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Non Player Characters

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I am interested in how NPCs are going to be handled with the procedural generation (if there are going to be NPCs at all). Will we be able to interact with them? Are there going to be quests? Or is everything going to be handled by the players?

Edited by Unme

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There are no quest givers, don't think there are vendors either.


...obstacles do not exist to be surrendered to, but only to be broken. "***** ******"
I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion. "Alexander the Great"

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No quest givers, no non-player managed vendors is what we are looking toward right now.

 

There will be various npcs around but primarily combat based.


Tully Ackland

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc. 

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No quest givers, no non-player managed vendors is what we are looking toward right now.

 

There will be various npcs around but primarily combat based.

YES!

 

I like that more.

 

Even the most basic stuff shouldn't be spammed infinitely by npc vendors.

 

YOu get the stuff, set up shop, hire a npc.

WHola. Best interaction set.

 

Because when people see, you got these resources or buy these.

They will start talking to you.

Which will give you requests.

Which in fact makes the economy lively.

 

q.q

 

I loved saturday morning market time. On Ragnarok Online Europa.

we came togehter and had a stand about in a port city.

Merch's set up shops.

People who wanted stuff chats.

Dance partys.

Contest PvP.

And even after glow boss hunts.

 

One time .. a GM raided us and spawned bosses with hilarious amounts of hp ... was a bloodfeast. But yeah.

overall that interaction made so much fun.

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In the Re-Rolled interview, JT made a remark like, "we don't want to always allow Uncle Bob to bring in all his infantry at campaign start because that set's up the Tyrant scenario we are actively trying to avoid."  Does this imply that NPCs could be soldiers to us players (noblemen, barons, dukes, kings, etc.) ?

 

By the way, I like the idea of having NPCs as my pages and stewards. I will play an archer and I'm a fan of finite ammo to add realism to this game. If I have 1 or 2 NPCs schlepping quivers to me on the battlefield, I think that adds an awesome level of realism.


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         http://crowfall.shivtr.com/  The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home.

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In the Re-Rolled interview, JT made a remark like, "we don't want to always allow Uncle Bob to bring in all his infantry at campaign start because that set's up the Tyrant scenario we are actively trying to avoid." Does this imply that NPCs could be soldiers to us players (noblemen, barons, dukes, kings, etc.) ?

 

Interesting if we get to hire a few guards to help defend our place for the night. They should not replace any kind of mercenary guild but not everyone would be able to afford those... then a few guards would come in handy.


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No quest givers, no non-player managed vendors is what we are looking toward right now.

 

There will be various npcs around but primarily combat based.

 

Awesome, one of the best ways to alleviate ganking is removing the places that newbies are forced to go. Thats in addition to the player vendors being fun.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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So in what ways can we interact with NPC's beyond combat? What's keeping this from being a repeat of Darkfall unholy wars (No quests, no story, just grind...and maybe pvp sometimes...)?

 

This is exactly what I was afraid of and is probably the worst news I've heard about the game so far. With no quests, what is there to do with the character, what RP opportunities are there, what's giving any context or background? Collect, combat, craft...aaaaaand thatsit.

 

Yes most quests are just combat ops, but the main thing they did was provide some variety (granted, the not exactly yhe most thrilling forms of combat, but they served their purpose) and most importantly, give background for immersion. TBH, don't really mind loss of questgivers, more bummed that there the potential sources of context and storytelling is now severely limited. If i want a pvp centric game, it doesn't need to last a month or a have a premise, I just pop TF2 or a generic fps, and g2g. I have plenty of pvp alternatives without having to resort to NPC-less GW2 WvWvW. Guess this game isn't going to be as "different" as I thought.

 

Tbh, one of the main reasons I stay MMORPGs is for storytelling...was why I didn't stick with TERA or Rift (terrible storytelling...rift wasn't horrible, but certainly not enough to keep me hooked) but arguing on the WoW and EQ forums about whether Thrall and Jaina were ever going to hook up, or the trials and tribulations of Fippy Darkpaw and Hogger was why I stayed. Wouldn't have even touched TSW if not for the story. Without lore, story, or at least background, the game world is going to be plenty lonesome and dull, going to be DFUW all over again.

 

No background, god knows how lore is going to be distributed (if there is any), and RP opportunites just flew out the window here. Not saying there won't be any, I have faith the players can pull something off, but without any context, doubt anything will really come of it. In these kinds of games, players have a tendency to just gogogo and whatever immersion there could have been devolves into generic hackfests and grinds.

 

Might as well throw out the RPG out of the MMORPG. Still going to follow the game, but going to take a lot more to convince me to spend money now.

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There is still Lore for the game, Tbh quest give little to almost no lore. and questgivers are certainly not needed to make for good RP good RP comes from the player not the NPC.

 

You're guildmaster can also act as a questgiver to you if you join some RP community.

 

And with the removal of NPC vendors I would actualy see more RP going on than not.


...obstacles do not exist to be surrendered to, but only to be broken. "***** ******"
I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion. "Alexander the Great"

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There is still Lore for the game, Tbh quest give little to almost no lore. and questgivers are certainly not needed to make for good RP good RP comes from the player not the NPC.

 

You're guildmaster can also act as a questgiver to you if you join some RP community.

 

And with the removal of NPC vendors I would actualy see more RP going on than not.

 

That´s exactly my thought as well. Create the quests youself. Gather ppl around you and start doing something different. In almost every MMO i played playerdriven events were tho most fun, be it raiding a factions city (which will be almost everydays business in CF) or just some pvp bareknuckle boxing fights in taverns.

 

And if that´s not enough, I can give you a quest: Gather 20 piles of stone for me. The reward will be the feeling that you just did a quest like in WoW. sounds good doesn´t it? ;)

Edited by juicyloop

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That´s exactly my thought as well. Create the quests youself. Gather ppl around you and start doing something different. In almost every MMO i played playerdriven events were tho most fun, be it raiding a factions city (which will be almost everydays business in CF) or just some pvp bareknuckle boxing fights in taverns.

 

And if that´s not enough, I can give you a quest: Gather 20 piles of stone for me. The reward will be the feeling that you just did a quest like in WoW. sounds good doesn´t it? ;)

Losing vendors and quest givers, I really couldn't care less about (vendors always gave crap gear anyhow, and quests really don't do a whole lot to shake up a game anyhow, simply providing direction to find combat and directing player traffic in most cases). But NPC's at least kept a world feeling populated, alive, and served as the primary vehicle to distribute lore. That was the NPC's primary function, to at least provide purpose and context to a game. Try playing a story driven PnP without NPC's, you're in for an exercise in frustration.

 

For MMO's, I certainly don't stay for the combat or revolutionary gameplay, I mostly stay because of its open and flexible storytelling, giving players enough context to form their own narratives but don't necessarily handhold the plot as aggressively as single player RPG's. Generally, MMO's provide enough context for players to interpret events as they choose without outright telling players how they should piece the puzzle together (At least in the early days of MMO's...these days, storytelling has been much more opaque and aggressive, which is why I quit a number of MMO's).

 

Back in WoW's glory days, I loved the long and epic questlines, in which you could gather lore from the quest text, but also pick up clues and additional lore from just talking to the NPC's and interacting with the environment...Quests like the Curse of Stalvan, The Scythe of Elune, the Battle of Darrowshire, and Cortello's Riddle (I got to give Blizzard props for these questlines...Vanilla WoW knew how to mix lore and the environment). These weren't just gather fetch quests, they were purely story driven, and were even light on combat, culminating in a light boss battle at the end. But people didn't enjoy them for the reward or the mechanics involved, they were fun and memorable purely because of the lore and storytelling. These questlines also did little to direct player traffic, often sending players to multiple zones and out of the way places purely so players could enjoy a vista, or discover more about the game's lore...they were purely to give the players a good RP experience. Try having storytelling experiences like that in a game without NPC's. (Sadly, these questlines have been removed or significantly simplified to be an indescribably weak RP experience...thanks Crapaclysm).

 

Darkfall tried a similar model to Crowfall regarding an all player based MMORPG, having no NPC's or background lore, save a single premise...and I'd rather just forget that experience. It's simply next to impossible to have any good storytelling without some forms of NPC interaction. Sure, I don't doubt that RP guilds could come up with some great stories...for launch, maybe longer depending just how dedicated they are to providing RP than to experience it (and as stated before on other threads, an issue with player driven RPG's is that no one can really play 24/7...if you can legitimately claim that you can, you have other issues the require addressing immediately). Without any NPC's or context, these stories are going to get tired and dried up pretty quick. As a DnD vet, NPC's and lore were the weapons of choice for a DM in a PnP game, was our bread and butter for a good storytelling experience.

 

ACE is basically giving us our sandbox, but taking away the toys. I'm not jumping on a bandwagon just for the sand.

Edited by RKNM

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Well tbh i dont think that CF is seeing itself as a story telling game. It said Throne War Simulator. In a Throne War, hunt for ressources, scouting enemy movement ant tactics will be focus, not NPCs telling you where to go and so on. Back in those WoW glory days, most of the PvP players (i´m talking about rank 10 and beyond lvl) didn´t give a damn whether there was a big lore behind the warsong gulch or arathi basin or not. The goal was simply to get the assignment done, capture the flag or gather res by controling node points. I see CF more as a big battleground with those MMO features suited to it needs and to increase versatility. 

Don´t get me wrong, I love great storytelling and I enjoy PnP aswell. I used to play "Das Schwarze Auge" a lot, which is a german PnP. 

They just say that there won´t be any quest givers, which doesn´t mean there won´t be any NPCs that are still able to tell a story. It´s just not the Focus of CF.

Edited by juicyloop

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Well tbh i dont think that CF is seeing itself as a story telling game. It said Throne War Simulator. In a Throne War, hunt for ressources, scouting enemy movement ant tactics will be focus, not NPCs telling you where to go and so on. Back in those WoW glory days, most of the PvP players (i´m talking about rank 10 and beyond lvl) didn´t give a damn whether there was a big lore behind the warsong gulch or arathi basin or not. The goal was simply to get the assignment done, capture the flag or gather res by controling node points. I see CF more as a big battleground with those MMO features suited to it needs and to increase versatility. 

Don´t get me wrong, I love great storytelling and I enjoy PnP aswell. I used to play "Das Schwarze Auge" a lot, which is a german PnP. 

They just say that there won´t be any quest givers, which doesn´t mean there won´t be any NPCs that are still able to tell a story. It´s just not the Focus of CF.

If Crowfall isn't a game about storytelling, that's fine...it's just something that I and other Bartle Explorers probably wouldn't be interested in playing for very long.  Warsong Gulch games would last, idk...30 minutes? Like I said, I wasn't really interested in WoW for it's gameplay at the time (granted, it certainly seemed much more impressive back in those days than it does today), but I was more interested in it's storytelling and ability to set up RP opportunities. That said, this is hard to do when all of your NPC's are mobs (not even good mobs...most of them seem like trash mobs, tbh, I miss the days of elite mobs that required actual tactics when engaging...though this is a pvp focused game, no reason we can't have decent mobs to maybe strategize around, such as hitting an enemy player into a dragons fire blast, but I digress...).

 

If they want to have a pure PvP experience that's fine, but it's not something that I'd be real interested to stay with unless they can provide some storytelling. Unfortunately, I have a lot of options for PvP games. I was hoping that this could at least provide context and substance to the typical PvP sloshfest that so many other "MMOs" prescribe to, like TF2 and LoL. Those are great...for about 30 minutes of play. I play MMORPG's mostly for the escapism; for escapism to work, you need that level of immersion provided by rich game lore and storytelling. Otherwise, I pop in for a match, once it's over, I move on, because the game has nothing left to offer than a brief period fun, there's no need for me to continue to learn about motivations, or understand more about an environment, or why characters behave a certain way. Like I said, I care so little about the "fetch/kill 20 bears" quests, but I rely on the stories and lore of the game world to provide the immersion I need for that escapism.

 

It's also not like i need a ton of narrative for story telling either. Most DM's only need a pretty solid understanding of the game's setting and history, and they fill in the story themselves...that said, this is hard to do without your NPC's. If they add just a handful of Lore-driven NPC's, and maybe some recurring characters (for a sense of continuity) per world to add context and background to that current conflict or world, that's fantastic, I can already start filling in holes in lore and create my own RP experience. That's what i thought the game was going to be like, light episodic narrative for each world for background and history, PvP RP during that campaign, then the story would continue in the next conflict/world. The light storytelling that I love in MMORPG's as opposed to the heavy handed themeparks of SP RPG's. So I hope that your predication that there will be at least a few NPC's to provide prupose and context is correct.

 

I treat MMORPGs like a more involved television series. Sure I could tune into the Game of Thrones show, finish the episode and wrack my brain to speculate on next week after getting 30-45 minutes of content...BUT in the Game of Thrones MMORPG, I can talk to the characters to better understand their views and motivations, find out what the peasantry think of recent events, learn about the myths and legends of the world, find out why strategies and batteplans are made based on the environment, etc. In an MMORPG, I don't have to be satisfied with my 30 minutes of play per week/day (your typical PvP match), I can keep playing to piece things together myself by continuously exploring and understanding the game world (your RPG and lore/storytelling elements).

Edited by RKNM

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Well you can talk to Characters to understand their views and motivation, but in CF these Characters aren´t the NPCs, the Players are the ones to talk to.

If you do it right, it should be at least as interesting as talking to NPCs, if not, you´re doing something wrong ^^

I´m pretty sure CF will find a way to let you experience the base lore/story of that universe, but the main story will be simply defined by the players.

There is no better story than politics. Just take our conversation here as an example, you join the campaign to explore it´s myths and explore the world you were dropped in.

I join the campaign to purely conquest and expand my kingdom. That´s only the first act in the game of politics if you wanna call it. Are we able to put weapons down and talk about ressource managment? Or do you have to simply face the aggressor and fight back. Are there other ways to reach the goal of that campaign? Forge Alliances with other guilds/players that share the same attitudes? Or do we have to work together to face another threat, the third faction which suddenly rises from nowhere and claims our land? There are possibly thousands of ways to interprete that Throne War and it´s politics (player/guild/faction interactions) without even the need to talk to one NPC. Of course, this big sandbox might sound idealistic, thats for sure, but i think it can just work out fine without NPCs if the political and war managment is decent enough to use it as a tool.

Like I said it´s a throne war simulator with basic politics and not a premade story driven MMO like SWTOR (i really loved the storytelling) or so. If you want to know the Story behind the Throne you´re waging war against or you´re working together with, just ask the person who sits on it ^^

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Well you can talk to Characters to understand their views and motivation, but in CF these Characters aren´t the NPCs, the Players are the ones to talk to.

If you do it right, it should be at least as interesting as talking to NPCs, if not, you´re doing something wrong ^^

I´m pretty sure CF will find a way to let you experience the base lore/story of that universe, but the main story will be simply defined by the players.

There is no better story than politics. Just take our conversation here as an example, you join the campaign to explore it´s myths and explore the world you were dropped in.

I join the campaign to purely conquest and expand my kingdom. That´s only the first act in the game of politics if you wanna call it. Are we able to put weapons down and talk about ressource managment? Or do you have to simply face the aggressor and fight back. Are there other ways to reach the goal of that campaign? Forge Alliances with other guilds/players that share the same attitudes? Or do we have to work together to face another threat, the third faction which suddenly rises from nowhere and claims our land? There are possibly thousands of ways to interprete that Throne War and it´s politics (player/guild/faction interactions) without even the need to talk to one NPC. Of course, this big sandbox might sound idealistic, thats for sure, but i think it can just work out fine without NPCs if the political and war managment is decent enough to use it as a tool.

Like I said it´s a throne war simulator with basic politics and not a premade story driven MMO like SWTOR (i really loved the storytelling) or so. If you want to know the Story behind the Throne you´re waging war against or you´re working together with, just ask the person who sits on it ^^

Well, it's not surprising that there are at least SOME NPCs, seeing as our Eternal Heroes are able to harvest the souls of the people in the dying worlds and use them as thralls (player-controlled NPCs used to run shop stands and sell our stuff), enchantments (imbuing souls into items for stat boosts), and offerings to our gods in temples in our EKs (I don't know if this is do-able in the Campaigns).


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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I'd like to see some peasants in a few randomly generated towns. That would be nice and fill things out. Lots of sentimental value.

If a town could suffer from...

the cold

and die

and turn into zombies

...from The Hunger

then I would totally build little fires for them. :3

 

Even if they did not really do anything except suffer and turned into depraved monsters that pose a real threat to players and may massacre them if they build to close to their town when The Hunger consumes them. I can see this happening... I feel as though there might be procedurally generated towns... (minecraft did it with NPCs) but, at this point I don't really expect Crowfall will do this even though it would be really cool! And I would really appreciate just the little detail.

 

There would be so much symbolic and sentimental values for these little "villagers" that could exist within procedurally generated towns (at the very least from me!). I would even go so far as to say that players would not be unlikely to form guilds to protect, or cull them the earth or at least try and cut down on building costs by using their walls and then perhaps suffer the consequences if they are not slain as villagers or protected before they die and turn into zombies.

 

It would just add that much more drama to the game!

Edited by CharlestheRammer

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To respond to:

I treat MMORPGs like a more involved television series. Sure I could tune into the Game of Thrones show, finish the episode and wrack my brain to speculate on next week after getting 30-45 minutes of content...BUT in the Game of Thrones MMORPG, I can talk to the characters to better understand their views and motivations, find out what the peasantry think of recent events, learn about the myths and legends of the world, find out why strategies and batteplans are made based on the environment, etc. In an MMORPG, I don't have to be satisfied with my 30 minutes of play per week/day (your typical PvP match), I can keep playing to piece things together myself by continuously exploring and understanding the game world (your RPG and lore/storytelling elements).

 

NPCs would be pretty neat for that reason, though I really hope they just have an existence that has some kind of place and surroundings. For me it does not need to have huge boxes of text. How similar can 100 worlds be to each other? They can't all have the exact same legends and lore and procedurally generating lore would be... eh difficult and likely not very meaningful. I think simply having a town in place somewhere (does not matter the size, scale or diversity) just... having one procedurally generated along with the game would provide a whole world of setting for the game. But perhaps you will just find -monsters- nearby and the townsfolk from this particular town dead/missing while another town that is procedurally generated is holding up.

 

They don't need names, they don't need dialogue or texts, it would just be great if they were there. That would create a whole universe, at least for me.

 

Edit Note: I re-read the strategy info page on the game. There will be castles and they will be filled with mobs it seems... don't know about friendly/neutral NPCs but something in terms of a really light story will be there. And I think that is enough to REALLY look forward too.

Edited by CharlestheRammer

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The stories of our campaigns will not be defined by lorescribblers in Austin: they will be written by players, in blood.

 

If you want to understand the motivations and views of the key figures in your gameworld, you're not going to get that info from an NPC, you're going to get it by talking to those key figures themselves. Or reading their forum posts. Or those of their enemies.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I'd like to see some peasants in a few randomly generated towns. That would be nice and fill things out. Lots of sentimental value.

If a town could suffer from...

the cold

and die

and turn into zombies

...from The Hunger

then I would totally build little fires for them. :3

 

Even if they did not really do anything except suffer and turned into depraved monsters that pose a real threat to players and may massacre them if they build to close to their town when The Hunger consumes them. I can see this happening... I feel as though there might be procedurally generated towns... (minecraft did it with NPCs) but, at this point I don't really expect Crowfall will do this even though it would be really cool! And I would really appreciate just the little detail.

 

There would be so much symbolic and sentimental values for these little "villagers" that could exist within procedurally generated towns (at the very least from me!). I would even go so far as to say that players would not be unlikely to form guilds to protect, or cull them the earth or at least try and cut down on building costs by using their walls and then perhaps suffer the consequences if they are not slain as villagers or protected before they die and turn into zombies.

 

It would just add that much more drama to the game!

 

This would be pretty cool. I would like if you could go in and terrorize them into fealty to you. (having a mechanic that allows you to control the building/town at some kind of taxation) and these npc's could actually go out and gather resources at some level for you. they could also be killed permanently. This would be fun. You and your friends could be a tyrant of a small town and potentially build it into something greater or have it all taken from you by the next band of tyrants.

 

These are the fun things in games imo. The more creative you are the more fun it is. Getting a quest to collect 300 pig ears is bloody boring as all hell.

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