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CyberWing89

Parkour (Inspired Movement) In Crowfall


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(continuation from my last post on page 3)

parkour in general is a great idea. though for early game shouldn't be implemented yet until a lot of other issues are ironed out ( let's face it every good game has them early or late before/after alpha and beta testing.

I agree. Whether or not parkour will be in this game, it shouldn't be rushed.

 

 

Anyways, even if parkour in Crowfall doesn't need to be like it, maybe this video could demonstrate appropriate level of parkour: (warning; a lot of blood, you can skip those parts, but the parkour in it is worth looking at for the purpouse of this thread): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VquthW4jIDk

 

Anyways, this should probably be limited to certain archetypes, like humanoids being able to do a simple vault, assassins/stalkers/rangers might be able to scale very small walls/similar stuff. Centaurs could have a little bit faster movement speed to counter their inability to parkur. Then they might be slightly inefficient in a town or mountain, but you'd be basically unable to outrun them in plains-like environments.

Edited by CyberWing89

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Lol parkour should not be in this game. Back to the drawing board.

Edited by checkyotrack

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Most games you are still able to glitch the engine to get to place you previously would not have been able to. So it would just take a while and not have an animation but you would get to your desired location... I do not see why a parkour system would be needed.... wall running is different, but again it won't be needed with destroy-able terrain. If you want a fast moving - distance covering character I can understand where you are coming from, but to implement a whole system with included animations for each character is a bit much.

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I do not understand what people think parkour is, but it is not simply scaling walls. I do not even understand what it means to include it in an MMO. Is it jumping? Is it jumping over things? Running fast? Or is it just climbing things a la assassins creed?

 

What I interpret as parkour in a videogame is basicaly a movement system where momentum is crucial. If you are running, you have to keep your momentum by evading obstacles, jumping over things and rolling when you fall down a steep, if you do not, you have to start running again, and pick up speed progressively.

 

Normally on MMOs, you are either running or you are static, with a system that took momentum into account it would be different, because you would need to pick up speed before you start running. This could have some interesting implications, because if you had to escape some enemies, you would need to evade them or you would lose all your momentum if you collided with them. This opens a lot more possibilities based on movement.

 

Sorry if that did not make much sense.

 

And also, the guy who posted the Landmark "parkour" video... Well, it is a system that is in progress and god knows how it will end up.

 

Black Desert is a better example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n5HVzb59rY

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Parkour , to me at least, is allowing full freedom of movement and letting you use natural momentum to get to a point where you want without being "held back" because the game doesn't allow you to naturally do something you would be able to do.

 

This includes:

 

Climbing

Jumping

Vaulting over objects

Swinging to objects

etc.

 

All of these combined are what "parkour" is to me.

 

Which is why it befuddles me that so many people are against allowing freedom of movement in a video game.

 

I wonder how many of them would like to not be able to jump?

 

It's hard to play a game like AC/Dying Light and then go back to having 0 ability to "climb" objects and get to places vertically like you want.

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I dont know if it would fit this game, parkour is cool dont get me wrong, watched a few videos of russians doing some crazy poorly made socks. it just doesnt feel like it would be a good match in crowfall.

 

Although i did hear there would be some parkour in a korean mmo called black dessert. Looks really cool.

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I do not understand what people think parkour is, but it is not simply scaling walls. I do not even understand what it means to include it in an MMO. Is it jumping? Is it jumping over things? Running fast? Or is it just climbing things a la assassins creed?

 

What I interpret as parkour in a videogame is basicaly a movement system where momentum is crucial. If you are running, you have to keep your momentum by evading obstacles, jumping over things and rolling when you fall down a steep, if you do not, you have to start running again, and pick up speed progressively.

 

Normally on MMOs, you are either running or you are static, with a system that took momentum into account it would be different, because you would need to pick up speed before you start running. This could have some interesting implications, because if you had to escape some enemies, you would need to evade them or you would lose all your momentum if you collided with them. This opens a lot more possibilities based on movement.

 

Sorry if that did not make much sense.

 

And also, the guy who posted the Landmark "parkour" video... Well, it is a system that is in progress and god knows how it will end up.

 

Black Desert is a better example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n5HVzb59rY

 

I agree...

 

They are implementing a physics engine, I think they would be cutting it short if momentum was not included in "basic movement".  The videos have hinted at this in saying that toons that run into each other and interact based on their size and mass.  In thinking of battle, being shoved around because someone ran into you at full speed, it changes the tactics when its possible to burst through a defensive line.

 

The rest of parkour.... eh... it could be cool in a limited fashion for one or two character builds.  I don't see it as something the movement system should be designed around.  

 

Some type of jumping or climbing has to be in the game, but I would not like to see everyone climbing everthing. 

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As already stated no thanks, will take more time to incorporate into the game and a lot of debugging with hit detection and awkward landing in the game world. It's not a necessity and i don't believe it will enhance the game compared to other vital ideas.

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Try to do that in plate, ringmail. It won't happen. Leather and cloth, yes. But parkour didn't work out to well for Brink.


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There will be flyers both natural and magic that can fly over the walls.  The devs have already talked about tunneling under walls.  Shadowbane had several magical methods of bypassing walls I see being imported like teleportation via magic, discipline runes with wall bypass mechanisms like Blackmask and Sapper/Sabotuer runes.  The intro graphic shows people blasting holes right through walls via manual bashing.  You can also expect siege engines like Trebuchets to smash walls and defensive structures to rubble.  Building walls will be both expensive in gold and resources and likely quite time consuming to build enough walls to fortify your city.  

 

The last thing we need is yet another bypass so someone can just run/climb up them and over.


 

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Did yal see that aerial double jump back flip doe?, no parkour compares to how impractical that is, anything would be better.


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I do not understand what people think parkour is, but it is not simply scaling walls. I do not even understand what it means to include it in an MMO. Is it jumping? Is it jumping over things? Running fast? Or is it just climbing things a la assassins creed?

 

What I interpret as parkour in a videogame is basicaly a movement system where momentum is crucial.

 

In the context of a video game, whenever you see the term 'Parkour' used it does not refer to a type of player movement or momentum based physics, it only refers to the use of canned acrobatic animations on the player model. If the player model plays an animation to pull itself up a ledge, plays an animation to kick off a wall or plays an animation to roll or slide under things, then this is 'Parkour' by the modern game dev definition. How the character moves in terms of its position in the game world isn't important, it's a name given to a set of animations.

 

If you're looking for actual momentum and movement physics, you're best off going a good decade back. Your description of momentum most accurately fits Quake movement, but we never say that Quake has Parkour because it doesn't have any canned animations for it. Meanwhile Mirror's Edge has far simpler movement than Quake, but shows little animated hands vaulting over ledges. We call that Parkour.

 

The best example of momentum physics in recent MMOs is Wildstar's movement. But we don't call this Parkour either.

Edited by TeoH

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Wow I didn't expect such an overwhelmingly negative response when reading the initial post. But the replies... everyone hates the idea of any heroic movement. I'm on my phone at work so typing a lot is hard but just wanted to start my reply. Yes i think heroic movement in Crowfall would be valid idea. More to come in 4 hours when i get home. Until then have at it and hate on me for having a different opinion :D

 

Alright let me unfold my opinion a bit now that I'm home.

(Note: I use the term Heroic movement a lot in this post. This is synonymous with parkour)

 

I think the first question that needs to be answered is: "Do I think "parkour" is doable in an MMO?"

Yes.

 

Secondly, do I think that Crowfall should have it?

Yes.

 

Why the hell should we risk putting a feature like this into Crowfall, when plenty of other games have been successful in the genre while not having this feature?

Because Crowfall is not bound by the limit of genres. These close-minded responses to parkour are very ignorant. Yes, if you want a parkour experience, you're welcome to go play Mirror's Edge. But what if I want to play Mirror's Edge, while playing through a season of Game of Thrones, and advancing my characters dark magic skill and constructing a new castle fort? This game is taking a lot of steps in new directions for an MMO. And I believe that parkour could offer some... different routes to success in campaign worlds.

 

 

Let me lay out AN example for why parkour could contribute to Crowfall! Because heroic Movement is just an extension of movement that we already have in game. Not every class should have all the same abilities for movement. 

 

Say, during a campaign, as my guild discovers more landmass (because no maps/minimaps :Dsource), we come up to this mountain cliff that scales for miles in either direction. We have an archetype with us called... Explorer (let's get generic, hell ya!). He goes through his passive training manual and finds a skill called climbing. He starts training it and we set up camp at a river and waterfall that scale the cliff for the night. The following morning we send the explorer up since he has the heroic movement capability to do so having reached the first rank in climbing. The actual process of climbing the mountain, probably involves jumping at ledges he sees in the cliffside. He reaches the top and scouts around to find a large supply of ores, wildlife, and game that would be valuable to the party during the campaign. With his climbing skill he gains the ability to use rope to drop down to archetypes that don't have the same parkour prowess that he does. The rope lowers and the rest of our guild climb the mountain. The forgemaster sets up a forge and begins smelting ore to forge new weapons for the party. The beasthunter sets about tracking food for the night, and so on and so forth.

 

Look at that organic and cool interaction between players in the game. Had our guild not recruited an explorer for that campaign, we would have just continued exploring in either direction of the cliffside till we found a way to get up ourselves. It'd be SOOO fun to be that explorer class that just got your team a large advantage as well. You'd feel great as the explorer. Not to say there couldn't be other solutions to this problem besides bringing an explorer. They don't even need to be parkour related. In fact another group might find a cave at the cliffside that's filled with valuable ore. And perhaps some gemstones that can be enchanted and socketed into weapons. The core concept I'm getting at here is that valuable gameplay occurs when 1 player can provide a unique service to other players that they might not otherwise have access to! It's one of the reasons that playing a Wizard in classic Everquest was so fun! Players would come to you asking for a portal that was valuable and they'd often pay for it. It became an economy of services. If you have an explorer in your guild, you get to scale mountains for FREE! Rather than trying to hire one.

 

Now the coolest part about all this: Was there any combat involved? Not at all. All the parkour and heroic movement that occurred were used to help gain a strategic edge in this theoretical campaign. Doesn't mean we can't have in combat parkour too.

 

The last question I want to answer before I hit the hay and end my post to see what arises from it is this: Can Crowfall succeed without Parkour?

Easily. It doesn't need to be in the game. I'll play it either way, but I just want to display a valuable outlook on this feature that could be overlooked. And to show that it isn't going to make anyone "imba". This game is about creating new playstyles for players who may be seeking a niche like this. And making these playstyles valid and valuable to groups of other players that want to do their thing.

 

Now a little rant about the whole game design philosophy for Crowfall and ACE's dev team.

 

A fully functioning gulid in World of Warcraft is a group of 20 players who log on 3-4 nights a week to kill X amount of farm bosses and do progression on 1 raid boss they haven't killed yet. As long as all of them mash their buttons in the right order and don't stand in fire in an encounter, they'll have success. I'd give a PvP example, but guilds don't really play a part in WoW PvP. Now a comparison:

 

A fully functioning guild in Crowfall is a whole different beast entirely. Say you enter a campaign as a group of 8. You bring a knight, a Mage, a Forgemaster, an Explorer(yay my made up class!), an Assassin, a Huntsman, a Legionnaire, and a Stalker. Now each of these players can take a place in combat but they all offer much more than that.

 

Strategically, the Knight is fairly simple in an MMO space. He gets in the frontline and deals damage and protects his teammates. He's also picked up some Disciplines like Shieldmaster, giving him extra abilities with his shield and letting him block more damage from attacks.

 

The mage provides powerful damage from the backline, and has a Discipline called bounty hunter, letting them deal extra damage to enemies who have bounties on their heads. She can also create portals back to forts for your team so you don't have to traverse land that may be hostile once again.

 

The forgemaster swings his hammer in combat and creates weapons for parties. He also prepares his allies for battle by sharpening their blades giving them bonus damage before a battle.

 

The explorer gets you up mountains! And he creates campfires faster than anyone. He also has a discipline that hides campfires that he makes from enemy teams for a smaller distance. This lets him scout further ahead and camp alone before returning to provide intel and better stay safe.

 

The Assassin wields daggers in combat and when the explorer has done his job right, she sneaks into enemy camps with proper stealth and poisons their food supplies before your team attacks. The poison lowers the enemy teams stats to give you a small advantage.

 

The Huntsman gains extra damage against wildlife, and provides large quantities of food to your team to keep you fed and healthy, and crafts leather armor for teammates who prefer a more agile combat playstyle, including himself.

 

The Legionnaire provides valuable buffs and abilities in combat. He creates strategic value for where to stand during a fight, and helps get the enemy's back line to your frontline.

 

Lastly the Stalker sets out before a battle to lay traps, causing enemy teams to fumble forward in battle. He in coordination with your legionnaire setup valuable positioning to give your team the advantage they need to win.

 

Now tie up all those ideas and apply them to nearly every encounter that your guild has during the campaign. That is going to make for some super fun, strategic, and skillful gameplay.

 

This part of the post has been a total derail...  too tired. But you get the point right? Value is created from all these different Archetypes. The value of a character isn't always in his combat skills. It's in the strategic value they offer to everyone. Keep that in mind for the development of Crowfall. Parkour could play a cool part in many archetype character designs. Doesn't need to... but it could :)

Edited by EntityGaming

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^ This  I really like this.

 

Here is a little background. I came to Crowfall only because Camelot Unchained seemed to be mired in their own techno cell. The point being is all I want is PvP and the larger the scale the better. I plan on rolling a tank/heavy melee and a stealth... that is it.

 

The thing is the more I think about the game and keeping a healthy playing population, The more I think we want all of these different archetypes. I know many say they do not want anything in the game taking anything away from the CW focus and trust me that is my focus, but I keep thinking we might want more people playing the game as that keeps the game itself healthy which in turn keeps ACE healthy, and that is best for all of us.

 

But the above idea is brilliant because it is another way to play the game but focused on the CW. It provides no benefit for min/maxers but allows more people who want to play the game differently to play and be in the CWs.

 

Win/win from my pov... :) .

Edited by Anaraion

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I'm all for a Climber discipline but not what might be described as "free-running", which implies ninja stuff.

 

Creating limited pathing through mountainous obstacles is perfectly legit, as it is definitely fulfilling the "war simulation" of this game.

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I'm all for a Climber discipline but not what might be described as "free-running", which implies ninja stuff.

The idea of free running is fairly useless as far as I understand when it comes to a game like Crowfall. It might be fun to have a very agile class to be able to move quicker and have shorter cooldowns on movement abilities, but I semi-agree here. Free-running is something that originated in modern times. I'd imagine being able to run away by climbing up a tree very quickly would be something fun for a dexterity based class. Or even climbing the tree and using a farsight ability to scout the enemy base that is camping in the field on the edge of a forest. Once again, strategic advantages being gained from parkour abilities. Landmark a voxel engine game applied "free running" and "heroic movement" to all movement in the game. The overall effect: if I pressed shift in midair, I would do a somersault. If I was wearing double jump boots, I could flip twice. If I jumped off a cliff backwards I could do endless somersaults... There was no advantage this gave me. It got old quick, but it didn't hurt my gameplay. So say in Crowfall: if someone wanted to purchase a cosmetic ability that caused their rogue to do little pirouettes and flips when traversing the landscape I'd be fine with it.

Edited by EntityGaming

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I think parkour (or whatever you want to call it) would be best implemented as a fairly restricted Discipline Rune, based on character mass; So for example you could have Guineceans and Rangers jumping around or climbing trees or what-have-you while some of the heavier dudes like the Minotaur, Legionnaire, or Knight might not be able to. As for what actual form it would take, that depends on what the Devs want from it, but, in general, I like the idea of a free-flowing movement system for the lighter classes. And, of course, there could also be equipment like a grappling hook and ladders and stuff to further make it easier. However, this really is something for much further down the line once they get basic features figured out. 

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