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TullyAckland

04/09/15 - Skill Training Faq + Behind The Scenes With The Artists!

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Any method which I have to actively input effort to raise my level is superior to being handed it for free. At the very, very least I would hope that I could at least train using active input as well as passive, but to remove that option too; that's cruel to me. I've no way to appreciate my character's skill because it is given to me.

 

I rather earn money than be given it because a gift has far less value to me. 

 

 

 

I don't want the focus to be PvP, I want the focus to be an all encompassing game. So, PvP is important, PvE is important, crafting is important, and even social elements like taverns, music, roleplaying and character development, should all be equally as critical.

 

I want a world, not just another arena game, I've played too many of those. 

 

If you use the skills as you train them up, you get better at playing the character and get a feel for the abilities of toons who are where you once were.

In short, you'll be a better player for it. 

 

That tendency doesn't change whether you level up other ways or not.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I personally love passive skill gain, glad to see the Devs have not changed their mind.

 

I'm glad to hear we will be able to queue up skills so we don't have any downtime between skill training.  The primary, secondary, tertiary queues also add some very nice flexibility in terms of commitment.

 

I will most likely use the Primary for one skill all the time while dedicating the other two to minor skills.

It seems likely to me that you will have to log in and reset the passive skill training timer each time that skill is trained to a new level.

 

So that means downtime on your skill training, but sometimes you will just pop in, reset timers on all your toons and go do that voodoo you do so often. 

 

 

What if I hit a skill max, and I am not able to get online?

No problem! You can queue-up additional skills to train. 

-Thomas (Blixtev) Blair

So, if I can do that, surely I won't have to jump around resetting training timers so much. Thanks for keeping that grind off our backs, ACE!

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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There could be a skill point cap, but I'm guessing not since they are using passive skilling. There are no skill point caps in Eve that I am aware of. 

 

But you are still missing the point that each character will not have, can not have, every skill in the game. There could be 100 skills in the game and each character has about 20 of them. Even if you max them all out, you are still going to be very different from someone else who maybe has 10 of the same skills you do and 10 that you don't because he chose different disciplines.

Hard Skill cap confirmed. But it's a different cap, depending on how you build your toon.

 

Ok, I get it, Nehemia. You mean a maximum number of skill points available to the toon.

I wonder if people would take runes like Military training, which raises some skill maxima but not the max number of skill points possible or starting, if there is a total skill point cap? 

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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We have been talking about the "new" player problem for many, many months now. (As an aside I find it interesting how this problem doesn't gain much traction in level based games, either because it's accepted new players will die in 1 hit and it's their fault for not leveling up as fast as possible, or they are placed into level bracketed battlegrounds where low and behold they get 1 hit killed from people with twinked out characters. Anyways...) We equate the problem to an Easter Egg hunt, where all the kids are let loose at the same time.(terrible idea) Inevitably the youngest kids get stepped on by the 5-8 year olds and the only thing preventing the 10 years olds from pushing over all the other kids and taking all the eggs is their parents are parents watching.

 

Because we have a skill based game we can't let the kids go after the eggs in waves. We also don't have parents watching. So we need to give the toddlers some help. We have some ideas what we can do and will play with them when we get to that phase of testing if the base package isn't enough.
 

A toddler in Crowfall does have a lot going for them. We have a goal of a flattish power curve, so they shouldn't get 1 shot by an older player. Most classes have some form of active Block, Dodge, or an attack with an iframe in it. Toddlers should start with a full kit of powers (not an empty tray). Hopefully they can contribute quickly. Action combat elements tend to help and hinder all equally. (It's pretty common to see max level people not knowing how to use iframe attacks and blocks)


I've seen a few comments on customization and skill caps.  Through a mix of advantages, archetype, promotion, disciplines a character will have their skill caps. See the Centaur Polearm example. I'm hoping we have tons of advantages, several promotions, and lots of disciplines when we finish building. This means within an archetype we should see lots of variety. Because the campaigns require so many different activities, going "full damage" in all disciplines may be a poor choice if your team falls behind in the resource/materials race for equipment and structure protection and you were "that guy" who wouldn't give up a discipline slot for a gathering discipline.  It might be useful if you ambush another team who is out gathering, but you can't rely on that and the walls need materials now! 

 

Hope it helps to see what we are thinking!
 


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

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I think I reached the conclusion that Crowfall is not the MMORPG of my dreams.

 

However, with that said, I do think it has a lot of innovative ideas, and I also think I will play it and enjoy it for what it is, a casual hardcore MMOARENA. 

 

It's more pizza than it is meat and potatoes. Obviously both are good, but I'm more looking forward to an MMORPG that has the meat and potatoes aspect to it. A real, gritty, difficult, pain in the butt kind of MMORPG with utterly insane long-term focused active character development, no hard skill cap, in-depth crafting system, all the bells and whistles of hardcore PvP without focusing the majority of the game on hardcore PvP. 

 

If it seems like I am trying too hard to change Crowfall, I probably am. But honestly, I am desperate for this kind of MMORPG, and there's just nothing remotely like what I want on the Horizon. It's kind of depressing. 

 

Anyhow, I guess we'll just see how the skills will work out here in Crowfall. At least they didn't make the passive training too quick (from what we know now).


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Hope it helps to see what we are thinking!

 

You must have maxed out speechcraft & politics, as you just completely managed to elude the question of hardcaps whilst giving out what you think. Can we maximize every skill line available, or do we have limited number of skill points to allocate (well, like Shadowbane did) so we cannot maximize every skill line available for our character to become a jack of all trades. Do understand that for many of us, this is extremely important matter when considering characters in CF, and would like to know the answer as soon as possible.

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Is there active training, too?  

Yes, you can advance a skill through use -- but only to get proficiency.  Passive training is the primary way of advancing your character's skills.

Please for the love of god, do NOT punish people who want to play all the time. From what I understand about this, it seems like the passive training will be better than active training, which means that there comes a point where you're "forced" to log off and stay offline if you want to stay competitive.

 

That's not what a game should do. Archeage sort of did the same, but in the opposite direction, where it forced you to be online to gain faster labor points and it was complete hell. I am sure that the opposite in Crowfall will be just as bad.

 

Please rethink this system. No game should ever promote going offline over actually playing the game. It's the completely opposite of what a game should be. There must be some kind of way to make both active and passive training be on a similar level, with maybe active being like 5-10% better/faster.

Edited by macavity

7ug90hM.png


 


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Please for the love of god, do NOT punish people who want to play all the time. From what I understand about this, it seems like the passive training will be better than active training, which means that there comes a point where you're "forced" to log off and stay offline if you want to stay competitive.

 

That's not what a game should do. Archeage sort of did the same, but in the opposite direction, where it forced you to be online to gain faster labor points and it was complete hell. I am sure that the opposite in Crowfall will be just as bad.

 

It has nothing to do with being logged off. You gain skills as you play and offline. You are better off playing more because you will get more skilled at the game.


High Fives and Good Times

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Please for the love of god, do NOT punish people who want to play all the time. From what I understand about this, it seems like the passive training will be better than active training, which means that there comes a point where you're "forced" to log off and stay offline if you want to stay competitive.

 

That's not what a game should do. Archeage sort of did the same, but in the opposite direction, where it forced you to be online to gain faster labor points and it was complete hell. I am sure that the opposite in Crowfall will be just as bad.

 

Please rethink this system. No game should ever promote going offline over actually playing the game. It's the completely opposite of what a game should be. There must be some kind of way to make both active and passive training be on a similar level, with maybe active being like 5-10% better/faster.

 

Passive does not mean offline - Passive means you gain it through time. Online and offline at the same speed.

 

It's not rested XP. 


Tully Ackland

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc. 

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

[Rules of Conduct]

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It has nothing to do with being logged off. You gain skills as you play and offline. You are better off playing more because you will get more skilled at the game.

 

Passive does not mean offline - Passive means you gain it through time. Online and offline at the same speed.

 

It's not rested XP. 

My bad, I completely misunderstood it. I don't know why I thought it was only offline. Crisis averted.


7ug90hM.png


 


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A toddler in Crowfall does have a lot going for them. We have a goal of a flattish power curve, so they shouldn't get 1 shot by an older player. Most classes have some form of active Block, Dodge, or an attack with an iframe in it. Toddlers should start with a full kit of powers (not an empty tray). Hopefully they can contribute quickly. Action combat elements tend to help and hinder all equally. (It's pretty common to see max level people not knowing how to use iframe attacks and blocks)

 

Oh my glob, please tell me you've seen some of EnMasse Entertainments twitch streams where they have Minea play Tera.  It's painful to watch.  It is so damn painful :lol:  Adorable, but painful...

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Love the balance of actively training a skill to get started, but then passively training to mastery. So much better than grinding endlessly!

 

Thumbs up!

Edited by Arcturus

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We have been talking about the "new" player problem for many, many months now. (As an aside I find it interesting how this problem doesn't gain much traction in level based games, either because it's accepted new players will die in 1 hit and it's their fault for not leveling up as fast as possible, or they are placed into level bracketed battlegrounds where low and behold they get 1 hit killed from people with twinked out characters. Anyways...)

 

 

 

Thats interesting since both are exactly the same from a new player viewpoint. Both are equally bad and I am dissappointed that Crowfall didn't decide to buck this trend. Old school pen and paper RPGs set the trend where there had to be some form of vertical power advancement and computer games followed. When PvP games started being more common noone seems to have stepped back and thought about what it was for and how that fit into PvP.

 

In a PvE game that tries to be like a novel power increases fuel the hero's journey arc. The environment is designed to level up in lock step with the players. Once you move to PvP you now have protagonists in the story working against each other. Vertical advancement for players is not at the same rate because there is no longer an author/dungeon master/game designer forcing it to be.

 

Throwing missmatched vertical advancement into the mix shifts the game away from pure PvP and adds an element of Character vs Character. It is inevitable and IMO undesirable. Unfortunately it is also pretty unavoidable these days and I didn't expect Crowfall would be any different. Leveling and skill progression are both operant conditioning techniques that are essentially designed to addict players to the game. At this stage gamers are so addicted to this trope that games without it are on the backfoot.

 

So with that in mind I'm looking for Crowfall to deliver as little vertical advancement as possible. Instead add horizontal options that people can learn. At the moment we haven't got enough information about the vertical parts that this skill system brings to know how I feel about it. Is the difference between 100% and 200% literally double damage/attackspeed etc? How many starting characters can a maxed out veteran beat assuming equal player skill?

 

 

Toddlers should start with a full kit of powers (not an empty tray). Hopefully they can contribute quickly.

 

This is especially hopeful. As long as you can get to usable levels of skill in those abilities very fast it should be a viable compromise between PvP design purity and the need to put Skinner Boxes into games for economic reasons.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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You must have maxed out speechcraft & politics, as you just completely managed to elude the question of hardcaps whilst giving out what you think. Can we maximize every skill line available, or do we have limited number of skill points to allocate (well, like Shadowbane did) so we cannot maximize every skill line available for our character to become a jack of all trades. Do understand that for many of us, this is extremely important matter when considering characters in CF, and would like to know the answer as soon as possible.

Again: This is a non-issue. While you might be able to eventually max out EVERY SINGLE skill available in the game (how rediculously long that alone even may take) you won't ever be able to apply them all at once nor will your theoretical max make you a carbon copy of the char right next due to archetype etc. influencing your capabilities.

This is not a level-based game. There is no END-game, no real maxlevel (because of the flat power level and fluctuation in equipment and active skills). Thus there is no chance everyone will run around with the same skillset especially since this game features an extended trinity.

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Again: This is a non-issue. While you might be able to eventually max out EVERY SINGLE skill available in the game (how rediculously long that alone even may take) you won't ever be able to apply them all at once nor will your theoretical max make you a carbon copy of the char right next due to archetype etc. influencing your capabilities.

This is not a level-based game. There is no END-game, no real maxlevel (because of the flat power level and fluctuation in equipment and active skills). Thus there is no chance everyone will run around with the same skillset especially since this game features an extended trinity.

 

So you don't see a difference with this:

 

Nehemia's Ranger [HARDCAPPED]

 

Bow 145/145 GOLD

Archery 110/120

Light Armor 50/120

Running 150/150 GOLD

Sword 15/80

Arrow to the Knee 100/100 GM

Thread the Needle 25/100 JM

 

Bounty Hunter 100/100 GOLD

Tracking 40/100 

Trailbrazer 10/100

 

to:

 

Nehemia's Ranger [No hardcap]

 

Bow 145/145 

Archery 120/120

Light Armor 120/120

Running 150/150 

Sword 80/80

Arrow to the Knee 100/100 

Thread the Needle 100/100 

 

Bounty Hunter 100/100 

Tracking 100/100 

Trailbrazer 100/100

 

Non-issue? I want difference between the characters, I don't want every Knight Sentinel to possess same abilities in the end (Let's face it, eventually everything will be maxed out). I want distinct character differences and actual character customization, as RPGs should have.

 

If you don't see it, don't claim its a non-issue for players who actually care about theory crafting, character building and having unique character builds.

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Why care so much about the lvl of the skill If everybody has the same lvling rate?

 

why care so much if you have everything maxed out in first month? if your oponents are in the same boat as you

 

 

I just want some good combat mechanics and the fun will be there (plus all the siege, caravans and open world <3) afterall it's a pvp game.


2whf87a.jpg

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Non-issue? I want difference between the characters, I don't want every Knight Sentinel to possess same abilities in the end (Let's face it, eventually everything will be maxed out). I want distinct character differences and actual character customization, as RPGs should have.

 

If you don't see it, don't claim its a non-issue for players who actually care about theory crafting, character building and having unique character builds.

Nehemia, I think your theory crafting and character building could still be had with no hard cap.  It has been expressed a few times that you will not be able to actively make use of every skill you obtain at the same time.  There will be "optimal builds" that are skill set dependant with plenty of theory crafting behind them.


[@--(o.O)@]

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Thanks for the explanation ThomasB.

 

I know that for some, it's a bitter pill to swallow, not being able to one hit kill the toddlers ... and somehow I kinda envisaged that the ACE team had taken this into account, particularly when I saw that the "trinity" was not going to be part of the game play.

 

It will give everyone an opportunity of playing a game style in PvP, that will suit them. Therefore, allowing a wider variety of people to actually enjoy the PvP experience.


288mqgz.png

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We have been talking about the "new" player problem for many, many months now. (As an aside I find it interesting how this problem doesn't gain much traction in level based games, either because it's accepted new players will die in 1 hit and it's their fault for not leveling up as fast as possible, or they are placed into level bracketed battlegrounds where low and behold they get 1 hit killed from people with twinked out characters. Anyways...) 

 

New players always will and, more importantly, always SHOULD be at a disadvantage or being a veteran has no meaning.

Even in games where starting players and veterans have the same resources (DotA, Starcraft, FPS..), new players are trampled.

The solution is not to be the noob guardian angel as a company.

Being weak and growing stronger has a good taste after all.

New players shouldn't be one-shot or they'll never learn.

They also shouldn't be even 10% likely to win a fair fight with a veteran.

Edited by satyros

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