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guarrand

Telegraphs... Why Are People Against Them?

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I have but one concern using any type of action based combat. I have played every major mmo since UO and have noticed a trend in every action combat system of player targets not being where they appear to be on your screen. The satisfaction of actually landing a strike on your target in pvp is lost when you have to attack where the target "actually" is and not where they appear to be. This problem is magnified when playing a character that has positional requirements for attacks.

 

I have heard many promises about fixing this in other games and have been nothing but dissapointed. I hope crowfall considers this a priority and doesn't settle for "almost" like everyone else.

Edited by geo

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Okay, just spent the last 5 hours playing Tera. I played a Warrior as I thought it was most similar to Wildstar's Stalker and Teoh's video looked somewhat good.

 

The combat animation lock was incredibly annoying. Also the mob animation lock... I dont know how to describe it. It was slow and clunky. It would take 3-5 seconds for its ability animation to cast then the mob would slowly turn around on me. The IA was just incredibly dumb.

 

The two main abilities were bound to left and right mouse buttons. Maybe because I've been playing with right click mouse look since 1998 with EQ 1 but I just couldn't get into it. Every minute I played, I missed Wildstar a little more

 

Anyway, super disappointing that Crowfall is looking at Tera for their model. But what ya going do? Least I got Wildstar.

 

I'm not saying Tera is bad. It very well could be fun for some people. It however is not for me

 

Didn't you make the argument like 3 pages back that people don't enjoy wildstar because they don't give it a chance? Hypocritical yeah?

Edited by vunak

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Asians like that kind of stuff. Don't be a hater.

Not a hater.

I personally found therm somewhat cute.

As long as the outfits were "normaL". Just another cutesy class, like from Finalfantasy and Co.

 

But between cutely dressed up and dominatrix outfit.

Is a world on it's own.

 

Was enough for me, when someone linked me to a fashion walk video of that kind.

It seems to be easy made money for Terra publishers altough. I can enviosn some fellas spending a good amount of money on cosmetic stuff .

 

--

I'm a vivid fan of the anime/ manga pop culture.

But i still can't understand whats going on in the minds of a good batch of people.

I'm rather tolerant and open minded about alot of things.

But that is simply gross.

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I have but one concern using any type of action based combat. I have played every major mmo since UO and have noticed a trend in every action combat system of player targets not being where they appear to be on your screen. The satisfaction of actually landing a strike on your target in pvp is lost when you have to attack where the target "actually" is and not where they appear to be. This problem is magnified when playing a character that has positional requirements for attacks.

 

I have heard many promises about fixing this in other games and have been nothing but dissapointed. I hope crowfall considers this a priority and doesn't settle for "almost" like everyone else.

Agreed, This will be especially critical in an MMO focused on PvP. If they can't find a way to properly compensate for lag then the action combat(and the game) is sunk from the beginning.

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OK hold up hold up..

 

You people idolizing TERA... .. i just checked it out and yoiu are seriously considering THIS as reference for CF??

tera_castanics_archer_by_tsuyokizu-d51aw

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA...

omg... you lost all credibility sorry... i didnt know this forum had so many horny 12 year olds :D

 

I'll just take my leave from my own thread now.. it was funny.. thanks.

 

Im confused what part of this screenshot shows the combat mechanics?


 

Rage Quit

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Asians like that kind of stuff. Don't be a hater.

 

 

Asian, don't like that poorly made socks.

 

 

Didn't you make the argument like 3 pages back that people don't enjoy wildstar because they don't give it a chance? Hypocritical yeah?

 

People who've played mostly non-locked games have a very hard time transitioning to animation lock so it's not like I completely can't understand his stance. The playstyle is completely different. That being said I still support animation locks 100%.

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Hey! 

 

So as we've said in interviews, livestreams and even on these forums multiple times over: We are doing a lot of research and development with our combat system. There will be significant changes, but the goal remains the same = Action, skill based combat. 

 

Things like telegraphs were an early experiment we were toying with. It might be that they never see the light of day as there are elements about them we aren't fond of. They also do not jive well with certain aspects of the game that we are striving for. 

 

We've thrown the name "TERA" out there as a point of reference but that doesn't mean we are going to copy the combat exactly. That would be bad for a multitude of reasons, but there are good lessons by observing that title and is more aligned with the direction we want to go, instead of Wildstar. 

 

Also, you need to start looking at aspects of games in a vacuum. Not EVERYTHING in a game has to be tarred with the same brush. There are bad games with great systems, and amazing games with bad systems.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

OK hold up hold up..

 

You people idolizing TERA... .. i just checked it out and yoiu are seriously considering THIS as reference for CF??

tera_castanics_archer_by_tsuyokizu-d51aw

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA...

omg... you lost all credibility sorry... i didnt know this forum had so many horny 12 year olds  :D

 

I'll just take my leave from my own thread now.. it was funny.. thanks.

Got to admit it would take some skill for me to try and fight properly while starring at half a bottom constantly  :ph34r:

Edited by Krethys

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Wildstar PVP was terrible because telegraphs were overused. It was a huge mess !  But Free Aiming and AOE favor this. A simple example: telegraphs for basic attacks. Just with this the player's screen is polluted almost all the time !

 

Those who have played Wildstar know how bad telegraphs are in a multiplayer scenario. But in my opinion, telegraphs were not the only thing that made Wildstar's gameplay chaotic. I see at least three other things: button spamming, an inexistant synergy between spells and, and terrible game design choices about CD, amount of spells etc.

 

Telegraphs are useless if spells fx are correctly done.

Edited by outlawing

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Wildstar PVP was terrible because telegraphs were overused. It was a huge mess !  But Free Aiming and AOE favor this. A simple example: telegraphs for basic attacks. Just with this the player's screen is polluted almost all the time !

 

Those who have played Wildstar know how bad telegraphs are in a multiplayer scenario. But in my opinion, telegraphs were not the only thing that made Wildstar's gameplay chaotic. I see at least three other things: button spamming, an inexistant synergy between spells and, and terrible game design choices about CD, amount of spells etc.

 

Telegraphs are useless if spells fx are correctly done.

I played wildstar and telegraphs did not annoy me as much as you claim. The thing turned me away was generic mmo questing and button spam.

But i would prefer no telegraphs.

 

In terms of Synergy, some classes had it, some did not. For example esper had some synergy while stalker totally lacked it.

Edited by Eren

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Wildstar PVP was terrible because telegraphs were overused. It was a huge mess ! But Free Aiming and AOE favor this. A simple example: telegraphs for basic attacks. Just with this the player's screen is polluted almost all the time !

 

Those who have played Wildstar know how bad telegraphs are in a multiplayer scenario. But in my opinion, telegraphs were not the only thing that made Wildstar's gameplay chaotic. I see at least three other things: button spamming, an inexistant synergy between spells and, and terrible game design choices about CD, amount of spells etc.

 

Telegraphs are useless if spells fx are correctly done.

Telegraphs and spell fx are exactly the same thing. Difference is you'll need a super computer once you get 40v40.


 7d4g0V5.png

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this bit...and other parts in the post also talking about breaking animations early...bother me in a concerned way....

 

here's the Thing...if they are using the animations to set Timing for the purposes of an Abilities overall parameters, and then there's ways to get around that...it's what i tend to think of as an Exploit, in the "unintended consequences" category...

 

not good, imo

 

if it's a fully intended mechanic...then fine, no worries... (like the dodge and other moves the post mentions, where the ability is designed to break the animation deliberately)

 

but if something is built to take those animation durations into effect...which it seems Tera intended, and then it's just that easy to get around....

 

well...let's just say i don't think that's good Quality, and worry about the same in other areas

 

still not made up my mind about trying it...but while Deioth's post was insightful and informative....and the screen shots look kewl...

 

i'm not feeling too happy about my stated "flaw"

 

 

Just wanted to point out a few things here. After the statements that the combat in Crowfall would likely be similar to Tera, I jumped in and explored the game some.

 

The ability to cancel animation in Tera is a little more nuanced than I think you may be seeing. You have a very brief time period where you can back out of an attack without any drawbacks (the skill simply doesn't get used). If you wait too long into the animation, even though your skill doesn't fire, you're stuck with a cooldown on that skill. Powerful skills tend to have longer cooldowns, so being unable to actually cast that attack because you backed out is a major drawback when you need to pour on DPS.

 

You can incur the cooldown drawback if an opponent causes your animation to cancel at the correct time also - by stunning you or knocking you down at just the right moment.

 

There's a risk/reward aspect at play every time you commit to an attack with a long animation lock, and there's only a very short time for you to change your mind about it. There ends up being some interesting layers there, because of that relationship.

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Didn't you make the argument like 3 pages back that people don't enjoy wildstar because they don't give it a chance? Hypocritical yeah?

 

Yea I saw the hypocrisy... The issue for me was going from complete freedom of movement to restricted movement with a completely different set of controls which standard North American titles have been using since 1998. (No right click mouse look, no A and D strafing, left and right mouse click main abilities)

 

Its like going from Final Fantasy 7 to Final Fantasy 1. Feels like a huge step backwards.

 

Its unfortunate because every indication was Crowfall was going for Wildstar's combat system, which I believe is the next step in evolution for the Action combat MMORPG genre. The entire combat FAQ page points toward Wildstar's combat system and the early in game footage made heavy use of AoEs for abilities (No tab targeting) and telegraphs. There was sprinting, double jumps and dashes as well. I really thought they were going to take the best of Wildstar and improve upon it. I was so excited I dropped 500 dollars for the KS.

 

Then the backlash happened here on the forums and now it appears Crowfall is going a step backwards with a sub standard system simply to appeal to a few hundred very vocal TERA fans that many of whom have never experienced Wildstar's combat. The walk back from the Dev was amazing to see in the last Crowns and Crows interview. It was like he was afraid.

 

I'm trying to keep an open mind though and acknowledge that while ACE is looking to Tera for their combat system,  they are obviously going to improve upon it over the next couple years. I'll definitely give Crowfall time and wait to see just how it turns out. At the end of the day, if Crowfall's combat is too restrictive, I can always go back to Wildstar

Edited by Evade2015

 7d4g0V5.png

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Just wanted to point out a few things here. After the statements that the combat in Crowfall would likely be similar to Tera, I jumped in and explored the game some.

 

The ability to cancel animation in Tera is a little more nuanced than I think you may be seeing. You have a very brief time period where you can back out of an attack without any drawbacks (the skill simply doesn't get used). If you wait too long into the animation, even though your skill doesn't fire, you're stuck with a cooldown on that skill. Powerful skills tend to have longer cooldowns, so being unable to actually cast that attack because you backed out is a major drawback when you need to pour on DPS.

 

You can incur the cooldown drawback if an opponent causes your animation to cancel at the correct time also - by stunning you or knocking you down at just the right moment.

 

There's a risk/reward aspect at play every time you commit to an attack with a long animation lock, and there's only a very short time for you to change your mind about it. There ends up being some interesting layers there, because of that relationship.

 

Very good points. There's also a point near the end of the animation where you simply can't cancel it at all (as Deioth mentioned), although it's a bit tricky with certain skills, so sometimes you may think you're going to be ok and you try that last minute dodge, until you're forced to go through with it and find yourself slept or whatever else, because you weren't paying attention and got stuck in an animation making you vulnerable. And it also brings up situations where for one reason or another you have to use a certain skill and go through with the full animation, even though you know you're putting yourself in danger by doing so, so it's really a decision between what's the least bad outcome and go with it (do I cast it and potentially have X happen to me, or do I avoid it and have Y happen instead). It definitely creates a lot of interesting, skill-based decisions in combat that you just don't have in other games.

Edited by leiloni

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OK hold up hold up..

 

You people idolizing TERA... .. i just checked it out and yoiu are seriously considering THIS as reference for CF??

tera_castanics_archer_by_tsuyokizu-d51aw

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA...

omg... you lost all credibility sorry... i didnt know this forum had so many horny 12 year olds :D

 

I'll just take my leave from my own thread now.. it was funny.. thanks.

 

 

 

wins every time...

 

female_armor_rhetoric_bingo__pdf__by_ozz

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I played wildstar and telegraphs did not annoy me as much as you claim. The thing turned me away was generic mmo questing and button spam.

But i would prefer no telegraphs.

 

In terms of Synergy, some classes had it, some did not. For example esper had some synergy while stalker totally lacked it.

 

Ah, you never found the Hold to Continue casting option did you?  Makes a huge difference... Not sure why that wasn't the default setting


 7d4g0V5.png

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Yea I saw the hypocrisy... The issue for me was going from complete freedom of movement to restricted movement with a completely different set of controls which standard North American titles have been using since 1998. (No right click mouse look, no A and D strafing, left and right mouse click main abilities)

 

Its like going from Final Fantasy 7 to Final Fantasy 1. Feels like a huge step backwards.

 

Its unfortunate because every indication was Crowfall was going for Wildstar's combat system, which I believe is the next step in evolution for the Action combat MMORPG genre. The entire combat FAQ page points toward Wildstar's combat system and the early in game footage made heavy use of AoEs for abilities (No tab targeting) and telegraphs. There was sprinting, double jumps and dashes as well. I really thought they were going to take the best of Wildstar and improve upon it. I was so excited I dropped 500 dollars for the KS.

 

Then the backlash happened here on the forums and now it appears Crowfall is going a step backwards with a sub standard system simply to appeal to a few hundred very vocal TERA fans that many of whom have never experienced Wildstar's combat. The walk back from the Dev was amazing to see in the last Crowns and Crows interview. It was like he was afraid.

 

I'm trying to keep an open mind though and acknowledge that while ACE is looking to Tera for their combat system,  they are obviously going to improve upon it over the next couple years. I'll definitely give Crowfall time and wait to see just how it turns out. At the end of the day, if Crowfall's combat is too restrictive, I can always go back to Wildstar

 

There actually was no indication that CF was going towards Wildstar, the only thing was the telegraphs in some of the videos we finally saw (which was even after they came out and said they were pulling heavy inspiration from TERA). When they did reveal those videos they even said it was an extremely early iteration for testing purposes and it was likely all to change. 

 

I would put TERAs combat way above Wildstars. TERA takes more skill and thought process, hands down. It actually lends itself well to large fights as well, where as Wildstar is a Crayola commercial.  So I would say going for a Wildstar like combat system would be a step backwards. 

 

I find it funny you say a vocal minority... yet TERA has more players than Wildstar and is actually doing better financially than Wildstar... So I would go ahead and say that YOU sir are the vocal minority and not the other way around. 

 

But none of this even matters. As Tully said they are only drawing inspiration from these games, they aren't copying them. CF will have its own take on combat, hopefully taking and building on the positives and deleting the negatives of multiple combat systems not just Wildstar and TERA. All combat systems have something decent to pull from. TERA has a horrible targeting system (pulling up Targeted player HP bars) but has excellent core combat mechanics. Blade and Soul is a soft targeting system, but it has excellent animations and flow of combat. AoC did finishers and combos really well. The list goes on.

 

I look at the people here at ACE as intelligent people (its why I backed) so I have every confidence they will create something unique by throwing in new ideas and drawing the positives of others.  

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Nobody is saying anything about the graphics. 

Your reading comprehension is horrible. You SHOULD take your leave now.

Yeah.. yawn... not impressed. 

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