thoughts:

 

 - WoW and twitch in the same sentence? And what other older tab target MMO's are you trying to say have twitch? There's by definition no twitch in tab target. You get your target and press buttons. If you're trying to say it requires (not really requires, but benefits from) quick reactions, then sure, but so do action combat games and they tend to have more of it.

 

 - Any good action combat game has all of those elements - strategy, tactics, resource management, along with the need to aim, manually block/dodge, etc.

 

 - The rock/paper/scissors is what many players hate. Nobody wants to be the better player and have something entirely out of their control determine the outcome. That's why many prefer action combat, because it gives you a level of control over what's going on that's very satisfying. That and the fact that it's much more freeing and immersive when you don't have to hooligan around with the damn UI and can just aim and go, and you are also moving around much more, and in a meaningful way.

 

 - Older styles do not work well lol. That's why so many have moved away from them.

 

Edit: No fun forum filter words for hooligan? Call me disappointed. ;(

I don't agree here, wow and other tab-targets had twitch.  There is twitch in even something basic like spinning 180 as you ice or take a hunter shot on someone then turning again to continue kiting.  There's twitch in interrupting .5 sec cast time abilities. 

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Wow, this has ranged rather far afield, hasn't it? A simple request for something that isn't likely to come has turned into.... this.

 

Yuck.

A request for something that's already been done, the folly >.>

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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It's important because the guy I quoted said combat is not why it failed, and I am disagreeing. I don't need to dissect DF combat to say it was not everyone's favorite. Some liked it, some didn't, but it was not some gem like many are making it out to be. 

 

But why you didn't like something is why it wasn't your gem. We don't know if you were just bad at it or you actually have a legitimate reason for not liking it. We all have reasons for why we like or dislike something. Sometimes it can be hard to figure out or we don't want to admit to it but there is a reason.

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Less frames in your action = more skillful PvP. I want it to be real nontarget where I can miss my normal attacks and where skill required for every attack and not just for few "skill shots" like in Tera

Did you even play Tera?? Auto attacks had to be aimed..


TSGH

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Did they play tera as much as they played WoW to practice?  Did tera have enough players and a pvp system to encourage people to push it to the very limits?  These all factor in to how good a player might get.  Also what do you consider top in arena in WoW.

WoW needs a different type of skill, the skill where you needed to know when to pop the right cool down and burst etc.

I believe the OP was talking about hitting or aiming your abilities, and the chance to miss making it more "skillful" in a different aspect


TSGH

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Wow, there are a ton of misconceptions going on in this thread, not least of which are OP's. 

 

The problem for me that Tera's dev said the same.. But it is not a real non-target

It IS a non-target.  There are only at best 10 or 12 offensive abilities that are lock-on skills across 4 classes compared to 9 that consist of over 100 skills in the game.

 

 

Tera is not a skillful combat system. Even WoW is much more skillful. But I still want to hear an official statement with their vision of the combat. The thing in Tera system which is weird is "no prediction", shoot while holding crosshair on your enemy = hit. Range defined by the game mechanics so you can't hit an enemy from 51 meter if the maximum range is 50. Why so?

Tera is absolutely a skillful combat system and miles beyond more skillful than WoW or any other tab target.  It is arguably the MOST personal skill reliant MMO on the market today.  You also sounds like you're more upset at the Archer class than the combat itself and the game isn't balanced around 50 meter ranged skills so you dislike it because you don't understand why.  There are plenty of "prediction" skills, the combat system itself is rather reliant on intelligent prediction of a target's next move.

 

He isn't entirely incorrect.  Tera required slightly more mechanics (a step in the right direction) but WoW had much more depth to the strategy while still having pretty important emphasis on movement, camera control and positioning.

You cannot be serious.  Tab target games cap your skill, eventually it's all RNG and composition and gear.  Every bit of strategy and tactic in a game like WoW applies to Tera in the same ways yet Tera brings entirely new depth to it and a vastly increased skill ceiling.  There is literally nothing more "skill" reliant in WoW than in Tera.  The combat systems are of such a night and day difference it'd be like comparing a 2D shooter to a 3d first person.

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Have to split post due to quote cap.

 

I have recently started playing Tera, and maybe I just don't have it setup right, but I don't like the character movement at all. When you press A or D, your character doesn't strafe, it turns in that direction and then attacks. It feels incredibly clunky and bad. Where you are aiming isn't where you are attacking.

 

As far as this combat system, I don't really know. But I definitely want to have better control of my character. I would definitely prefer a more twitch based system, but can deal with more "tab target like" systems if that is what they are planning on. I mean, something like Firefall or even Darkfall would be great, actual projectiles and aiming. Though I don't mind the combat systems in Wildstar or GW2 either.

Couple reasons you could be experiencing what you are.  One is that combo attacks always follow character facing.  There is only one other ability I can think of off hand, the lancer's whallop, that isn't camera direction.  You also could have a controller or somehow have activated controller mechanics which includes an option to direct attacks related to character- rather than camera-facing.  And believe me, it's isn't twitch heavy to the point of a FPS, but depending on the class there are some real twitch moments you'll have in Tera.

 

I am really sorry but it seems you never played Arena in WoW. Tera is not skill shots, since no prediction, it has some kind of system to make handless thinking they are doing skillshots

Wow isn't a skillshot game.  It's a tab target.  You tab over to your intended target and hit a button.  So long as you're facing and within skill range it fires off.  What few "skillshot" abilities it has added to its very aged infrastructure are few and limited.  Tera, my contrast, if you're going to use that terminology, is nothing BUT skill shots because even the minimally few lock-on attacks can be iframed or blocked.

 

 

 


QFT.  MMORPG combat has been tested and works very well.  Attempts to change combat fail when you take into account PvP and multiplayer.  Games like Tera and Wildstar failed because they tried to apply FPS combat to MMORPG.  Tera has great "combat" compared to true MMOs when using FPS combat as the benchmark; but Tera has horrible combat compared to true FPS - hence the game failing horribly, everyone who "loves" the combat ends up going to play Halo or CoD.

 

People say FPS style combat like Tera is "skill-based" but so is MMORPG combat; the skill is just different - in FPS it is about twitch-style, high FPS, great latency hitboxes and in MMOs it is about proactive/reactive strategy.  The best Tera combat piece, its hitboxes being very small and attached to the weapon instead of geometric, isn't even being talked about by the devs.

 

I am all for innovation, but using this style of combat is not innovative - it has been tried and failed multiple times.

 

Edit:  This is a post trying to support announcing details about combat before the kickstarter is over.  Combat is the usually most important part of the game and we know very little about it.

WOAH NOW.  Tera is a success.  Was top 10 in 2013 MMORPG profits.  Its combat is also its SOLE REASON for its success.  It otherwise has some pretty terrible optimization, is rather featureless still, and constantly suffers from limited (but growing) content.  In truth it'd be 2 servers or dead if not for its combat system which by MMO terms is highly innovative (and by all rights should be dead by virtue of NCSoft winning the lawsuit).  It should have launched with much of what it has today, but trust me, it's far from a failure, its pop has been icnredibly stable across its 6 or 7 servers.

 

I don't udnerstand why you call it "FPS" combat when it's third person and not a shooter, it's action combat, meaning non-tab target.  It's skill absed meaning you must aim your attacks, it's all timing and precision.  The rest of your concern I don't even understand.  This style has NOT been tried in any recent memory (maybe Age of Conan but I never played) and it was a massive success by any reasonable account.  If Tera wasn't otherwise riddled with bad design it'd have 15+ full servers or even more just in NA.  If it wasn't hugely handicapped by NCSoft's lawsuit it'd have tons more content and play more optimally than it does.  Despite everything that should have killed Tera it's alive and well because the combat is so damn good and there is still practically nothing out there with combat that's truly action oriented or anywhere compatible it will remain strong.  Black Desert will likely hit it hard, though, but we'll see.

 

People arguing that combat in tab-target games is non-skillful because you have a pre-determined set of buttons to push are confusing scripted PvE encounters with PvP encounters that have creativity and spontaneity.  Do I think a hybrid could work?  Sure.  Some of my guildmates would vehemently say no, tab-target style combat is tried and true and is essentially never the reason the game fails.

I'd argue tab target is a huuuuge reason many games have failed.  All they did was imitate the WoW model, add a few things that were more gimmick than feature.  When you can just play WoW which has 12 years of content or a new game that's just a different coat of paint, what would you actually prefer playing?  If Rift had Tera's combat, I'd still play it.  If SW:TOR had Tera's combat, I'd still play it (holy hell now THAT would have been a WoW killing game).  Even if ArcheAge had Tera's combat I might still suffer its horrible and flawed core features and designs.  Champions Online... The Secret World... all I'd play if they had Tera combat because they all inherently are better designed or have more than just combat going for it.  Lack of innovation and "It just feels like WoW' are the key reasons MMOs fail and aren't as successful as they should be and having WoW's combat system is a massive part of that.

 

I look at games like Smite for instance. You have to aim all your attacks in that game, though hit boxes are large boxes, with no headshots and what not. But honestly, playing games like H1Z1 or Rust, I think it is a lot more fun arcing your arrows 200 meters and hitting someone. These projectile based physics could also make some pretty cool scenarios, like blotting out the sun with an arrow volley from many players.

Judging by the pre-alpha they seem to want to do a Wildstar/Tera mix.  Pure tera style combat would not fit for projectile/physics based, let alone 50m+ potential.  They'll need to make it their own and I do hope that something akin to this can happen.  I just hope they don't make it a targetless wildstar which would just be a floppy pile of ice skating crap. They'll hopefully borrow the best of both worlds which would include animation locking, an absolute must if you're going action combat I'd argue.

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On the topic of 50 meter (or even honestly 30-40m) skills, am I the only one that thinks ranged classes with shorter range are harder to play than the dude/dudette who can just safely stand in the back and pew pew all day? I hope that we don't have super long range in this game. 

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On the topic of 50 meter (or even honestly 30-40m) skills, am I the only one that thinks ranged classes with shorter range are harder to play than the dude/dudette who can just safely stand in the back and pew pew all day? I hope that we don't have super long range in this game. 

 

Maybe a little more fun to play but I wouldn't say harder. If anything they are the easiest to play because they usually have the tools to kite. They can kite melee and destroy there longer range counter parts once the get in range.

 

It's easy to los and dodge long range attacks. Once you close the gap, they are easy to kill.

 

Long range is isn't hard to deal with and it adds extra flavor to the battlefield. It would be pretty sad if all sieges were just mosh pits at wall choke points. 

Edited by Tyrogon

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I think there needs to be caution in how the combat for Crowfall is worded, because the words "FPS", "hardcore" or "competitive" will confuse the gamers who flock here for that type of game play, and they will not understand that it can't be any of those things because not everyone is a teenager with amazing hand eye coordination, or from North America with good ping.

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I think there needs to be caution in how the combat for Crowfall is worded, because the words "FPS", "hardcore" or "competitive" will confuse the gamers who flock here for that type of game play, and they will not understand that it can't be any of those things because not everyone is a teenager with amazing hand eye coordination, or from North America with good ping.

 

the FPS title should definitely not be anywhere near this game. I would rather just label it a strategic action mmorpg. Not label it hardcore, nor label it competitive.

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Please provide more information on combat system, just "action based" is not enough and it is crucial point for many backers/possible backers.

 

Thanks in advance. 

 

P.s. I hope to see that info before the KS ends.

There is combat.  Done. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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They've said so already, read the dev tracker. But TERA was definitely non-target and one of the best combat of any game. You clearly didn't play it very much if you think it was fake non-targeting. There was nothing fake about it, it was completely non-targeted.

 

Having played tera, I can honestly say BDO > Tera.

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