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As for interface, to be challenging, the game doesn't need to force you to play with broken hands. Comfort and well thought design doesn't mean dumbing down. Ideally, player shouldn't notice the layer between him and the world -- the UI. Finesse, awareness, reaction and ability to predict actions should matter, not the ability to remember a lot of key bindings (which you will eventually remember, but I don't see a heroic feat in that).

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I think it was in the MMORPG video interviews, where either Todd or Gordon talked about wanting to find a balance between GW's 5 skills to WoW's 25+ skills to choose from.

 

Personally I found it pretty damn boring to have only a few options, so I'm happy about that. 

in the interview he said it he didnt want it to be massive so 40 moves would be a lot and even then he wasnt sure if you should be able to use them all freely i think its still open ended atm there not sure which is gonna be better thats what alpha testing is for

Hey just Shout Bremmen and he will, Rise and Destroy the people you wish decimated :o

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You can most certainly give someone a clue, but your knowlege is limited to consumption and as such will be reflected by what you've traditionally consumed. There are reasons focus testing is widely considered flawed. Most people don't really know what they like until they see it.

 

If you're not interested in more of the same, perhaps you should stop asking for it.

Except when you do, you get called out for it. See my posts on page one for reference.

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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The problem I see with people claiming that the interface with the game needs to be invisible is that they are essentially asking for a FPS.  If you want a FPS then go play Call of Duty or any of the other DOZENS of FPS games.  Then you don't have to worry about skills interrupting your immersion at all.  You still get your character development with your prestiges, weapon upgrades and all of that jazz and you can change weapons to change your style of play too.  Playing an FPS with a few extra buttons isn't strategy.  It is a very simple tactical game.  I can rebind 5 hot bar buttons to my mouse and never look back.  Does this provide me with immersion?  Yes when I get used to it.  Does it provide me with variety, strategy or anything else that keeps my game play from exactly resembling an FPS?  No it doesn't.  I have been playing online games since the BBS days.  I have played literally over a two dozen different MMOs.  Limiting players is never, ever a good idea.  When I have a lot of action bars to work with I set up multiple sets of skill combinations so that I can alter my game play based on my situation.  Skill groupings for scouting or heavy partition PvP are two sets and then their the kill it quick, defensive fight, and middle ground enemies as well as choices for group raids.  I am not forced to run in raids, solo, PvP or any specific style of anything.  My character has access to all of its abilities used any way I see fit.  Can I do what everyone else can do because I can use all of my skills?  No.

 

The game is designed well enough that each character has one role at a time because the classes are actually different from each other.  Even in Rift you have to completely rework your thought processes to change to your different skill sets because there are too many skills to easily slip from high gear into each different play style.  Can people use macros and bind up actions?  Yes they can and if the game makes that easy then guess what.  Those who want to make macros and only hit up to 5 buttons can do that.  The persons who don't want to be locked into complex skill chains don't have to use macros or they can use shorter ones.  The key to the success here is that all options are available and you don't turn the default game into an FPS.   You don't force play styles down players throats.  You don't stop players from being able to succeed because the certain type of player they need for help with something isn't available.  The more possible skill schemes you have the more you can compensate for your group possibly missing a certain set of skills.  If you want to play a game on a console and not bother with the game interface then play console games.  PC games have the capacity to be customizable and complex which is their strongest appeal because it is something you cannot get anywhere else.

 

There really is no point to limited action sets at all.  It pigeon holes players into very specific choices which make everyone exactly the same and only how well you handle your mouse makes any difference at all.  How well you handle your controller is what consoles are all about and what they are made for so go for it if you want that kind of experience.  Stop telling everyone that freedom to choose is an evil thing.  Freedom to choose is the only good thing gaming has because it allows you to change the game to suit you instead of changing you to suit the game.

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I feel as though if I want every single one of my skills, potions, etc on my action bars there should be support for that... I like to have my options all right there. Although most games, if you can do it, it was because of a mod.

 

At the jump, I'd like to see 10 slots, with an option to move it to 20 with an additional bar. These are just my default numbers without any prior knowledge of the extent of skills or consumables in the game.

Sneak home and pray you'll never know the hell where youth and laughter go.

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I'm hoping there aren't action bars and they come up with something novel. I'm bored with hotbars.

 

Agree. Best scenario would be real time combat instead of pressing 1 1 2 2 4 3 1. Actual action rpg combat with extra skills/spells mapped to keyboard would be ideal for me but I dont think there is any hope for that. 

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Why bother with RPGs?  What you want is a FPS and there are TONS of them out there.  I don't get it.

 

Agree. Best scenario would be real time combat instead of pressing 1 1 2 2 4 3 1. Actual action rpg combat with extra skills/spells mapped to keyboard would be ideal for me but I dont think there is any hope for that. 

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I hope its more than 5, GW2/W*/ESO makes the class feel so shallow.

 

I can't agree more and I will add that it bores the player much faster. I like the ability to choose the abilities I use but I want a decent amount which is at least 25 in order to have 12+ active abilities, 10 feels a bit low in my opinion.

 

I want to see a gameplay depth.

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Let's say Crowfall will use a system where you chose a power and then activate it with mousebutton 1. At least I hope they will use something like that, because aiming and then activating with a key is an absolute garbage mechanic. 

 

I don't honestly understand what you're saying here. How and why would I active every single skill with mousebutton 1? Why can't I just aim my crosshair and hit my keybind? So let's say I have something bound to Q, aim the camera and hit Q, done. Maybe the next skill is on 4, so I then hit 4, etc. Simple and same as every other action game? One button and done, instantly, it can't possibly be easier than that.

 

Are you talking about having a wheel like DF:UW or ESO's extra slot, where things are bound to the wheel and then you have to scroll through the wheel to get your active skill? That is such a clunky and time-consuming mechanic, I can't fathom why you'd want to do that.

 

 

You're assuming I'm trying to solve for clicking. I just understand that the average person's hand can only comfortably reach to the 5 key on a QWERTY keyboard. Four or five is also really safe for gamepad players and puts less focus on keyboard and more focus on mouse and movement. I'm of the opinion that aim, positioning, and combos are what modern combat should aim for. Game design shouldn't need more than 5 buttons beyond a max two keyboard movement buttons. Potentially with shift as a sprint modifier and space to jump.

 
TERA uses standard hotbars and also comfortably supports a gamepad (as does FFXIV for that matter which also uses standard hotbars). And since TERA uses a crosshair, it's literally impossible to click anything in combat which means everyone has to memorize and quickly be able to reach a variety of keys. I can tell you TERA has a wide variety of players, both casual and hardcore, from all around the world, and they all manage to deal with the 15-35 keybinds per class with no issue at all (yes I have about 35 keybinds that I actively and frequently use in combat on my Priest in TERA and only 9 are bound to the mouse). Beyond that, various game functions such as Interact, reply to whisper, etc. are also keybound to various other keys. And I'm a girl so you can't even bring the "some people have small hands" BS into that argument, either. And TERA includes aiming, positioning, dodging, blocking, combos, fast combat, and everything else you have in an action combat game. The "average person" is more capable than you're giving them credit for.
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I don't honestly understand what you're saying here. How and why would I active every single skill with mousebutton 1? Why can't I just aim my crosshair and hit my keybind? So let's say I have something bound to Q, aim the camera and hit Q, done. Maybe the next skill is on 4, so I then hit 4, etc. Simple and same as every other action game? One button and done, instantly, it can't possibly be easier than that.

 

Are you talking about having a wheel like DF:UW or ESO's extra slot, where things are bound to the wheel and then you have to scroll through the wheel to get your active skill? That is such a clunky and time-consuming mechanic, I can't fathom why you'd want to do that.

 

Dunno how UW or ESO did it... never played UW and forgot how ESO did it, ebcause I uninstalled on the 2nd day of beta ;)

 

 

You want it like TERA does it, I want it like DFO did it.

 

You chose the spell and then activate it with MB1, just like you would when flipping through weapons in an FPS game. But without any animation delay of pulling out a different weapon. This also allows for channeling spells, where you hold down MB1 to charge it up. Charging a spell while holding down the 4 button is just annoying.

I think it allows for way more flexibility and you're able to switch to the next ability while your character is still in the animation of the previous one, so there are also no problems when it comes to the fluidity of combat.

It also makes for easier aiming, compared to aiming and firing something with a button on the keyboard.

 

Might be just a preference thing, but the whole concept is just more sound imo ;)

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Dunno how UW or ESO did it... never played UW and forgot how ESO did it, ebcause I uninstalled on the 2nd day of beta ;)

 

 

You want it like TERA does it, I want it like DFO did it.

 

You chose the spell and then activate it with MB1, just like you would when flipping through weapons in an FPS game. But without any animaitond elay of pulling out a different weapon. This also allows for channeling spells, where you hold down MB1 to charge it up. Charging a spell while holding down the 4 button is just annoying.

I think it allows for way more flexibility and you're able to switch to the next ability while your character is still in the animation of the previous one, so there are also no problems when it comes to the fluidity of combat.

It also makes for easier aiming, compared to aiming and firing something with a button on the keyboard.

 

Might be just a preference thing, but the whole concept is just more sound imo ;)

 

Yea but how do you choose the spell? It sounds difficult to be honest to have to cycle through a menu to choose something. It's a lot easier and quicker to just hit a keybind isn't it? I can see myself failing way too easily, or being interrupted, or cycling to the wrong spell, etc. No menus mid-combat please.

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Yea but how do you choose the spell? It sounds difficult to be honest to have to cycle through a menu to choose something. It's a lot easier and quicker to just hit a keybind isn't it? I can see myself failing way too easily, or being interrupted, or cycling to the wrong spell, etc. No menus mid-combat please.

 

nah you just have multiple hotbars and then you assign keybinds to the slots.

 

When I press E I select slot 5 in hotbar 3. Whatever I put in there previously is what will be selected. Then I activate with MB1

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nah you just have multiple hotbars and then you assign keybinds to the slots.

 

When I press E I select slot 5 in hotbar 3. Whatever I put in there previously is what will be selected. Then I activate with MB1

How is that better then simply aiming at a target and hitting whichever keybind you have set to an ability? Your way sounds like you have to hit at least two buttons to activate an ability. Normal way is just one. Don't see where the improvement is.

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How is that better then simply aiming at a target and hitting whichever keybind you have set to an ability? Your way sounds like you have to hit at least two buttons to activate an ability. Normal way is just one. Don't see where the improvement is.

 

I explained all that a couple of posts further up

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I explained all that a couple of posts further up

Yeah I read that as well as the latest post, but neither answered the question.

 

How is having to hit two buttons instead of just one, better? Saying it does isn't the same as explaining how it does.

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Why bother with RPGs?  What you want is a FPS and there are TONS of them out there.  I don't get it.

Because games are RPGs because of hotbars? Where's the logic there?

 

He doesn't say FPS. In fact he doesn't say anything. He just says he wants something else than what we've seen. Then you walk in with a nonsense comment.

 

The combat system doesn't make a game an RPG. Having a character that you can grow over time does. A character that allows you to play a role in a game. Pretty basic concept.

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Agree. Best scenario would be real time combat instead of pressing 1 1 2 2 4 3 1. Actual action rpg combat with extra skills/spells mapped to keyboard would be ideal for me but I dont think there is any hope for that. 

ACE is going for Action Combat. What you describe is very likely exactly what they are trying to do. You Aim, you attack/block/dodge using left/right mouse buttons and you have some keybinds.

 

Honestly there is only so many ways to do it, there really isn't anything "new" they can do besides maybe an interface that taps directly into your brain...  But yeah whether its an actual bar, some kind of radial menu there will be some kind of interface for selecting abilities to use, no way around it.

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Because games are RPGs because of hotbars? Where's the logic there?

 

He doesn't say FPS. In fact he doesn't say anything. He just says he wants something else than what we've seen. Then you walk in with a nonsense comment.

 

The combat system doesn't make a game an RPG. Having a character that you can grow over time does. A character that allows you to play a role in a game. Pretty basic concept.

 

 

Actually, every game these days allow your character to grow over time including RPGs so you are starting off with a fallacious argument.  What makes it an RPG is that your character not only evolves but you have options for interacting.  That comes with a hotbar and a wide variety of choices.  FPS games eliminate choice and give you point and shoot which is exactly what he is asking for when he says he wants to eliminate the interface to enhance immersion.  RPGs have always been about choice and FPSs have always been about limited choice to enhance combat immersion.  It really has become that simple.  FPSs now have systems in place for prestige and weapons upgrades that are the equivalent of character growth in RPGs.  The interface is all that is left to differentiate the two.  The 'quests' in an FPS are simplistic and more direct but the process is the same.  You do this and your receive that.  Seeing something we haven't seen means you no longer have what you had when you started.  In this case you start with an RPG and change it into something we have never seen and now we don't have an RPG.  That is your logic.  Not specious, fallacious or otherwise dependent on premises that are non-sensible.  Flexibility and choice are the hallmark of RPGs and when you strip that away you are left with something that is not an RPG.

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I hate it when RPG are being restricted to 4-5 skills (It generally goes with the fact that in those games, buffs or long-cooldown skills are inexistant). Crowfall doing that would mean that I immediatly drop it. 

 

What I would like to see, it's a classic default hotbar with something like 10 slots, and additional hotbars that we can switch on/off and put where we want them to be.

 

Someone don't like having too much skills on screen ? Let him have only one hotbar!

Someone want to have most of the social skill onscreen (like in FF or Archeage) ? let him put them in additional hotbars!

In Age of conan, I would have hotbars full of buff/consumables and long cd skills. It didn't bother me at all because it is the kind of thing you can trigger with the mouse without problem.

 

Why restrict one group of people for the advantage of conforting another when you could please both by letting them choose what they want ?

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