No Health Bar

[macavity 736]

Calm down and take a deep breath.  Why are you so emotionally invested in a game that it's even in alpha?  This is just a discussion about a ruleset that some people might find interesting.  And that is the beauty of this game, we can try different rulesets whenever a new campaign starts.

I am completely calm. I just don't want this game to come out and then die like 1 year later due to it being too hardcore for it to have any playerbase. There has to be a balance between the hardcore and the fun.

 

I am personally fine with only showing healthbars when you are targeting players. I think that's a good compromise between what the "hardcore" people want and what wouldn't be completely stupid.

 

I completely agree that we should try out different things, but in most of these threads where people talk about what "hardcore" features they want, they almost always make it seem like that's the way it should be for the entire game or the game isn't "hardcore" enough and they think the game will fail and die.

 

In the majority of these threads the only real arguments almost always boils down to "it isn't hardcore", "it isn't realistic", "it's for carebears", "it ruins immersion", "it's spoonfeeding", etc.

 

There's nothing hardcore about removing healthbars. It just makes everyone fumble with estimates and guesses in the dark when the fights are bigger than something like 10v10. This is a game that's most likely gonna have several hundreds of people on screen for the majority of the playtime and no one is able to keep track of that many people. It's especially gonna be really tedious to play support classes/archetypes without any healthbars.

[Psyentific 463]

There's nothing hardcore about removing healthbars. It just makes everyone fumble with estimates and guesses in the dark when the fights are bigger than something like 10v10.

 

Pretty much this. If you take away in-game health bars, the first utility to come out is going to put them right back in.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Psyentific

[Nyt 1,028]

Pretty much this. If you take away in-game health bars, the first utility to come out is going to put them right back in.

 

IF addons are supported and IF the server is sending non-friendly character HP data to the players (game client) in the area.  Otherwise, it's a very viable ruleset option for Dregs, which could just be standard for those campaigns.

[mazh 383]

Only if everyone has the same HP. No "Stamina" items, only dmg avoidance

[Helix 3,272]

It would be interesting to have no health bars on players and NPCs/Monsters in the Dregs (and maybe the Shadow).  This level of uncertainty would lend itself to some really interesting game play.

 

  I can just picture coming back to town half dead when I see an assassin out of the corner of my eye.  Knowing that one backstab would be fatal I decide to charge her.  The bluff works, and she jumps into the shadows cowering in fear as I gallop into town.

Hopefully the devs learned their lesson from ESO. Obscuring information in that game did more harm than good for pvp and I hope they don't pick immersion over transparency and functionality.

[zinnie 2,399]

Hopefully the devs learned their lesson from ESO. Obscuring information in that game did more harm than good for pvp and I hope they don't pick immersion over transparency and functionality.

 

Agreed.

ESO tried to do the immersion game, and failed quite hard.

Having a healthbar is good for pvp, but bad for immersion.

Kinda depends on the vision ACE has with immersion, judging from their graphic choices, I dont think they are going for immersion.

[Wogga 31]

What, no health bar? So we're reduced to console shooter style BLOODY SCREEN SO REAL effects and guesstimate-esque animation effects?

No way.

 

No way. Think more long the lines of Chivalry.

[Wogga 31]

Hopefully the devs learned their lesson from ESO. Obscuring information in that game did more harm than good for pvp and I hope they don't pick immersion over transparency and functionality.

 

Never played ESO, but in some old school games, It was more fun not knowing when the boss you're fighting was going to die. You only had a slight guess. Made battle more intense.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Wogga

[Tipsy 504]

No way. Think more long the lines of Chivalry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kqVpt4JZvo&t=77

hell yes! something more along those lines..all that nagging about numbers and i find games that happens in not enjoyful any longer

When players brag about the numbers of  damage woah 15K ,i'm like whatever   It really bores me.

Most of the times I enjoy RP servers more.

 

Eso maybe tried to be an immersion game ,but it never came close to the other ES games when it came to interactible environments.

Eso had a minimalistic UI you could say and tried to be immersive.

With Emphasis on tried.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Tipsy

[xiomar 32]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kqVpt4JZvo&t=77

hell yes! something more along those lines..all that nagging about numbers and i find games that happens in not enjoyful any longer

When players brag about the numbers of  damage woah 15K ,i'm like whatever   It really bores me.

Most of the times I enjoy RP servers more.

 

Eso maybe tried to be an immersion game ,but it never came close to the other ES games when it came to interactible environments.

Eso had a minimalistic UI you could say and tried to be immersive.

With Emphasis on tried.

 

Yeah I really like this concept.

[Nyt 1,028]

...Eso had a minimalistic UI you could say and tried to be immersive.

With Emphasis on tried.

 

This is because they intended to release it on consoles as well (which are now on pre-order for PS4 and XBox), so they purposely designed for console first, but released PC first.  It happens all the time.

[EDM 1,055]

 

That would be interesting,

so you wouldn't be able to see your own bars either?

 

 

some thoughts;

stages of health good->bad:

 

healthy

wounded 

unconscious(depending on endurance you can have a certain amount of hp below 0 and as long as you are unconscious allies can revive you on the spot)

Dead(have to respawn)

 

Character status can be influenced by combat and environmental interaction

 

Afraid

Insane ( friendly fire )

diseased

sleepy

hungry

faint

Poisoned

Cripple

 

perhaps the side from which you attack can have an impact?flanking for example

Each race could have weak points

Example centaur:hind legs

 

 

=probably horrible victory outcomes and glitches at first

[Tipsy 504]

that they designed eso with console in mind perhaps also explains why it all felt so clunky(combat,interacting with objects)

 

@Eediom 

why horrible victory outcomes you think?glitches most likely

[jwjssif 22]

No thanks. Healthbar please.

[Tipsy 504]

Many people are so used to standard elements in games that they won't even consider that it could be done differently,maybe even better..

why have all these things to clutter up the screen? should life be measured in exact numbers?or would things like slightly/badly wounded be enough for players to respond to?

I think you could ask the same question for experience bars..is it really that exciting to measure experience in bars that keep filling up as you go?

Wouldn't it be better if we just strip out the thoughtless guff and focus back on a system where its all about making interesting decisions for your character?

The thrill of combat won't come with perfect information about hp.A healthbar will rarely keep you at the tip of your seat in battles because you are certain about things."Oh team member bambi has 75% health left,I'll heal him later" There is nothing exciting about combat this way.

I think combat needs a little uncertainty,like the possibility of a wall collapsing on your face..which could have instant death as a consequence..

Most of us probably have fought a keep or building in an mmo before;

Is it more exciting that you know in advance that you will have to keep hitting a structure for a while

Or when a forgemaster blows a hole through your standing wall to smash your skull in, as seen in the clip?(only destroying a part of an intact building instantly)

The game and immersion could profit from leaving things like healthbars out.

Uncertainties are required to keep things realistic and fun I think.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Tipsy

[EDM 1,055]

I feel like when these stuff actually happens, players are gonna be like, WHY HAVEN'T I LEVELLED UP YET??? HOW DID I DIE, I'M PETTY SURE I HAD MORE HEALTH!!! Or something like that. It's players' tendency to be picky no matter the situation.

[xiomar 32]

 

Many people are so used to standard elements in games that they won't even consider that it could be done differently,maybe even better..

why have all these things to clutter up the screen? should life be measured in exact numbers?or would things like slightly/badly wounded be enough for players to respond to?

I think you could ask the same question for experience bars..is it really that exciting to measure experience in bars that keep filling up as you go?

Wouldn't it be better if we just strip out the thoughtless guff and focus back on a system where its all about making interesting decisions for your character?

The thrill of combat won't come with perfect information about hp.A healthbar will rarely keep you at the tip of your seat in battles because you are certain about things."Oh team member bambi has 75% health left,I'll heal him later" There is nothing exciting about combat this way.

I think combat needs a little uncertainty,like the possibility of a wall collapsing on your face..which could have instant death as a consequence..

Most of us probably have fought a keep or building in an mmo before;

Is it more exciting that you know in advance that you will have to keep hitting a structure for a while

Or when a forgemaster blows a hole through your standing wall to smash your skull in, as seen in the clip?(only destroying a part of an intact building instantly)

The game and immersion could profit from leaving things like healthbars out.

Uncertainties are required to keep things realistic and fun I think.

 

 

I couldn't agree more!!!  There is so much more dynamic gameplay when you can't see your targets health bar .  For instance a Frost Weaver might try and burn you down from range as you charge him.  What this poor soul doesn't realize is that you have 75% cold resistance and his attack have little affect on you.  By the time he realizes his mistake it is to late and you cut him in half.

 

I also agree that the uncertainly of your environment adds to the experience.  Running across a castle wall to stop invaders only to have it collapse underneath you sounds awesome.    Personally I can't wait to fell a tree on top of someone 

Edited March 9, 2015 by xiomar

[doc gonzo 3,087]

 

just to be clear...

 

i'd REALLY enjoy seeing the damage on the Enemy, and having my own toon affected and so on in as much bloody and excruciating detail as possible...

 

in a single Player Game...

 

in an MMO, you hit the limits of bandwidth, cpu/gpu capabilities and then the big one...

 

MONEY....that all costs, and then to try and shoehorn it in when you can have 100s of Players onscreen at the same time, damaging and being damaged many many times per second...

 

well...mebbe when we put the plug into the backs of our skulls....but it just don't think it's possible to go that deeply yet....and i'd bet all my quatloos it'd be VERY expensive to even try...

 

could just be me

[Tipsy 504]

I don't know much about costs involved.But it makes sense that it would turn out to be more expensive.

On the other hand,if they would have told Edith Piaf to keep singing on the streets because 1there are too many costs involved becoming a real star(and she would have followed that advice)

she wouldn't be the legend she is today.

 

As far as i've seen in the released footage of Crowfall,

it appears to be a lot like one of my favorite games neverwinter nights 2 in some ways.With the floating damage numbers above the heads for example.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EptYl4xpRg&t=163

Big dmg numbers like 50999 are pointless and only clutter up the screen. If I recall right,30-40 dmg was a lot of damage in neverwinter 2

Personally I never was a big fan of the big numbers.

 

Maybe they can link the state of a character health to a color.

Like green numbers floating above the head: healing

Yellow numbers :character takes damage but is still above 50% hp

Orange numbers: character is below 50% hp

Red numbers: character has under 25% hp near death

Although this way they should really keep those colors to an absolute minimum.(or at least not too flashy)

Combined with combat animations of impact <-> severity;like if an enemy is set off-balance by the impact of your hammer smash, it means it is a critical hit.

things like poison,cripple,blinded would all be translated to a visual language.(though in neverwinter 2,as you can see in the link,it is just a poison,cripple icon floating next to the character;cheap but cool enough?)

This + interactive environment might achieve the same ,with less fancy animations & being cheaper

Edited March 10, 2015 by Tipsy

[Holyvigil 171]

I think the idea of no health bars is odd and I wouldn't care either way. The numbers inflation is annoying though. I've always thought it made more sense to use percentages rather than set numbers but no game has ever tried using that system so maybe it doesn't translate that well into a game.