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Buyer's Remorse, Or Why Should I Pay?


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HI All, 

 

I've been excited about this project from the beginning, I've been in these forums since day 1, and I was thrilled to contribute to the kickstarter as soon as it opened. However, over the past several days I've wondered why I felt the need to contribute. I've begun to think this game is for the smallest faction of gamers, the ones who hold themselves superior to "casual" gamers, and I've started to wonder if there is a place in the community itself for casual gamers. So, why should I and others like me give money? 

 

I've heard people like me, gamers with money to burn, called "whales" by the sort of gamers for whom Crowfall is supposedly being made. "Whales" are people who pay for subs, cash shop items, etc., and generally keep games afloat in operating monies. "Whales" are also very often scorned as "casual" gamers, and maligned as "care bears" by those who define themselves as "hardcore" gamers. Further, it's these casual gamers who are often targeted for quick and frequent attacks in open pvp games; we're called "sheep", I believe. 

 

So, why should I give money? Why should I strive to help support a game that is meant for gamers who openly disdain the casual gamer, knowing that they are the players who will benefit from my "whale" financial contributions, and then knowing that they deliberately seek out casual gamers such as myself as targets in-game? 

 

I want to play Crowfall, but the more I read in the forums, the less I like the idea of helping paying for some of these players' dream game. 

 

If someone with a shred of politeness and common courtesy would share some perspective, I'd appreciate it much. 

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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The way I look at it is I am not just supporting a game that, based on everything I can find, will appeal to my interests. But I am also supporting the idea that innovation can be funded this way, and

Well, Iridian, I'd say the best reason is because we don't know yet. In your OP, you say "by the sort of gamers for whom Crowfall is supposedly being made". But who has told you the game is being made

If you are put off to a game by reading its forums...that would probably be every MMO out there.   Forums are full of trolls, boasters, whiners, complainers and generally people you would want to pa

Honestly if other players ruin your experience so easily this may not be a game doe you. If you want to play then contribute and if you don't...well don't.

Edited by checkyotrack

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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I'm sure other campaigns with certain rulesets will be suitable for lots of different kinds of people, but I think PvP will always be a big factor so it might still not be for everyone. I think campaign rulesets are key here, but it still might not be for you. Just pull your pledge.

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Look, I'm thoroughly bored with the sorts of replies above. 

 

I want an actual, thoughtful, reply to my question. 

Edited by iridianshadowweaver

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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Hey Iridian,

 

For every vocal forum user that disrespects casuals there are 3 non-vocal players who respect casual and know what those types of players bring to the table.  I'm pretty heavy into the PvP but I know a lot of my fellow gamers aren't but they may be really into crafting.  I have no problem looking out for those people in game knowing they will be making some of the best gear I can get and in return making my job of looking out for them a lot easier.

 

I know how you feel.  I have seen a lot of rude people lately on these forums being very disrespectful when someone is simply asking a question.  Unfortunately this is a side effect with the anonymity of the internet.

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Don't read the forums. Never believe what you read.

 

The terms 'Casual' and 'Hardcore' are opinionated titles. My hardcore could be more or less than your hardcore.

 

 

 

In short, don't view the forums. Only follow what the devs say.

 

 

That said, this game is niche in the fact that is a full loot pvp game with sandbox rule sets that create immersive and co-operative gameplay. When they say "This game is not for everyone" I assume that's what they mean by it. Not everyone will 'enjoy' the game. And that's OK. They can simply move along.

 

 

That's the thing with the MMO crowd. We are always looking for the next big thing.

 

Oh and btw. When you backed on KS you weren't charged any money yet. Its not set in stone. You can simply log in to your KS and cancel. (As long as its not within the last 24hrs of the campaign.)

 

So if you feel Crowfall isn't the MMO for you, simply cancel.

[TB] The Balance
Nation of Equilibrium

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There's nothing wrong with supporting, or not supporting, a game. If you feel as though you'll play the game, and the vision is in line with your own, support it. If not, don't. Casual and hardcore is irrelevant as far as pledges go IMO.

 

EDIT: If every casual player felt as you, and abandoned CF, it would only be a game for hardcore players. Will there be a place for people like you, like me, like countless other casuals? I feel there will be, but it's ultimately up to the individual to find it.

Edited by caledon
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The way I look at it is I am not just supporting a game that, based on everything I can find, will appeal to my interests. But I am also supporting the idea that innovation can be funded this way, and in fact should be funded this way.

 

I work in the industry (I'm sure this shocks exactly zero people at this point) and I am really fed up with 'interactive entertainment' being solely derived by heuristics algorithms driven by market research based on uptake curves and shelf retention.

 

When you determine everyone's fun by spreadsheet, you get "Madden NFL 15"... 15! Fifteen iterations of the same thing being churned out over and over. You get "Yet Another War Simulator" which is exactly like the last two dozen shooters, just with some new engine tricks to drive hardware sales.

 

There is no innovation in the upper echelons of Interactive Entertainment anymore. Sure, the independants are mixing it up on Steam - and Steam as a platform is amazing for that, but the end result of an Indie success is the big guys buying them out and wrecking the game for 'market appeal' derived from some algebra, or the big guys copying it wholesale and wrecking the game for 'market appeal' derived from some algebra.

 

ACE is a f*ckton of industry talent who have all decided to innovate, versus iterate - that gets my money.

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Forget it.

Edited by checkyotrack

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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Well, Iridian, I'd say the best reason is because we don't know yet. In your OP, you say "by the sort of gamers for whom Crowfall is supposedly being made". But who has told you the game is being made for them, other than them? I've seen plenty of evidence to say that they are wrong.

 

I do think a lot of the most... self-loved people on here will be disappointed and won't end up joining us in game. I believe they are so sure this will be the game they have been waiting for that they are ignoring anything that suggests otherwise. I think it will lean that way, but I don't think it will be quite as... extreme as some believe.

 

Also, always remember, the forums are used by about 20% of a game's fans. So if you see 60% of the people on here taking one opinion, that is only 60% of 20%.

 

My best advice, stick around, see what shakes out.

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I have an alarm set on my phone for March 25th at 4:45 pm. 

 

That's my decision moment about whether I'll be keeping my KS pledge in or pulling my support and participation in CF.

 

I posted elsewhere about how the game structure seems to funnel players into a very narrow mindset about what is "fun" in a game and does not allow much free thought or alternative ways to enjoy the game.  It's odd given the focus in the promotion items on how CF is a player driven game.   The win at all costs or you're punished and here's your definition of win mindset required to enjoy CF as presented so far is very, very specific.  It can be tough to find common ground among the players, especially here on the boards.  

 

There are still huge chunks of info missing about the game.  The ones with the biggest impact for me are info about EK and much more detail about the crafting system.  If that info comes out and it turns out that there's no room for the game for me to have any fun I'll pull out then.  If info does not come out by the time the alarm goes off on my phone, I'll pull out then.

But if more info comes out and it turns out that there is a place for me in this game than I'll shout it from the rooftops.  I'll be in 100% regardless of how many idjuts are on these boards because the reason I'll back CF is because I want them to build a game that I will love.  That I will make my home, that I will make great friends in, and I don't care if that also happens to build a game that the idjuts love as well.  They can bask in the glory of CF too - it won't change my enjoyment of the game one bit.

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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Iridian, no one can answer that question except you. You could have asked the General Forum "Why do I like butterflies?". Why kind of answer do you honestly expect? You already knew what they're going to say before you hit Post.

 

This is a forum about a game that is in PRE-Alpha and only just recently officially announced itself unto the world. You've received tidbits of information here and there. You've clung onto that druid avatar since the first time I took notice of your posts. You, for a reason unknown to no one but you, said "I've been excited about this project from the beginning, I've been in these forums since day 1, and I was thrilled to contribute to the kickstarter as soon as it opened." Take some time, ignore everything else, and reflect on this.

 

You've began to think this game is for the smallest faction of gamers. I'd believe you've come to this, almost assuredly, false presumption based on the remarks of remorseless forum elitists. They are indeed a small faction of gamers. They hail from various places, one being JTodds previous game, Shadowbane. A place which originated Crowfalls initial motto, Play To Crush. They take this way of life quite literally whether they're playing in game or the forum game. Don't let their false threats dissuade you from your original intent. Most of them are bad anyways so you shouldn't have much to worry about.

 

 

Play because you want to. Contribute, if you feel the cause is just to you. Help fund my dream game, if you want to. Love butterflies, always.

 

 

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i'll take a swing here...

 

play because what you know about the Game interests you....or not

 

contribute because you want to be a part of said Game, or not....

 

these are things only you can decide for yourself, and allowing others to influence your decision is what diminishes your personal Opinion...not anything anyone else can say or type

 

in the other aspects of your Life, do you let the opinions of others unduly influence your decisions, or do you make the judgement that fits based on your own observations and criteria?

 

this whole "casual" and "hardcore" thing is ridiculous, imo...and anyone from EITHER playstyle getting bent out of shape due to the opposing style advocates is taking these pixels far too seriously, imo

 

in the end, it comes down to your own preferences, if you feel like being a part of CF, do what works for you, and proudly wave a digitus impudicus at those who denigrate...if you are not comfortable in that mode, pull your pledge....and then when the Game comes out, if you are curious...give it a try

 

i just can't seem to grasp what it is you are looking for here, other than wanting everyone to "play nice" with each other.....and do trust me on this...these forums have been very "nice" when compared to the places certain Factions come from....even to many other competitive Game forums

 

it's the Competitive part that drives things like what you are talking about....if being competitive is not for you, then find a Game that fits...

 

this is me, as a Player talking....trying to be as reasonable as i can....i do hope you decide to stay and give it a try

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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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Even hardcore players call other hardcore players for carebears, you shouldnt worry too much about it :)

And like others have said, you choose if you feel like this is a game you want to contribute to.

The community has alot of different people, both in the "carebear" crowd, and the "hardcore" crowd, so that shouldnt be a reason to not plegde if you really like the idea and want to help make the game a reality.

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HI All, 

 

I've been excited about this project from the beginning, I've been in these forums since day 1, and I was thrilled to contribute to the kickstarter as soon as it opened. However, over the past several days I've wondered why I felt the need to contribute. I've begun to think this game is for the smallest faction of gamers, the ones who hold themselves superior to "casual" gamers, and I've started to wonder if there is a place in the community itself for casual gamers. So, why should I and others like me give money? 

 

I've heard people like me, gamers with money to burn, called "whales" by the sort of gamers for whom Crowfall is supposedly being made. "Whales" are people who pay for subs, cash shop items, etc., and generally keep games afloat in operating monies. "Whales" are also very often scorned as "casual" gamers, and maligned as "care bears" by those who define themselves as "hardcore" gamers. Further, it's these casual gamers who are often targeted for quick and frequent attacks in open pvp games; we're called "sheep", I believe.

 

Half a decade ago a game came out that marketed it's self almost solely to the 'hardcore' gamer, the guy that wanted a challenge in every facet of his gaming. Their developers found out pretty quickly that the 'casual' gamer was actually necessary because in most MMO's while the hardcore guy was logging in X hours a week to kill Y boss for Z amazing gear before logging off for a week again, the casuals filled in the blanks, gathering materials, making things for Hardcore dudes, and most importantly they were helping the developers pay the bills. They dampened down their game play a bit so that Jo Schmo-Crafter could enjoy it too, and while a few of the 'Hardcore purists' up and left the void they created was quickly filled by everybody else AKA The Whales. The game rebounded, was still fun, and is doing pretty freaking well today.

 

A lot of developers watched that happen, and what they took away from it is that there has to be a place in a GOOD game for everybody, whales and no-lifers alike. You will have a place in this game where you can do what you'd like, and while it may not be GLORIOUS you can expect to have fun, and that's what truly matters.

 

 

So, why should I give money? Why should I strive to help support a game that is meant for gamers who openly disdain the casual gamer, knowing that they are the players who will benefit from my "whale" financial contributions, and then knowing that they deliberately seek out casual gamers such as myself as targets in-game?

 

Doc/Monkey already answered this, in that we can't answer it for you. We can't give you reasons to throw your money at something you think you won't enjoy, or convince you that you'll enjoy it. What we can tell you is that the game, having made it's first goal, is going to be made regardless and if you revoked your pledge or even just lowered it there would be little if any impact.

 

 

I want to play Crowfall, but the more I read in the forums, the less I like the idea of helping paying for some of these players' dream game. 

 

If someone with a shred of politeness and common courtesy would share some perspective, I'd appreciate it much. 

 

Do yourself a favor and stay away from the Crowfall forums unless you're reading an official update, from now until release you'll find little other than the self-touted 'hardcores' as the rest of Crowfall's eager and expectant fleet withdraw onto their guild forums, away from the 'WE WANT BOOBIES' and 'MAKE THE GAME FOR MEEEEEE BECAUSE I THREW YOU MONEY' mentalities. As we head into the Alpha the mood will turn around, and even more so when we head for the beta, but right now it's just a bunch of folks hanging around because they've nothing better to do desperate for any content at all, even if it's at the expense of their fellow players.

 

 

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All off this makes the game like real life doesnt it.

People will put you down,kill you from the inside,benefit from your suffering and sorts.

But just in real life you will find people you can rely on,find your own group and face your enemies head on.Make them kneel!

 

In a game full of enemies,we fear nothing! :D

Edited by StiviRibar
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I am what people would call a casual gamer. I supported this project, because I see in it something, hopefully, that won't just be another wow clone. I have not tried many MMO type games, but I have seen a lot of repetitive content out there. Not saying their isn't a good way to make an MMO style game based off of the wow system. Just like with anything that gives access and anonymity to a large number of people, there will be jerks and idiots. That is simply unavoidable, but there are also many others willing to help and be friendly to people, like me, who don't know much.  

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If you are put off to a game by reading its forums...that would probably be every MMO out there.

 

Forums are full of trolls, boasters, whiners, complainers and generally people you would want to pat...on the head...with a hammer (and yes, I realize I'm on a forum right now writing a post).

 

There is always going to be PvE/PvP hate.  Who are 'they'?  Those who are not us.

 

Hardcore.  Casual.  Raider.  PvPer.  It doesn't matter who you are or what you enjoy, there will always be a group that will not like you.

 

"You can be the ripest, juiciest Peach in the world and there's still going to be somebody who hates Peaches." -Dita Von Teese

 

Ultimately, you have to do what pleases you.  If you're a casual and you can carve out a place for yourself in a PvP-Centric game, more power to you.  Do you, boo boo, do you.

http://www.twitch.tv/Waikikamukau Yes, it's Why-Kick-Uh-Moo-Cow / Twitter: @TheMukau

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First, thanks so much for the insightful replies to my initial post. I appreciate the brainstorming session :)

 

My line of questioning originated with a conversation I had with a colleague, an Econ. prof. who is also a gamer. I told him about the past couple of months of the Crowfall experience, and he asked some probing questions about why I got interested and why I thought Crowfall would be a good investment.

 

Thinking about the conversation let to my original post and query, and further thought has determined that my question is really two; Should I have pledged to begin with? (Buyer’s Remorse) Answer: Probably; and, Should I pledge again in the future? (Why should I?)  

 

Why did I invest time and then money from the beginning? Is it appreciation for innovation? Support for JT’s art? Simple curiosity? The answer is all three, but I hadn’t really thought of the larger reasons for getting involved until I read some of the replies to this thread.

 

The way I look at it is I am not just supporting a game that, based on everything I can find, will appeal to my interests. But I am also supporting the idea that innovation can be funded this way, and in fact should be funded this way.

 

ACE is a f*ckton of industry talent who have all decided to innovate, versus iterate - that gets my money.

 

 

Iridian, no one can answer that question except you. You could have asked the General Forum "Why do I like butterflies?". Why kind of answer do you honestly expect? You already knew what they're going to say before you hit Post.

 

This is a forum about a game that is in PRE-Alpha and only just recently officially announced itself unto the world. You've received tidbits of information here and there. You've clung onto that druid avatar since the first time I took notice of your posts. You, for a reason unknown to no one but you, said "I've been excited about this project from the beginning, I've been in these forums since day 1, and I was thrilled to contribute to the kickstarter as soon as it opened." Take some time, ignore everything else, and reflect on this.

 

Play because you want to. Contribute, if you feel the cause is just to you. Help fund my dream game, if you want to. Love butterflies, always.

 

Thanks for providing me some insight into the more philosophical, aesthetic reasons for my initial enthusiasm for Crowfall. These are likely the sorts of reasons that will influence my decision fund or not in the future. And Ubermonkey, I do love butterflies :)

 

I’m committed to my pledge for the Kickstarter, because I admire the creativity and innovation of the team. I support JTodd’s work, because he made great games in the past, Wizard and Pirate 101; I like his design mind and his style as a games master. I love that there’s a physicist on the team. I am also curious about Koster’s crafting systems. I want to explore a brand new world and make new friends. I also want a nice mental challenge.

 

Regarding character development, I’m totally in. I have already picked out my 1-3 characters, named them, given them back stories, and started thinking about their various skills. I’m heavily invested in character development and activities such as crafting and building. These elements, though, appear to be hazy in the minds of the developers.

 

Building and Crafting are far too mysterious at this point. Where are the systems?  

 

I’m not sure how many people saw this article from a while back, but it makes bold promises for crafters in Crowfall. The lack of follow-up information about these important elements of the game reinforces my thought that the game is much more sharply focused on a tiny niche group than I originally expected. The article linked above states a heavy emphasis on crafting, I’ll assume building is also crafting-based a la Minecraft, yet we have no word as to the development of those systems. The Dregs is not a place to build permanent structures or to craft extensively in a meaningful way. What are crafters to do while we wait for an environment that supports our interests?

 

We’re all here for PvP. That’s the premise of the game, and that’s why I stayed along for the ride to the Kickstarter. I have a short but successful history of pvp, and I want to take it to a new level and in a new direction. But the idea of playing in the Dregs only at first bugs me. I don’t like that the kickstarter was intended only for the Dregs, if that is indeed the fact; it was not mentioned in any of the early content releases. The devs haven’t, to my knowledge, provided an explanation of how that might work. It just seems counter-intuitive to pit people against one another in the harshest of encounters when they already have a learning curve that, for many, will be increased by some, little, or no pvp experience. This leads back to the wolves and sheep metaphor. I feel hesitant to back a game that seems to reinforce such a predatory dynamic in players’ early experiences in the game. I think Oridi said it best:

 

I have an alarm set on my phone for March 25th at 4:45 pm. 

 

That's my decision moment about whether I'll be keeping my KS pledge in or pulling my support and participation in CF.

 

I posted elsewhere about how the game structure seems to funnel players into a very narrow mindset about what is "fun" in a game and does not allow much free thought or alternative ways to enjoy the game.  It's odd given the focus in the promotion items on how CF is a player driven game.   The win at all costs or you're punished and here's your definition of win mindset required to enjoy CF as presented so far is very, very specific.  It can be tough to find common ground among the players, especially here on the boards.  

 

(Just for you @DocGonzo), I’ve been here since the beginning, and I’m fascinated by the entire process of how we have evolved and integrated and sorted over time. I would agree that the forums are full of interesting insights, ideas, etc. But it's easy to see the contempt for the casual gamer. I wonder if the initial marketing campaign was a “draw sheep for the wolves” sort of strategy. I dislike the idea that casual gamers like me are known as “whales” and that we are best used to fund games for tiny niche players. This is my sticking point, because I want to see the content that has been heavily implied from the start, yet is not at all explained or exemplified to date. I don’t want to find that the promises of crafting and building are mere carrots to draw my fat purse into the funding fray.

 

Thanks to @Barlioch and @Knyght for nice reminders that the general themes of the forums are skewed toward a narrow representation of the actual game community.  You both reinforce the necessity to join a guild.

 

I think @fawne has the best concept for the “whale” player’s place in the evolving community of CF players. LOLZ

 

Half a decade ago a game came out that marketed it's self almost solely to the 'hardcore' gamer, the guy that wanted a challenge in every facet of his gaming. Their developers found out pretty quickly that the 'casual' gamer was actually necessary because in most MMO's while the hardcore guy was logging in X hours a week to kill Y boss for Z amazing gear before logging off for a week again, the casuals filled in the blanks, gathering materials, making things for Hardcore dudes, and most importantly they were helping the developers pay the bills. They dampened down their game play a bit so that Jo Schmo-Crafter could enjoy it too, and while a few of the 'Hardcore purists' up and left the void they created was quickly filled by everybody else AKA The Whales. The game rebounded, was still fun, and is doing pretty freaking well today.

 

A lot of developers watched that happen, and what they took away from it is that there has to be a place in a GOOD game for everybody, whales and no-lifers alike. You will have a place in this game where you can do what you'd like, and while it may not be GLORIOUS you can expect to have fun, and that's what truly matters.

^^^^^^Nice parable. 

 

So yeah, I have lots of questions that need answers, and lots of further questions based on those answers. Mostly, I want to be dazzled and excited enough to not even think about whether I’m a sheep, a whale, a bear, or any other mammal in the marketing food chain when my Druid girl steps into the game world for the first time.

 
Thanks again for the conversation. By all means, continue to edify me ;)
Edited by iridianshadowweaver

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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