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Elvine

Crafting / Economy F A Q

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Mass production - My real life time is my most valuable commodity. Don't make me spend 2 hours a night repairing gear for my guys out fighting instead of giving me a chance to do both. I like to build stuff, but I'm not a REMF. If I've got the resources, give me the opportunity to queue up and create stuff. Allow it to build while I'm offline. If I can train offline, why can't I craft offline? In fact, I'd be fine with allowing you to dedicate training time to creating items offline instead.

 

 

As vandarr said crafting offline would be awsome for high end items you should not be able to produce a legendary sword in under 10 seconds another option would be to craft components of an item ( hilt blade and grip for a sword ) each component could have different attributes and gain everything when combined.

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If I've got the resources, give me the opportunity to queue up and create stuff. Allow it to build while I'm offline. If I can train offline, why can't I craft offline? In fact, I'd be fine with allowing you to dedicate training time to creating items offline instead.

 

Crafting in Crowfall is borrowing heavily from Star Wars Galaxies, so offline crafting should not be a problem.  SWG allowed you to create manufacturing schematics at crafting stations, which you could plug in to your factories to automatically create the items.  (Crowfall seems to be combining crafting stations and factories into one building, using Thralls.)  To operate the factory, it was necessary to input the *exact* resources and components you used to create the schematic.  This meant that the more complex items required multiple factory runs to produce an final mass produced result.

 

A basic sword, for example, allowed you to add an optional "sword core".  If you chose to add the core to your schematic and intended to make 100 swords, then you would first need to make a factory run of 100 sword cores.  You could then proceed to do your factory run of 100 swords using your 100 identical sword cores.  (Well, 99, since you used one core in the schematic, but you get the idea. ;P)

 

The trade-off was that you couldn't use Enhancements in your factory runs since they were rare and it was difficult to find enough that were exactly identical.  Enhancements were optional ingredients you could add to your components to further customize your items.  I believe they are similar to what Crowfall's "additives" will be.  This effectively meant that your mass produced items were relatively mundane, but your special, more powerful ones were always hand-crafted and unique.  

 

You would frequently have someone bring in the Enhancements they farmed themselves as ingredients for a commissioned piece.  With SWG's experimentation and customization features, you could tailor the item to their exact specifications and create a truly one-of-a-kind item.  Hopefully we'll see this functionality (and more) borrowed for Crowfall as well.

Edited by Hyriol

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MODS? Re: crafting mini-game.

 

I'm not sure where to put this, so I'll query here.

 

As a disabled lass with brain damage, I will always be at a disadvantage within a pvp game....

 

"Parry, attack, defend, slash, headbutt, headbutt, go in for the kill..... OWN DEATH FROM RANDOM SPASM!"

 

I still have fun, but only because I can laugh at myself and enjoy other aspects of the game.

 

I'd love it if the digital worlds, wouldn't lock me out the same way that real life does, I appreciate realism, but play games to avoid it sometimes, so would you possibly consider my toons having the same chance as the toons of any abled body player? By which I mean, could you not rely on reflexes or physical skill within any mini-game?

 

With thanks

 

Ps if this is the wrong place, please tell me :D

Don't worry, the only "mini-game" they've confirmed is the experimentation system from Star Wars Galaxies. It's just a series of slider bars that you can adjust to spend your mastery points and "gamble" for better items with a progressively higher chance of failure. There's nothing twitchy about it and you have to confirm your decision before it will continue. From what I've gathered so far, Thomas Blair knows exactly how to make an amazing crafting system.

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Don't worry, the only "mini-game" they've confirmed is the experimentation system from Star Wars Galaxies. It's just a series of slider bars that you can adjust to spend your mastery points and "gamble" for better items with a progressively higher chance of failure. There's nothing twitchy about it and you have to confirm your decision before it will continue. From what I've gathered so far, Thomas Blair knows exactly how to make an amazing crafting system.

 

*Runs around cheering in celebration!*

 

Thanks for this :)


Ex-Member of :   Lf6MJUL.png  Re-applying soon!


 

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Yeah, I don't think mini-games of any sort are required to make Crafting a deep and engaging experience. We have had games in the past like SWG where there was tons of depth in crafting and they didn't really rely on mini-games. If properly combined with a solid harvesting system, one can easily spends hours just working on their craft, materials, storage, sales and supplies. Hopefully they will design such in-depth system.


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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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After reading through the FAQS, I am rather unimpressed.

I noticed something was curiously absent, fun and engagement.  At no point does it elucidate that crafting will have any principle form of engagement, or that the system will be in any way fun to participate in.  Like every over crafting system ever made in an MMO over the past couple of decades.

 

Which is very telling.  That despite being a 'primary role', having any form of engagement or enjoyment of said role is at best an afterthought.

Like every other sandbox I've ever seen.

While Blair did say they were at least having a conversation about it, and how it could be done, that doesn't encourage me much as that is the bare minimum that they should be doing.  I want to see brass tax not just that they intend to have engaging crafting. but suggested ideas on how they might go about it.

I want to see them committed to the idea, not just talk about it privately.  Talk is cheap.

 

 

Because my central problem is without engaging crafting, it tells us almost everything we'd ever need to know about how you view non-combat activities, as mere after thoughts, that don't need to have any form of engagement, and are as a result simply not fun.  Which becomes a problem in a sandbox MMO based around combat as said combat is almost always mediocre, as you can't have a massive world and also expect to have excellent combat as you would in a more contained experience.

Somethings got to give.  Esp with a team size and budget that this game has, it's a forgone conclusion the combat will indeed be mediocre at best.

 

Which leads to the inevitable question of, what is there that is actually fun to do in this game?

When your combat is only so-so, and you have nothing else, then how are you any different then the multitude of other sandbox MMOs that have come out over the past couple of decades?

Many of which I will remind you have either failed right out of the gate, never even reached launch, or do launch only to lose most of it's potential audience because it's by all right not a fun game to play.  At best it will be just another niche title with a pitifully small player base.

 

 

If I wanted a deep crafting system, in a huge world, with no engagement or fun to speak of, combat or otherwise - I'd play EVE Online.

But I don't, because it bores the poorly made socks out of me, even if I love the idea of it, I loathe the moment to moment gameplay.

And so far, the is very little to convince me that Crowfall will be anything other then yet another rendition of the exact same ideas every sandbox MMO is made of.

Combat is everything, everything else is an afterthought.  I've seen this movie, I know how it ends.

 

 

PS: If you want a suggestion for a game that does have excellent crafting mechanics, go no further then Cooking Mama.  It's a simple but fun series, check it out.

But I will honestly take anything. As any form of engagement is inherently better then none.

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After reading through the FAQS, I am rather unimpressed.

 

[..]

 

, go no further then Cooking Mama.  It's a simple but fun series, check it out.

But I will honestly take anything. As any form of engagement is inherently better then none.

 

This was a rather bitter post. However, I understand and agree with the concerns behind.

 

Having a complex and rich crafting system is one important thing, and it really seems to be going in the good direction for CF so far, with no obsolete recipes, every material having its use, the rarity going up with the challenges, the randomness of crafting, the blueprints, etc.

 

But now, when it comes to crafting per se, the blueprint system taking over the mass production part of it, will it be fun to do?

 

To my opinion, there are many sides to crafting, each of them not being easily setup with the same UI or player interaction:

  1. the research of recipes: this should be some sort of try and fail system, similar to Divinity original sins, where we test random compositions and come up with recipes, improvements, or stats information. I would not mind eating unknown shrooms to death if it allows me to cook an awesome dish later. You have the idea, and I think ACE is headed in this direction on that point.
  2. the crafting unit per unit: this could be a minigame I think. Simple, but always different, even if we create 10 swords the same, the game should repeat 10 times differently (as crafting IRL was always a matter of patience, precision, experience, and could always fail if the crafter was not serious about it). Could be any kind of brain teaser, puzzle riddle, etc you name it (or the 1000 different basic flash games you find on Internet). The difficulty should also rise with the rarity. You can also check lumosity.com to have an idea for example. It could also slightly differ depending on the type of crafting you do, making each player better at something depending on their own skills and likes. Could be a Tetris-like for siege crafting, a don't-touch-the-walls for enchanting, a wall breaker for blacksmith, a fruit ninja for cooking, etc etc etc.
  3. the research of a blueprint: This should be similar to finding the pathway out of a maze (like the paper game you played when you were 8, and there was no GameBoy around), or could be similar to EVE hacking minigame.
  4. the crafting in bulk: Well, you took the time to solve the maze, and here you are with your new blueprint, so if you have everything needed (materials, production chain) then you should be able to set it up and go on with your life while it is in production, like in EVE.

Well, that is pretty much it. But you got the idea, and there are definitely plenty of things to do to make the crafting elements distinct from each other, and engaging and fun for everyone.

 

Now,, we will know more about the crafting system soon. :)

Edited by Eaden

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This was a rather bitter post. However, I understand and agree with the concerns behind.

 

Having a complex and rich crafting system is one important thing, and it really seems to be going in the good direction for CF so far, with no obsolete recipes, every material having its use, the rarity going up with the challenges, the randomness of crafting, the blueprints, etc.

 

But now, when it comes to crafting per se, the blueprint system taking over the mass production part of it, will it be fun to do?

 

-snip

 

Admittedly I am pretty jaded at this point, but given an shear level of insanity I witness in this industry year after year, It's bloody hard not to be.

When you see sandbox after sandbox come out one after another, all boasting how they are new and different, but when it comes down to anything that matters they are 95% identical to every other sandbox that came before them, and then people expect different results? You kind of just get fed up with a genre and industry that refuses to have meaningful change.

 

Now to be fair a lot of this is the result of publishers and investors often time funding MMO's, and thus having different priorities then devs or the player base, and given the shear amount of money in play they are very risk adverse.  Which is why a crowd funded project such as this is the only real chance of getting any bloody change.

 

Which is why it is doubly frustrating when I see the game and the devs sprint down the same tread, bulldozed, razed and covered with bloody salt path that every other sandbox MMO as gone down, again expecting different results.  A sandbox that is intensively only about combat and nothing else is doomed to mediocrity.

And simply having a feature in your game, doesn't make it fun.  Mechanics matter.

And I am just so sick and bloody tired of crafting (and non combat in general) always getting the short end of the development stick, even when it been made exceedingly bloody clear over the last couple of years that this is something people not only greatly want this, but enjoy it thoroughly.

 

Look at Minecraft, Terraria, Starbound, Stardew Valley.  All commercial hits made on a relatively small budget.

At this point there is no excuse for the lackluster gameplay and mechanics that is standard in this industry,  If we applied this same concept to combat, nobody would tolerate it.  So you can see why I get kind of pissy over this.

 

 

The way I see it there are two different elements at play here.

1, Is what you pointed out, of having a system that is deep and meaningful, where your decisions matter.  Having a lot of options plays into that.  This is made all the more potent when you build it into a real world like economy, ie EVE Online.

2, Is the moment to moment gameplay elements, the shear enjoying of doing.  And this is the part I get hung up on as it effectively doesn't exist in the MMO industry, yet has existed for years outside of it and done very well.  And is again evidently not prohibitively expensive.

 

I see these two as chocolate and peanutbutter.  They've been proven to work extremely well on their own, people can't get enough and regularly say as much, and yet no game has yet had the brass balls to put them together.   And I expect the first game to do this to likely be rather successful, and that's putting it mildly.

And yet there is constantly so much resistance to the idea that I find baffling.

 

 

And while the team still has plenty of time and room to tackle this problem, honestly their lukewarm response in addressing it has given me a great deal of pause. Making me question whether or not I will support them in the future.  I'd like to, I want them to succeed, but only if they a willing to take the risks and steps necessary to make meaningful change in this industry, and personally this is my #1 feature; as it is indicative of their mindset and development process going forward.

I can accept failure, but I cannot accept thous who refuse to try in the first place.

 

I just hope for their sake that they listen to the people who have been yelling at the top of their lungs since day 1, that they want crafting (and non combat in general) to actually be fun for once.   It's not much to ask.

 

We'll see how this stream pans out.

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Admittedly I am pretty jad

 

[..]

 

 

We'll see how this stream pans out.

 

This is a rather "bloody" answer. However, fair points all over again.

 

As you say, rushing the combat part would never be accepted. And I doubt ACE is rushing the crafting part either.

 

Take the harvesting process for example, which would give us just as good as an idea of what crafting will be like. They actually put a tremendous part of time and development into it, going up to using combat elements to make the harvesting process feel good while doing it. Just this point makes my point when you think about it.

 

I can also mention the design chosen to make every resources different but recognizable, whatever their level, etc. The effects when harvesting them, the sound it will make, etc. And this is just the harvesting process, i.e. the tip of the iceberg.

 

Now, the true question is: what would make crafting per se cool? What would make it crafting, the act of actually creating an object in Crowfall, interesting? Non linear?

 

And I think that deserves a topic in itself.

 

I am quite sure ACE has already an idea about it, but why not giving us what we would like to see instead? We may have more influence than you think in shaping the future model of crafting in the MMO industry. Who knows? :)

 

I am going to create a topic about it. I think it is worth some think tank!

 

Edit: here is the topic - click here

Edited by Eaden

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I personally havnt had much experience with this style of crafting systems and as its still in pre-alpha im just gonna leave it brewing before I nit pick it. But what im curious about is currency in this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e00JbH1_kCg . We have the dev saying that currency will be dust from harvesting, so that means the only flow of currency in the game is from the harvesters. I want to be a crafter so that means I will have to do some harvesting in the beginning to get enough dust together to start the inevitable buy resources that I make in to items for hopefully profit. So if im in an area with low "iron" for example the prices of swords and iron(for certain stats) will go up im guessing this will be player determined not just set by the devs. I cant find much information on how crafters will get "profit" in resources or dust. 

 

How I see it; as a crafter I need to source harvesters to buy the best resources to make our items that we can sell for more materiel or dust, were we can store the booty in local banks that we eventually will want to put in purgatory for EK. I just cant find how we will determine what prices are if we are AFK and we leave our shop to sell our stuff for us, do we set the price. I would like either 2k dust or 500 iron its unclear. 

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The crafting system is not very complex; it just sounds complex on paper. The vague recipe system is very similar to "Dragon Age: Inquisition". But the main problem I see is the total lack of unique item properties / abilities. Even "DA: Inquisition", not a game famous for a deep crafting system, had a much better way to attach special abilities to items, which actually made a profound impact on combat. And let's not talk about definitively game changing items of the like of the "Guardian Angel" of "League of Legends" (gives you an instant revive after death with a 5 minute cooldown).

What's the point of crafting in "Crowfall"? To grind in an absolute primitive farming for some tiny boni to attack rate or critical hit? At best an ultra-rare 5% life leech bonus if you get a lucky roll?

That's a very bad way to do crafting. "Landmark" just closed its servers with a similar concept. And guess what? It's not the fault of the stupid players. It's the primitive pseudo-complex crafting design.

On 14.3.2015 at 3:52 PM, Elvine said:

DO ITEMS REQUIRE SUB-COMPONENTS?

 

Yes, in fact, the whole system is based on the idea of combining reagents and sub-components to make better components. This is the “secret sauce” of our system, which gives a crafter a wide spectrum of experimentation and customization!

To continue the example from above: the plate helm recipe has a resource slot that requires three metal. The crafter can use any three metal they want in the recipe. Want to focus on a single statistic? Use three pure metals. Want to go multiple statistics? Use three alloys. Smiths can make their weapon (or gauntlets, or helmet, or…) as custom or as simple as they want.

It's not a "secret sauce". It has been done before, see "Dragon Age: Inquisition". The concept is actually nice, but not that complex. It all depends on the special abilities you can attach to items. And I haven't seen anything interesting in "Crowfall" yet in that department. In 2017 noone cares for some single-digit percents of attack rate or critical hits, that are relicts from the 1970s D&D pen & paper sessions, where the rolling of a 20-sided dice was the most exciting thing ever.

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On 3/3/2017 at 5:24 AM, Doradur said:

. In 2017 noone cares for some single-digit percents of attack rate or critical hits, that are relicts from the 1970s D&D pen & paper sessions, where the rolling of a 20-sided dice was the most exciting thing ever.

I fail to see how the year changes if a significant attack boost is good or not.

 

And DnD is still going strong. And far more entertaining than any mmo.

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1 hour ago, Vonpenguin said:

I fail to see how the year changes if a significant attack boost is good or not.

And DnD is still going strong. And far more entertaining than any mmo.

But I was clearly talking about the rolls of a 20-sided dice in the context of a computer game, not the pen & paper system itself. The pen & paper builds on the fantasy and freedom of the players to articulate their actions. You can play pen & paper without a dice, but not without fantasy.

But I don't want to discuss D&D. The point is that a combat system like original "EverQuest", where everything revolves around some RNG roll every second, doesn't cut it in 2017. Same goes for a crafting system, that thinks it's entertaining to have no other activity than to wait for the result of a roll.

D&D may be alive, but MMORPGs are in a crisis. "Titan" and "EverQuest Next" are dead, after wasting hundreds of millions of dollars. The scraps of "Titan" turned into "Overwatch". Daybreak Games just shut down "(EverQuest Next) Landmark", but is doing great with a Battle Royal mod of their survival zombie game "H1Z1". The BR mod has over 10 times more players than the traditional persistent original game!

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1 minute ago, Doradur said:

But I was clearly talking about the rolls of a 20-sided dice in the context of a computer game, not the pen & paper system itself. The pen & paper builds on the fantasy and freedom of the players to articulate their actions. You can play pen & paper without a dice, but not without fantasy.

But I don't want to discuss D&D. The point is that a combat system like original "EverQuest", where everything revolves around some RNG roll every second, doesn't cut it in 2017. Same goes for a crafting system, that thinks it's entertaining to have no other activity than to wait for the result of a roll.

D&D may be alive, but MMORPGs are in a crisis. "Titan" and "EverQuest Next" are dead, after wasting hundreds of millions of dollars. The scraps of "Titan" turned into "Overwatch". Daybreak Games just shut down "(EverQuest Next) Landmark", but is doing great with a Battle Royal mod of their survival zombie game "H1Z1". The BR mod has over 10 times more players than the traditional persistent original game!

Actually it wasn't clear, you talked about increased damage being insufficient then talked about dnd in the seventies, making it seem like a criticism of it being "primitive". I'll admit you did stumble on something that gets me prickily and I was already in a sour mood because of something unrelated to this site, so apologies.

 

The activity is in figuring out what materials to mix,what to experiment with, who to give or trade or sell to. saying everything rests on the RNG just because that is the only automated system is short sighted. This isn't the deepest system in the world but it isn't shallow by any means.

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The activity is in figuring out what materials to mix,what to experiment with, who to give or trade or sell to. saying everything rests on the RNG just because that is the only automated system is short sighted. This isn't the deepest system in the world but it isn't shallow by any means.

The problem with this reasoning is that it's arbitrarily applied to anything-but-combat. If the combat system involved oodles and oodles of choosing gear and tactics combos but had no player agency in the act of battle, itself, no one would laud it for being plentily complex.

People say that crafting's only complexity lies in the passive choices because they don't know any better. Combat always gets all that complexity AND in-the-moment player agency. No one has yet produced a reason why this is okay.


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