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doc gonzo

Crowdsourcing A Suggestion: Campaign Ideas...

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I do like the fight the hunger campaign idea. I think it'll prolly happen early in testing. I will try to keep thinking about more PvP oriented ones that are difficult either because they are murky or so crystal clear as to be exploitable.

 

I, personally, would love campaigns on the Shadows where guilds get different win conditions. I'd love to keep a secret and execute plans and react to guesses as to what others are plotting. Coincidentally, this is one of my favorite ways to play risk.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I don't know if that would work on the Shadow Worlds due to their being too many entities to assign conditions to, but I think it would be very suitable to the 3-Faction campaigns in God's Reach or even the God War in the Infected worlds. Definitely something they should test or try at the very least.

 

I do like the fight the hunger campaign idea. I think it'll prolly happen early in testing. I will try to keep thinking about more PvP oriented ones that are difficult either because they are murky or so crystal clear as to be exploitable.

I, personally, would love campaigns on the Shadows where guilds get different win conditions. I'd love to keep a secret and execute plans and react to guesses as to what others are plotting. Coincidentally, this is one of my favorite ways to play risk.

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ok so since i also started thinking and debating on the issue of the EK.

 

what i expect of a sandbox conquer PvP,revolving around crafting is to enable the development of a society,driven by individual,selfish motivations.

as society that will adapt to player-caused changes constantly.

basically civilization-simulator xD

 

and if we look back at shadow bane and titles like it,we see good approaches,but in the end the problem is that a stalemate takes place,not necessarily a stalemate of business,but a stalemate of power.

 

like one organization has established a hegemony,which isn't destroyable any more.

thats why CF came up with the idea of dying world,and those are intended to be the core gameplay,the EK is intended to only serve as playground to let your creativity loose and show off^^

 

but i still want to make an attempt to proof the devs wrong or at least propose some ideas that may help them to figure a way out to actually prevent a stalemate from occurring eventually.

so it allows the DEVs to turn the EK into something that has meaning,something that is driven by the same forces that apply to the dying worlds,with the only difference of the EK being eternal

 

for my following arguments i make use of the presented vassal/liege system.

 

 

Ways to prevent uncle bob:

 

when we look at history we can see hegemonies crumbling all the time because of ''imperial exhaustion''.

but that term is rather simplifying and the phenomenon is rooted in a lot of problems occurring to hegemonies.

so i'll try to lay out some possible ways to stimulate the occurrence of this phenomena to our game hegemony.

 

1)organization

 The administrative effort to govern territories has to be immense,even if it is ''only'' one city.

in fact 1 city and the region it is located in,should be the maximum of what is manageable for 1 person.

so if i rule over 5 cities and their related regions,ill have to delegate the governance of 4 cities to some vassals(counts)

and if i rule over even more cities and territories,i'll be in need of dukes,to govern over some counts,so i don't have to care and worry about 100 different counts,but instead just order a handful of dukes,which then delegate it to their count rank vassals.

and don't get me wrong,1 guys shouldn't be able to take care of everything that has to be done as ruler of a city,no he will be in need of people he can delegate all kinds of different tasks to.(council)

and the council member will probably hire normal citizens to do certain tasks.

this bureaucratic chain has the seed of corruption and inefficiency planted planted deep within.

 

2)environmental stressors

 Constant outer threats play a key role in exhausting the resources(animated and inanimate) and thus weakening a hegemony.

Well under ideal circumstances there will be opposing player communities that pose threats and drains a powerful nations resources.

But after all the uncle bob scenario is what it is,because there are no opposing forces,since they have no chance.

so we need outer threats others than players.

i would suggest randomly occurring events,like a NPC army invading the lands,or natural disaster,which wipe whole cities off the map.

Now of cours ethese events could also hit the weak oppressed communities,but since a hegemony is bound to control most of the world,the chances are high that it will hit the hegemony,rather than those small fries,which only rule over a valley and some village^^

 

3)strive for power and influence

 We have to plant the seed of betrayal in the vassal-liege relationship,on which the whole organization of the empire is built.

becoming a king or if there is an alliance of several kingdoms,being the king of kings,has to be a most desirable thing,because it is heavily rewarded in some form.

any count should be motivated to become duke and every duke should be motivated to become king.

the motivation for being an independent ruler or a higher rank has to be strong,to sow discontent in alliances and big empires.

 

4)strengths and weaknesses

 this point is really important,its related to resources,crafting,heck it basically is important for every aspect of the game.

that is the topic of Pros and Cons.

it sounds rather abstract if i say it like that,so here an example of what i mean.

lets say the backbone of our nations economy is the processing of top tier iron.

so a major part of our income is generated through that business branch and of course our armies equipment is also focused on iron.

but top tier iron doenst mean that it is the best metal overall,it only is the best iron ore.

equipment can still be crafted out of top tier copper or whatever.

each metal/alloy and the products they are made out of should have their unique advantages and disadvantages(durability,flexibility,effectivity and inneffectivity against other types of equipment)

and this concept shoudlnt only apply to resources and equipment made out of them,but to every aspect of the game.

if everything got its strong and weak points,then this allows players to make use of their competitors weaknesses with their own strengths.

 

so to counter their weakness,we would use a resource and equipment which is effective against their main resource/equipment.

we would also try to cut supply routes from their iron mines.

 

5) internal instability

 

a.

and lastly and this is not a point that stands on its own,but is rather fuel for the fire,to worsen the situation even more.

criminal activities and with criminal activities i mean everything that is damaging the economy of a region and thus weakens the governing bodies ability to fight and take care of inner instability.

thus inviting even more criminals,which in turn motivates inhabitants to leave these cities,which in turn cripples the economy even more and so on and so forth

 

b.

another part of internal instability is discontent of the citizens and peasants.

those people may have no rank within the governing body,but they are most probably the majority of a cities population and without them the city wouldn't be a city,without them doing their jobs the governing body is crippled.

because the governing body can't do every business,that is needed to keep the clockwork,that is their nation going.

your city needs to be a place with opportunities and advantages that are desirable for all kinds of players,so they move to your city and do business there out of their own free will.

but if that mechanism of free market isn't working to your favor anymore,because your city lost those prior existing advantages and opportunities,then people will either become discontent and eventually revolt,or they move into an independent city,where becoming wealthy and living good,is more likely.

how would i imagine such a revolt,well basically 2 ways.

one way is peaceful resistance,just doing no work at all,everyone just does the basic effort too sustain themselves daily,but not more.

that will bring their economy to a standstill and if their economy isn't running there war machinery can't run either,noting can run,if the engine(economy) isn't working.

the other way is to resort to violence.

the government will probably have pro combatants in their ranks,but if they can't even afford the payment of the law enforcers anymore(because no taxes and income can be generated),the peasants will probably have the law enforcers on their side,in addition to the peasants sheer number.

 

example:

 

lets assume one big guild or a alliance of more than one guild,has established a hegemony on the EK.

their war machinery is efficient and well equipped and supplied.

but they are very dependent on a few resources for their equipment.

 

now as their opponent we take a look at these resources and the products made out of them,we will see the strength but also the weakness of their equipment,so we will adapt and make use of that weakness.

But still our enemy got sheer numbers and even if we adapt,they can also adapt in turn.

 

But still we manage to win some small battles(favorable rob them of territory that they would really need in this war)

And now they also get attacked by some mob army or some other kind of random event,maybe a natural disaster destroying or atleast heavily damaging their economic center.

 

But even then they prevail,but they are very weakened,maybe not enough for us to beat them in the end,but their omnipotence is still crumbling.

furthermore their war potential is constantly weakened by their internal power struggles between the countless vassals,

And this steers the ambitions of people within their own ranks.

allied states stabbing their knife in their back,because they see the opportunity arise to become independent and more powerful.

or vassal raising their arms in rebellion to dispose of their liege.

 

and in addition such weakened nations also have to be concerned about organized crime,since that kind of environment(low budget and low manpower for law enforcement) invites criminals,thus weakening a crumbling hegemony even more

 

also the rising criminality makes those cities a bad place for businesses,so people may start to revolt and completely halt their war machinery.

now they an uncountable amount of gears,that were necessary to keep everything going aren't working anymore,crippling the economy and war machinery throughout  all stages of the value-added chain.

 

conclusion:

 

so with this i think it would be possible for a hegemony to face a spiral of decay,that isn't easy stopable because all these factors are worsening each other over and over again until nothing is left.

 

i would suspect that an outer enemy isn't even needed in that formula,because incompetence in state affairs and corruption is enough to get that circle slowly going until it is to late to just easily counter that development.

 

but if there is an opposing force,that force can make use of this and easily beat down a hegemony.

 

basically the goal of this propositions is to simulate a circular development of powers and instead of a linear development

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I don't know if that would work on the Shadow Worlds due to their being too many entities to assign conditions to, but I think it would be very suitable to the 3-Faction campaigns in God's Reach or even the God War in the Infected worlds. Definitely something they should test or try at the very least.

I was actually imagining some overlap where guilds might discover they are aligned, but not fully, and work together. It would also help to break up zergs that wind up with opposing guild missions. I just love the idea of a tight knit guild staying very quiet, recognizing and manipulating guilds with similar goals, betraying them at the critical time, and winning. Great anti-zergs.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I definitely agree, that is a fantastic dynamic with guilds and area where smaller ones can contribute and excel, I just don't think that requires guild-unique win conditions - it didn't in Shadowbane - and that those types of conditions would be highly problematic in terms of coding and balance with the number of guilds you are talking about.

 

That said, I'm going to disagree with myself a bit by saying that I can envision a mechanic that could work. For example, on a GvG Campaign World, where a Guild at the start of the campaign must select say 3 from a list of 10 win conditions, with the first to achieve all 3 the one who wins. Perhaps have an additional condition be applied to all guilds as a balance and metering mechanism.

 

Something like:

 

-Win Conditions-

 

Required: Control at least 51% of the world's territory

 

Select 3 from the following options:

 

  • Stockpile 10000 units of Wood, Stone and Ore
  • Collect and keep possession of 100 Bloodstones
  • Kill 10000 enemies (kills, not unique players)
  • Build 3 Monuments
  • Raze 25 enemy holdings (won sieges)
  • Recover 10 Divine Weapons
  • Acquire 50 Allies
  • Collect 5000 human skulls
  • Build an army 1000 strong
  • As Guild Leader, kill 25 other Guild leaders, before dying once

 

I would engineer it so that the various 'categories' of playstyle - political, conquest, mercantile etc - have 2 options in their wheelhouse, but have those options be limited, forcing them to pick at least 1 outside their wheelhouse, with the mandatory condition as your overall control tool. Something like this would add a good deal of strategy to a campaign, and I think, might be do-able.

 

I was actually imagining some overlap where guilds might discover they are aligned, but not fully, and work together. It would also help to break up zergs that wind up with opposing guild missions. I just love the idea of a tight knit guild staying very quiet, recognizing and manipulating guilds with similar goals, betraying them at the critical time, and winning. Great anti-zergs.

Edited by Anthrage

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Good discussion guys!

 

If you went with the Doom Counter (which I think is the best one so far), then that could innately tie into the seasons too.

 

0-2 : Spring

3-5 : Summer

6-8 : Autumn

9-10 : Winter

11 : Game Over

 

You can modify this easily by stretching or condensing seasons. Want a long autumn? Fine, add more "counters" to it. 

 

As to rewards, tie that to hours active on a sliding scale, done by percentage.

Top 5% most active = 80%

6-39% most active = 50%

40-80% most active = 25%

81-100 = 5%

 

One downside though, is you could get a lot of AFKers racking up the hours... so maybe it should be done by hours ALIVE, with hours DEAD actually counting against your score (ie, afk and die over night, and you're down 8 hours)? Bearing in mind that if you just sit AFK in the city, you're not getting stuff into your Embargo anyway, so even if you are reaching the higher echelons you still can't send much through. 

Players already tend to get much more rewards banked by spending more time in the game acquiring them. That's plenty of penalty for casual, but loyal players.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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