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Is It Too Early To Start Asking About Crafting Math? Questions On Alloys


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Now that we have our own area to Theorycraft .. I wanted to start a dialog about the math I see in the Alloy chart example that was dropped in Blixtev's MMORPG.com article. First let me say 2 things before I outline my questions.

1) I know that its really early in the process so lots can change and this is just an early look at a possible idea

2) I really like the depth of complexity I see 

 

All base metals have a starting base attribute addition, in the shared example we see 0.2 STR for Copper, 0.4 STR for Iron, etc.  The alloy examples shown (which based on my math is just a very ... very small tip of the possible iceberg) has a disconnect in the math which may make sense but I would like to know more about it.  Lets take Bronze versus Crown Gold.

 

Bronze is made up of an ore combination of Copper (0.2 STR) and Tin (0.6 STR) for a STR total 1.0. 

 

Crown Gold is made up of an ore combination of Copper (0.2 STR) and Gold (1.0 STR) and Gold (1.0 STR) for a STR total of 2.2

 

In one alloy combination the raw materials base values are enhanced in their resulting STR value, the other it is not. This could be spot on in the Crowfall team's balance plans because the secondary attribute of Crown Gold "Crit Damage" might need to minimize any base attribute increase above the values brought into the ingot by the ore? Its understanding these small difference I see a path for crafters to segment themselves from those who dabble in crafting. So will Crowfall crafting keep these min/max opportunities that make more detailed nuances? 

 

My second question is 'will the crafter be able to adjust the quality of the refined results'?  Again we have to use the Alloy example but lets look at Copper Ingots.  It takes 2 Copper ore to get one Copper ingot, but in some cases we see 3 ore used to make an ingot. What can we make wild assumptions about with this information (glad you asked  :lol: )

Are all ingots the same size? does weight of an ingot rely in the type of ingot? Could I use 3 Copper ore to make 1 Copper ingot instead of 2? Does that mean the resulting ingot is better than the base 2 ore ingot? Ore is impure by nature, so using more to create a higher grade makes some sense but might create a complex management process for the dev team.  If 3 is the magic number (this is an old person reference) does that mean I could adjust the stats of Rose Gold by adding another Copper or Gold ore to the mix? Could there be sub-ingot sets to Alloys that just require 2 ore? Could the complexity even be more than just the math 5^3 could it be 5^2 + 5^3 ?

 

 

Crowfall_AlloyChart.jpg

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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How true this is makes me sad. It really cuts down on recipe exploration.   The only really successful implementation of hidden recipes that I can remember is the spell system from Asheron's Call. P

It's not off the table yet, it is just difficult to play through a scenario in your head where someone harvesting in the Campaigns has 10 different stacks of different copper with a few in each, and 8

You are correct but in SWG this worked great because of houses and backpacks which would hold millions of resource. It wasn't infinite, but any player could have 10 houses with nothing but bags filled

I'm coming from an SWG colored approach here since that was a material based system as well.  I don't think that the quality of the result relates much to the amount used because the ore types shown are just generic ore types.

 

The actual ores that we'll be mining are going to be different within each ore type.  For example, let's say you're on a campaign world in the NE sector and you've found some copper.  It's sporkledorkle copper and it's pretty low quality but the mining of it goes quickly so you grab some.   You head North and find more copper - except this time it's rippledipple copper and it's really high quality!  Mining is a lot slower but you grab some.  When it's time to craft if you make your ingot from the lower quality sporkledorkle copper you'll wind up with an ingot that has less of the end stat on it than if you would have made your ingot with the higher quality rippledipple copper.

 

The gear you make for your guildies might not have to be of uberduber quality as they're likely to roll through gear out in the harsh campaign environment so maybe you use your lower quality ingots for basic gear.  But that high quality copper ingot - that you use for special gear that a guildy needs or for  making super strong walls or a high quality catapult or whatever seems like the best use of the better quality.  I usually used the highest quality to create crafting equipment.

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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The different grades of the same base metal interests me greatly, wonder if we could improve a POI to change the outcome?

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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Why is iron before tin. Copper plus tin is bronze. Bronze age came before iron age. So tin before iron?

 

Will there be steel. I know this is a list of metals but steel.

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Why is iron before tin. Copper plus tin is bronze. Bronze age came before iron age. So tin before iron?

 

Will there be steel. I know this is a list of metals but steel.

My hope is the shown list is just the tip of the iceberg in Alloys

The possible permutations are vast ... I am hopeful we see a lot of experimenting with alloy (and any other base material) 

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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Its understanding these small difference I see a path for crafters to segment themselves from those who dabble in crafting. So will Crowfall crafting keep these min/max opportunities that make more detailed nuances?

 

 

 

I just want to point out that no it won't. Someone will write a guide and then everyone will know how to do it too. They would need to make it much more complex than that image implies before it could become hoarded knowledge.

David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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To give you an idea of how goofy resource intricacy can get - here's a link to the SWG resource tree  http://www.swgcraft.org/dev/resource_tree.php for SWGemu.

 

As you drill down into the chart you'll see that there are many versions of mats.  If you're after Bristly Hide, you can get a DR stat (decay resistance) starting at 8 and going all the way to 938. 

 

Because the resources spawned in different areas on different planets for limited times, you had to be on your toes to get the right mats for what you wanted to create.  Very challenging and competitive. Part of a crafter's rep was based on what mats they had access to.  Really fun times.

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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I just want to point out that no it won't. Someone will write a guide and then everyone will know how to do it too. They would need to make it much more complex than that image implies before it could become hoarded knowledge.

 

How true this is makes me sad. It really cuts down on recipe exploration.

 

The only really successful implementation of hidden recipes that I can remember is the spell system from Asheron's Call. Players had to "discover" their spells by casting them once. There was 6-8 categories of components with 10-18 different components that could go in each slot. The combination was different per player, so you couldn't go look it up in a guide. You just didn't figure out some of your spells and that's the way it was. Players who had the top ranks of spells were rare.

 

If memory serves it was super awesome, that was until someone figured out that the seed for the mystic combination was based on the account name and the whole system came crashing down. Shortly after a tool was generated, you put in your account name and it spit out all the combinations for your spells. Being a competitive game everyone had to use the tool because no one wanted to be missing the top rank of spells.

 

And this was in the days before wikis existed. Pretty much there was one or two forums that served a community. I can only imagine how quickly a system like that would fall today. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done. but the rule of thumb with cryptography is, it only buys you time, the code will eventually get cracked. Which really sucks for folks who never experienced a system like AC's spells.

Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
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How true this is makes me sad. It really cuts down on recipe exploration.

 

The only really successful implementation of hidden recipes that I can remember is the spell system from Asheron's Call. Players had to "discover" their spells by casting them once. There was 6-8 categories of components with 10-18 different components that could go in each slot. The combination was different per player, so you couldn't go look it up in a guide. You just didn't figure out some of your spells and that's the way it was. Players who had the top ranks of spells were rare.

 

If memory serves it was super awesome, that was until someone figured out that the seed for the mystic combination was based on the account name and the whole system came crashing down. Shortly after a tool was generated, you put in your account name and it spit out all the combinations for your spells. Being a competitive game everyone had to use the tool because no one wanted to be missing the top rank of spells.

 

And this was in the days before wikis existed. Pretty much there was one or two forums that served a community. I can only imagine how quickly a system like that would fall today. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done. but the rule of thumb with cryptography is, it only buys you time, the code will eventually get cracked. Which really sucks for folks who never experienced a system like AC's spells.

It may cut down on an implemented system of hidden recipes but, you don't need hidden recipes in order to make items different. Having randomized resource generation with different quality levels (such as in SWG) and then having an additional system of exploration/experimentation can make the differences in crafting almost infinite.

 

The exception to the rule is obviously when people find the perfect materials, they may be able to hit some kind of hard cap for perfect stats but, even in a game like SWG those type of items were exceedingly rare. We had a gentleman in our guild that was known for being the best combat medic in the game and it's because he had gotten lucky experimenting on some Night Sister fueled disease medication and managed to hit the 999 (theoretical maximum) on his AOE disease meds (Basically, he'd hit a big group of people and it would turn their entire bar black with the injury mechanic, so even though they might be alive, they had a maximum health/mana/stamina bar of less than 100). So, after being in combat with our guild for a few minutes, your entire guild was unable to fight anymore. 

 

Even though this seems like a crazy overpowered mechanic, it was found through exploration and experimentation of a legitimate system and also through a lot of luck. His find made us one of the most powerful guilds in the server and spawned a bunch of people trying to duplicate the same thing...and they were never able to do it.

 

That's the goal as a crafter, gain respect and notoriety through great feats of crafting. I want a game that allows me to be known as "THE BEST," through hard work, good trades and determination.  

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It may cut down on an implemented system of hidden recipes but, you don't need hidden recipes in order to make items different. Having randomized resource generation with different quality levels (such as in SWG) and then having an additional system of exploration/experimentation can make the differences in crafting almost infinite.

 

 

You are correct but in SWG this worked great because of houses and backpacks which would hold millions of resource. It wasn't infinite, but any player could have 10 houses with nothing but bags filled with more resource than a player could use in several crafting lifetimes(I know I did).

 

In a game like Crowfall where inventory space is much more limited and stack size is smaller that kind of hoarding won't be possible. Quality is a big concern for us because it would require the player to carry many different stacks of the same resource, since you would need one for each quality level. (ie copper 10%. copper 20%, Copper 30%, etc) A huge chunk of your backpack would be consumed by this. Same thing applies to different different types within a resource.(ie Diatium Copper, Codoan Copper). Combine types with quality and you have quite an inventory problem on your hands.

 

I suspect we will have to find a different route that doesn't bypass inventory because inventory size and potential for loss is core to many systems in the game. We also don't want a currency system for resources ala EQ Landmark.

 

SWG tech trivia: Every resource (including resources that players couldn't access but were in the resource table) that ever spawned was stored in the DB and put into server memory because someone might have harvested it at one point. Not a big problem until 5 years into the project and millions of different resources had spawned. The servers were rapidly getting to the point where they wouldn't have been able to start up because of this.

Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

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How true this is makes me sad. It really cuts down on recipe exploration.

 

The only really successful implementation of hidden recipes that I can remember is the spell system from Asheron's Call. Players had to "discover" their spells by casting them once. There was 6-8 categories of components with 10-18 different components that could go in each slot. The combination was different per player, so you couldn't go look it up in a guide. You just didn't figure out some of your spells and that's the way it was. Players who had the top ranks of spells were rare.

 

If memory serves it was super awesome, that was until someone figured out that the seed for the mystic combination was based on the account name and the whole system came crashing down. Shortly after a tool was generated, you put in your account name and it spit out all the combinations for your spells. Being a competitive game everyone had to use the tool because no one wanted to be missing the top rank of spells.

 

And this was in the days before wikis existed. Pretty much there was one or two forums that served a community. I can only imagine how quickly a system like that would fall today. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done. but the rule of thumb with cryptography is, it only buys you time, the code will eventually get cracked. Which really sucks for folks who never experienced a system like AC's spells.

 

Yeah, I was in AC from very early until roughly when that happened. I loved the personalized spell combination aspect; it really gave everyone the full exploration and discovery feel. 

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You are correct but in SWG this worked great because of houses and backpacks which would hold millions of resource. It wasn't infinite, but any player could have 10 houses with nothing but bags filled with more resource than a player could use in several crafting lifetimes(I know I did).

 

In a game like Crowfall where inventory space is much more limited and stack size is smaller that kind of hoarding won't be possible. Quality is a big concern for us because it would require the player to carry many different stacks of the same resource, since you would need one for each quality level. (ie copper 10%. copper 20%, Copper 30%, etc) A huge chunk of your backpack would be consumed by this. Same thing applies to different different types within a resource.(ie Diatium Copper, Codoan Copper). Combine types with quality and you have quite an inventory problem on your hands.

 

I suspect we will have to find a different route that doesn't bypass inventory because inventory size and potential for loss is core to many systems in the game. We also don't want a currency system for resources ala EQ Landmark.

 

SWG tech trivia: Every resource (including resources that players couldn't access but were in the resource table) that ever spawned was stored in the DB and put into server memory because someone might have harvested it at one point. Not a big problem until 5 years into the project and millions of different resources had spawned. The servers were rapidly getting to the point where they wouldn't have been able to start up because of this.

I think that having to make decisions on what you can carry would be a nice feature to have. It allows for excess resources to ultimately have a built in method to slow market saturation.

 

If you go into a campaign and you have 1000 copper that fills up your bags but, only 20 of them are really high grade...you might decide to craft items out of the first 980 copper and stash the last 20 in your vault.

 

Now, I can understand the technical problems of having to track all the different kinds of quality. Obviously a smaller company will have a harder time with database space but, we've also got systems and technology that are 10-100 times more efficient than 15 years ago. Maybe it would be possible with some kind of compression or archiving system (or maybe you could just dump the data from a campaign after the world blows up). Either way, I'd love to see some kind of way to differentiate yourself from others...either through quality or maybe tool specific buffs or thralls or maybe just an intelligence based experimentation mechanic.

 

This is all theoretical and wishful thinking but, you have my vote to make it as cool as possible! =)

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I think it may not be possible for all recipes to be or remain hidden, but it may be possible to make it so that some, or even just 1 per player, is what hidden ultimately means - unique. There are multiple ways to do this that I can think of, but  the result would be that every crafting character would have in their 'book of recipes' one which only they know, and more importantly, that only they can produce items with.

 

This would be done through the creation, via a table, of a unique material type suitable to the crafting profession in question. So for example after a certain level of skill, a character named Blair would discover Blair's Wood. This wood would either be produced directly from harvesting a particular type of tree, but cutting the wood in a certain way, or by treating said wood after it was harvested in such a manner as to produce the unique end product. As we see is the case with the allows, each unique material of this type would have properties it would pass on to items made with it, with the properties coming from the table and the name from the character's name.

 

This could lead to even further discovery if and when players trade their materials with others. Granted the effects of these unique recipes would not be terribly different from one another at the larger scale, differing only in degrees of strength or duration of various effects, but in combination they could make for some interesting results.

 

It would manifest in a similar way to what Oridi describes from SWG. Picture the vast palette of colors available simply from combination the smaller set of primary colors. It would make a nice companion in terms of crafting complexity to that of the character creation system.

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How true this is makes me sad. It really cuts down on recipe exploration.

 

The only really successful implementation of hidden recipes that I can remember is the spell system from Asheron's Call. Players had to "discover" their spells by casting them once. There was 6-8 categories of components with 10-18 different components that could go in each slot. The combination was different per player, so you couldn't go look it up in a guide. You just didn't figure out some of your spells and that's the way it was. Players who had the top ranks of spells were rare.

 

 

This actually does sound kind of cool. Although I can see it copping flak from unlucky people who didn't find anything good inside 1000 combinations. Random is only fair on average, it still produces winners and losers at the individual level. Careful design work could alleviate that. If the seeds were pseudorandom and the calculations for discoveries were serverside it'd be close enough to uncrackable.

 

Transferable knowledge is less of an issue in combat. You can memorise the mechanics all you want. You still have to be able to quickly make correct decisions based on masses of incoming data. In general player skill based crafting seems to be uninteresting minigames though, has anyone seen a good implementation?

David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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The tier crafting system is actually pretty commonly used in a lot of games :o. Honestly, this system, is just to encourage players to take the risks to goto Dregs dungeon if they want to wear the best armours and carry the best weapons.

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You are correct but in SWG this worked great because of houses and backpacks which would hold millions of resource. It wasn't infinite, but any player could have 10 houses with nothing but bags filled with more resource than a player could use in several crafting lifetimes(I know I did).

 

In a game like Crowfall where inventory space is much more limited and stack size is smaller that kind of hoarding won't be possible. Quality is a big concern for us because it would require the player to carry many different stacks of the same resource, since you would need one for each quality level. (ie copper 10%. copper 20%, Copper 30%, etc) A huge chunk of your backpack would be consumed by this. Same thing applies to different different types within a resource.(ie Diatium Copper, Codoan Copper). Combine types with quality and you have quite an inventory problem on your hands.

 

I suspect we will have to find a different route that doesn't bypass inventory because inventory size and potential for loss is core to many systems in the game. We also don't want a currency system for resources ala EQ Landmark.

 

SWG tech trivia: Every resource (including resources that players couldn't access but were in the resource table) that ever spawned was stored in the DB and put into server memory because someone might have harvested it at one point. Not a big problem until 5 years into the project and millions of different resources had spawned. The servers were rapidly getting to the point where they wouldn't have been able to start up because of this.

We were aware that SWG had database problems about a year into the game. Too bad they never got around to fixing that.

 

But, the big question I have is this: How can out total inventory space be limited at all? Everyone has a huge, personal continent of their own! I should be able to pack the caves in my EK, then build rafts and store stuff on them, or just litter the roads through my huge EK with piles of stuff. Seriously, it's going to be totally immersive-breaking if you guys say "Hey, despite having tens of square **kilometers** of personal land in your kingdom.... a place where you can build castles and all that.... you can't store many resources in it. You can drop stone walls, but not piles of stone......"

 

I'm more than fine with personal inventory limits. I always thought it was kinda dumb in SWG to carry millions of units of copper in my backpack, heh. If only we had some kind of "load lifting" droid of some kind.......  :lol:

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