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Anhrez

Is It Too Early To Start Asking About Crafting Math? Questions On Alloys

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We were aware that SWG had database problems about a year into the game. Too bad they never got around to fixing that.

 

But, the big question I have is this: How can out total inventory space be limited at all? Everyone has a huge, personal continent of their own! I should be able to pack the caves in my EK, then build rafts and store stuff on them, or just litter the roads through my huge EK with piles of stuff. Seriously, it's going to be totally immersive-breaking if you guys say "Hey, despite having tens of square **kilometers** of personal land in your kingdom.... a place where you can build castles and all that.... you can't store many resources in it. You can drop stone walls, but not piles of stone......"

 

I'm more than fine with personal inventory limits. I always thought it was kinda dumb in SWG to carry millions of units of copper in my backpack, heh. If only we had some kind of "load lifting" droid of some kind.......  :lol:

Perhaps each EK will have a bank of it's own.  I don't think everyone has a personal "continent".  I think each person "owns" a small section of a continent.  And that small section can be increased ( you given access to it ) by joining others land to it, purchasing different parcels.   I don't see anything in this game being limitless as far as what you can retain  unless you somehow earn the "right" to that "space".   IMHO, I see the EK's being limited to a certain number of items per parcel.   If you want to have more space for items you need to acquire more parcels.  

Edited by ellie

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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Perhaps each EK will have a bank of it's own.  I don't think everyone has a personal "continent".  I think each person "owns" a small section of a continent.  And that small section can be increased ( you given access to it ) by joining others land to it, purchasing different parcels.   I don't see anything in this game being limitless as far as what you can retain  unless you somehow earn the "right" to that "space".   IMHO, I see the EK's being limited to a certain number of items per parcel.   If you want to have more space for items you need to acquire more parcels.  

That's true. I kinda forgot about parcels. But everyone has at least 9, and according to what we know, that's about 9 square acres. That's still a LOT of space to pile up my wood and copper, heh. Mainly I just don't want the dev's to use inventory to drive the cash shop too much. Realistically, we should be able to store more stuff in EK than we will ever need. I want dev's to stop 'punishing' us for wanting to express our human desire to collect and hoard.


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That's true. I kinda forgot about parcels. But everyone has at least 9, and according to what we know, that's about 9 square acres. That's still a LOT of space to pile up my wood and copper, heh. Mainly I just don't want the dev's to use inventory to drive the cash shop too much. Realistically, we should be able to store more stuff in EK than we will ever need. I want dev's to stop 'punishing' us for wanting to express our human desire to collect and hoard.

Well, in Todds "middle" game we were limited to items in our housing unit.  And there was a "bank"  for storage.    Mat's or reagents as they call them for crafting can not be stored in the housing unit itself ( in other words, can not be placed out in the open as an item)   They have to be retained in your personal inventory or your housing unit bank.  Example:  deadly mushrooms can be collected.  They then are stored in your personal bank.  They can be transferred to your house bank but can never be returned to a mushroom form so that you can have say a mushroom farm with hundreds of mushrooms on your property.  Then are not an item.  It is a very elementary system , granted, but some simple principles are there that prevent hoarding.


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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You are correct but in SWG this worked great because of houses and backpacks which would hold millions of resource. It wasn't infinite, but any player could have 10 houses with nothing but bags filled with more resource than a player could use in several crafting lifetimes(I know I did).

 

In a game like Crowfall where inventory space is much more limited and stack size is smaller that kind of hoarding won't be possible. Quality is a big concern for us because it would require the player to carry many different stacks of the same resource, since you would need one for each quality level. (ie copper 10%. copper 20%, Copper 30%, etc) A huge chunk of your backpack would be consumed by this. Same thing applies to different different types within a resource.(ie Diatium Copper, Codoan Copper). Combine types with quality and you have quite an inventory problem on your hands.

 

I suspect we will have to find a different route that doesn't bypass inventory because inventory size and potential for loss is core to many systems in the game. We also don't want a currency system for resources ala EQ Landmark.

 

It's early, so forgive me if I'm not interpreting this correctly (after reading it like 6 times ;)

 

Are we saying that there won't be the concept of material quality? If that's the case, I hope the backers still have a chance to convince you to put it back on the table... including material types! :)

 

One of the attributes of a true crafter, I feel, is dedication. And that can mean a lot of things, but, taking the time to acquire, sort, store, prepare, transport, combine, sell, and trade very specific material types is a major factor. "Regular" players might call that "busywork" that gets in the way of their game, and shout for "quality of life changes."  However, these players might be used to crafting in other games - something that they "also do" and as such, was nothing more than a progress bar in most cases.

 

But for a crafter, in a game that offers dedicated crafting, with a system built for players that love crafting (not for players that hate it!) each of those options gives them another reason to be dedicated!

 

In that way (and technical issues not withstanding ;) it would be nice to let the crafter make the choice about storage... what to store, carry, sell, or scrap. I know we don't know a ton about the EK yet, but, that would seem a great place to allow for specialized crafter storage. Not to allow hoarding, but, to allow variety and options for the dedicated crafter... to select the right materials for the right job at the right price, at the right time!  Sure, these materials won't be accessible during a campaign. But knowing that I as a crafter have resources waiting for me to experiment when I get there, as I discover new recipes during a campaign, is an exciting prospect!

 

Anyhoo, thanks for the posts, looking for to learning more stuff during and after the KS campaign! (also thanks for stopping by the Gold & Glory podcast yesterday!)

Edited by lethality

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I hope that Crowfall's crafting system is one where the basic recipes are known and in the wiki but the best results are the private knowledge of the most dedicated crafters.

 

As soon as all crafting knowledge is in a wiki there's little room for individual crafting prestige.  The crafting character becomes reduced to a number, their skill level, that is plugged into a calculator along with the available resources that spits out the min/maxed result optimized for the selected goal.


soli deo gloria

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You are correct but in SWG this worked great because of houses and backpacks which would hold millions of resource. It wasn't infinite, but any player could have 10 houses with nothing but bags filled with more resource than a player could use in several crafting lifetimes(I know I did).

 

In a game like Crowfall where inventory space is much more limited and stack size is smaller that kind of hoarding won't be possible. Quality is a big concern for us because it would require the player to carry many different stacks of the same resource, since you would need one for each quality level. (ie copper 10%. copper 20%, Copper 30%, etc) A huge chunk of your backpack would be consumed by this. Same thing applies to different different types within a resource.(ie Diatium Copper, Codoan Copper). Combine types with quality and you have quite an inventory problem on your hands.

 

I suspect we will have to find a different route that doesn't bypass inventory because inventory size and potential for loss is core to many systems in the game. We also don't want a currency system for resources ala EQ Landmark.

 

SWG tech trivia: Every resource (including resources that players couldn't access but were in the resource table) that ever spawned was stored in the DB and put into server memory because someone might have harvested it at one point. Not a big problem until 5 years into the project and millions of different resources had spawned. The servers were rapidly getting to the point where they wouldn't have been able to start up because of this.

The Repopulation has varying quality on resources and they stack all the different qualities together. They go from F0 to F9, then to D0 and all the way up to A9. So each resource can have 50 different quality levels, and they have a lot of different resources. This system holds true for items as well. Every item has a grade from F0 to A9. So basically, they take the total # of items and resources and multiply by 50. That's the max number of possible grades. The important point is that it isn't exponential. The quality of the resources/parts used to create something help to determine the quality of the result, but the result is always within the restricted quality band.

 

CF can probably do something similar, but have only maybe 10 different quality levels per resource. Or if it needs to be limited further, have all of the resources be the same quality, but allow for variable quality at other stages of the crafting process due to player skill (actual character skill level and/or player skill).

 

If you guys haven't checked out The Repopulation's crafting system, it's worth a look. 

Edited by Arkade

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It's early, so forgive me if I'm not interpreting this correctly (after reading it like 6 times ;)

 

Are we saying that there won't be the concept of material quality? If that's the case, I hope the backers still have a chance to convince you to put it back on the table... including material types! :)

 

One of the attributes of a true crafter, I feel, is dedication. And that can mean a lot of things, but, taking the time to acquire, sort, store, prepare, transport, combine, sell, and trade very specific material types is a major factor. "Regular" players might call that "busywork" that gets in the way of their game, and shout for "quality of life changes."  However, these players might be used to crafting in other games - something that they "also do" and as such, was nothing more than a progress bar in most cases.

 

But for a crafter, in a game that offers dedicated crafting, with a system built for players that love crafting (not for players that hate it!) each of those options gives them another reason to be dedicated!

 

In that way (and technical issues not withstanding ;) it would be nice to let the crafter make the choice about storage... what to store, carry, sell, or scrap. I know we don't know a ton about the EK yet, but, that would seem a great place to allow for specialized crafter storage. Not to allow hoarding, but, to allow variety and options for the dedicated crafter... to select the right materials for the right job at the right price, at the right time!  Sure, these materials won't be accessible during a campaign. But knowing that I as a crafter have resources waiting for me to experiment when I get there, as I discover new recipes during a campaign, is an exciting prospect!

 

Anyhoo, thanks for the posts, looking for to learning more stuff during and after the KS campaign! (also thanks for stopping by the Gold & Glory podcast yesterday!)

 

I have no idea how this would interact with other planned systems, so this may be completely infeasible, but here's some thinking about how a system could allow for optional depth and not require everyone to devote all their inventory space to the 37 different grades and varieties of copper ore.

 

What if, by default, all acquired copper ore got added to a "proxy item" called "mixed copper ore", which internally acted a bit like a bag for the different varieties of copper ore, keeping track of what is actually present and in what quantities.

 

Whenever you craft with or split that item stack the actual ores are chosen at random from those available.  At low crafting skill levels this is all you can do, so the results from your recipes will be somewhat erratic as it depends on exactly which hunk of ore you grabbed.

 

As your crafting skill improves you gradually gain the ability to distinguish between the different grades and varieties and separate them into stacks, for example after 10 points in the skill you might know enough to single out 'rosebloom' copper and copper ores of 50% quality or better, but you can't distinguish between the other varieties of ore or distinguish the grades more finely.  Only a master of the skill would be able to fully distinguish, and sort, everything.

 

This could preserve the mystery of crafting while not causing inventory bloat.  The cost is the complexity and overhead of the "mixed" resource proxy items.


soli deo gloria

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How true this is makes me sad. It really cuts down on recipe exploration.

 

The only really successful implementation of hidden recipes that I can remember is the spell system from Asheron's Call. Players had to "discover" their spells by casting them once. There was 6-8 categories of components with 10-18 different components that could go in each slot. The combination was different per player, so you couldn't go look it up in a guide. You just didn't figure out some of your spells and that's the way it was. Players who had the top ranks of spells were rare.

 

Thomas, I still feel you all can put together a seriously awesome system along the AC1 lines (which was good).  Here's what I've suggested before-  

 

Go with a very deep and thorough regex type recipe system, similar to AC1.  However, allow for customizations to creations, things that make them unique. A more dynamic crafting system will do wonders for getting players to craft more and actually enjoy it.  How would this work?  You would have set recipes like all games have these days.  Make a sword, a knife, a helmet, a chair, etc.  Then you have abstract recipes that let you customize what an item can do.  Want a sword that grants +500 all stats?  Sure, it'll be really expensive and the crafting might fail.  Want a sword made of lumber?  Sure, but it might do poor damage and break.  Or a chair that plays Weird Al's "Fat" whenever someone sits on it?  No problem, you just need the right spell and custom sheet music for the song.  

 

Uniqueness is an inventive for gamers.  Uniqueness and the ability to create stuff never before created.  People can then share recipes and spread creations around the net.  All the Crowfall team needs to do is create some kind of relational db of costs/effects and map it to equipment.  Feel free to go extreme, too.  Maybe there is a 0.00000001% chance to craft a weapon that does 100x normal damage but may result in a character being made level 1 again on failure to craft.  The possibilities are endless... and should be that way.

 

Remember in the old version of D&D,  XP expenditures exists for item creation, spell discovery, etc.  Coupling base crafting with more abstract regex and then varying xp/skill point costs would create a fairly unique system.  Sure, it could be copied by other players, but the "player cost" mechanic brings out the real uniquenes.  And you could make it archetype-based, too.  For example, a Confessors with their fire magic may be the only ones who can craft weapons that do bonus fire damage or armor that provides fire resistance, and the more powerful versions of those things require huge sacrifice on the Confessor's part (say, 30 points of magic ability or however the skill system works).  Frostweavers could do the same thing with ice, Druids with support effects (run speed bonuses on boots), even champions and melee only classes could create "extra sharp" or "superbly balanced" weapons that non-melee classes can't because, let's be honest, a "grandmaster" warrior is far more knowledgeable about weapons than a "grandmaster" magic user :)

 

Of course, people may not like the "limit" that such crafting places on the specific character ("why can't my frostweaver craft the most badass spear the Hunger has ever known??").  That's fine.  I'm just using these as examples to show that such systems can exist, are cool, offer up uniqueness, and are totally doable from a development standpoint :) 


Gaunsaku

Elder, Lords of the Dead

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Going back to the OP: some of the math is obvious from the chart.

 

All 2-component alloys have a 25% combination bonus to final strength, with one exception.

 

Pure copper recipe : (.2 + .2) * 1.25 = .5

Bronze recipe : (.2 + .6) * 1.25 =  1.0

Sterling: (.2 + .8) * 1.25 = 1.25

Plated Tin: (.4 + .6) * 1.25 = 1.25

Rose Gold: (.2+ 1.0) * 1.04 ~= 1.25

 

I suspect the rose gold recipe is an example of sloppy manual work in preparing the graphic, rather than an actual break in the pattern. If that's the actual result, perhaps 2-component alloys have a hard cap at 1.25 strength.

 

All 3-component alloys have a strength equal to the sum of their components, with no additional bonus.

 

This makes sense: making two-component alloys gives you more bang for your buck, but three-component alloys are the only way to get the highest values. Crafters will have to choose between efficient production of adequate gear, or expensive production of elite gear.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Going back to the OP: some of the math is obvious from the chart.

 

All 2-component alloys have a 25% combination bonus to final strength, with one exception.

 

Pure copper recipe : (.2 + .2) * 1.25 = .5

Bronze recipe : (.2 + .6) * 1.25 =  1.0

Sterling: (.2 + .8) * 1.25 = 1.25

Plated Tin: (.4 + .6) * 1.25 = 1.25

Rose Gold: (.2+ 1.0) * 1.04 ~= 1.25

 

I suspect the rose gold recipe is an example of sloppy manual work in preparing the graphic, rather than an actual break in the pattern. If that's the actual result, perhaps 2-component alloys have a hard cap at 1.25 strength.

 

All 3-component alloys have a strength equal to the sum of their components, with no additional bonus.

 

This makes sense: making two-component alloys gives you more bang for your buck, but three-component alloys are the only way to get the highest values. Crafters will have to choose between efficient production of adequate gear, or expensive production of elite gear.

 

that's a solid math assumption .... I just could not articulate the disconnect in the 3 ingot combos.

But not sure how the process impacts 3 copper ore to 1 ingot :)


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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3 copper at .2 apiece would give you Primal Copper © 2015 Jihan at .6 strength. Probably not a great idea if Pure Copper is .5 for just 2 copper, unless that extra tenth of a point is going to make an important difference in your final product.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Do you all think the other crafting professions will use a similar system?  For a cloth profession you combine threads(ore) into a weave(alloy).

Or will each be a unique experience? Tanning doesn't combine leathers but uses treatments to achieve a similar affect.  For example

 

Chrome-tanned leather tends to be softer and more pliable than vegetable-tanned leather, has higher
thermal stability, is very stable in water, and takes less time to produce than vegetable-tanned leather.
Almost all leather made from lighter-weight cattle hides and from the skin of sheep, lambs, goats, and pigs is
chrome tanned. The first steps of the process (soaking, fleshing, liming/dehairing, deliming, bating, and
pickling) and the drying/finishing steps are essentially the same as in vegetable tanning. However, in chrome
tanning, the additional processes of retanning, dyeing, and fatliquoring are usually performed to produce
usable leathers and a preliminary degreasing step may be necessary when using animal skins, such as
sheepskin.

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Do you all think the other crafting professions will use a similar system?  For a cloth profession you combine threads(ore) into a weave(alloy).

Or will each be a unique experience? Tanning doesn't combine leathers but uses treatments to achieve a similar affect.  For example

Sure hope so .... as back to the Helm recipe the options to add a cloth and a leather piece adds a lot of diversity if their breadth is as deep as alloys. 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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Please forgive me for the silly idea, but why not implement a timing mini game for crafting. For example a well and spoon game with some timing interaction and some bonus to the difficulty based on the level of the crafting skill. With different output depend on the result, lets say good, very good excellent (critic), and the usual fail (retaining the materials) and big fail (you loose everything)
That way only those who love to spend ours in the process of crafting will produce excellent result, and the casual crafter only the basic one. And you change a bit the mini game depending in the skill, for example, for blacksmithing could be hammer and an anvil, and depend on your timing you could hit the steel in the correct place or you break the sword.. something like that.
 

Sorry if you dont like it at all, I'd love to see those kind of mini games again, like in the 90's with RPG like suikoden and similars.
 

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It's early, so forgive me if I'm not interpreting this correctly (after reading it like 6 times ;)

 

Are we saying that there won't be the concept of material quality? If that's the case, I hope the backers still have a chance to convince you to put it back on the table... including material types! :)

 

It's not off the table yet, it is just difficult to play through a scenario in your head where someone harvesting in the Campaigns has 10 different stacks of different copper with a few in each, and 8 different kinds of Tin, same thing with plants and hides.  While harvesting Disciplines do grant more space it is not that much more. So we need to figure out a way to make it work under the umbrella in which a limited inventory size is a cornerstone.

 

I'll just braindump out some considerations and we can talk about them.

Assume limited inventory with multiple qualities and types:

  • Player has many small stacks for each quality in their inventory.
    • This necessitates destroying low quality materials while harvesting to maintain space for better materials. (bad!)
    • Might necessitate a pack animal to have more harvesting space. (good!)
      • This means more risk due to potential loss of animal. (good!)
    • Encourages friends to harvest with you to carry extra. (good!)
      • High social interaction, makes it undesirable to solo harvest. (good for some, bad for others)
    • Killing harvesting players is less rewarding as you must now sort through an inventory full of varying quality stuff. (bad!)
      • Death is less punishing for harvesters as not much of their stuff is taken. (bad!)
  • Player has "ball of copper" method with various qualities and types merged into one stack.
    • Do materials auto merge into this stack as I harvest or do I need to manually do it?
      • If auto I now need a method to tell ahead of time what quality a resource is before I harvest or I risk the current quality of my ball.
      • If manual I just created another inventory management task.
    • Do materials average their quality out when merged?
      • If so doesn't this mean I'm throwing away all materials below a threshold value?
      • Do I put these lower qualities into their own ball so now I have several balls of merged copper?
    • Does the server track the qualities of each piece merged into the ball for later removal?
      • How the heck does the server store this?
        • Maybe behind the scenes the ball is a container with slots.
      • How do I break apart the stack and get to the resource I want from this ball?
        • When the stack breaks do it break into an item for each quality? (back to 10 individual stacks)

 

Walking through thought chains like this is a great exercise and I encourage everyone to join me. Play through the process in your head and see what pops out.

 

Going back to the OP: some of the math is obvious from the chart.

 

All 2-component alloys have a 25% combination bonus to final strength, with one exception.

 

Pure copper recipe : (.2 + .2) * 1.25 = .5

Bronze recipe : (.2 + .6) * 1.25 =  1.0

Sterling: (.2 + .8) * 1.25 = 1.25

Plated Tin: (.4 + .6) * 1.25 = 1.25

Rose Gold: (.2+ 1.0) * 1.04 ~= 1.25

 

I suspect the rose gold recipe is an example of sloppy manual work in preparing the graphic, rather than an actual break in the pattern. If that's the actual result, perhaps 2-component alloys have a hard cap at 1.25 strength.

 

 

I went back and looked at the spreadsheet and Rose Gold is supposed to be 1.5 str and 5.0 life per Hit. Looks like a error in the graphic.

 


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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People who like the dedicated crafting role are typically Bartle S's: they play games to socialize. Crafting hubs are full of chatter, which means that crafting minigames are the opposite of fun for the people they're meant to entertain: making me mash buttons in the crafter GUI is taking time away from the very important zone chat discussions I'm involved in.

 

EQ2 had a very highly developed crafting minigame system. Crafters hated it for exactly this reason: they couldn't make items and spam the chatbox at the same time.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Thanks, Thomas- 1.5 strength on Rose Gold matches the same 25% bonus we see on all the other 2-component alloys. Half Life 3 confirmed.

 

I appreciate the explanation on component quality and agree that in the context of limited inventory, material quality becomes problematic. What if we quantize quality in just a few tiers? Good Copper, Average Copper, and Bad Copper could be 3 different database entries without turning into an infinite number of quality percentage ratings.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Repopulation is handling the multi-quality resource stacks by putting them all into one stack that is organized by quality. You can pull one or multiples off the top of the stack.  One button combo lets you sort the stack with the highest level resources on top and another lets you sort the stack with the lowest level resources on top.  Not sure how much is done serverside but seems like a fairly simple mechanic. I'm finding the process a bit clunky as I'm actually using it. 

 

I would rather see more inventory space and more detailed resource stats than stacked resources.  I get that we can't have our 50,000 different SWG ores stored on the DB (RIP Tempest) but perhaps we can have inventory bags that only hold resources and allow us a few more slots to carry around mats.

 

A few thoughts:

 

"Killing harvesting players is less rewarding as you must now sort through an inventory full of varying quality stuff. (bad!)" 

I disagree.   I think that if folks are going to kill harvesters then they should have to work harder to get through their loot.   Harvestors will have given up points to get the skills to harvest that they would have normally used for defensive or offensive skills.  Having their killer have to sort through more is a natural check and balance system that makes sense to me.

 

"Death is less punishing for harvesters as not much of their stuff is taken. (bad!)"

 

Death is no less punishing for harvesters because they are not valuing the same things that a fighting focused player is valuing.  If I just spent an hour sneaking through a meadow to get to a fungi patch at the edge of a forest and I've got 4 shrooms and a little tree flower to show for it, losing those items stings as much as a fighter losing their backup weapons.   Not to mention the harvestor will lose their tools and clothing (I hope their are harvesting stats that we can put on clothing!)

 

"Player has "ball of copper" method with various qualities and types merged into one stack."

I don't like this idea.  I'd rather have separate stacks for each resource type.  Think about it - we're not going to be harvesting for that long.  And no one is going to hang on to their mats for long - we're going to grab what we can and then get it to a safe spot.  I'm thinking things like digging a tunnel and hiding mats or tumbling the wall of a ruin on top of a pile so that we can come back with greater numbers and get it later. It's PvP and so running around for a long time ingame with mats on you is just not feasible.  I'd rather see the separate resources and sure, I'll have to empty my inventory more often.  Adds to the game IMO.

 

People who like the dedicated crafting role are typically Bartle S's: they play games to socialize. Crafting hubs are full of chatter, which means that crafting minigames are the opposite of fun for the people they're meant to entertain: making me mash buttons in the crafter GUI is taking time away from the very important zone chat discussions I'm involved in.

 

EQ2 had a very highly developed crafting minigame system. Crafters hated it for exactly this reason: they couldn't make items and spam the chatbox at the same time.

Not sure where you're getting your crafter stereotypes but you're in for a surprise. Crafting is srz bzns.

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Edited by Oridi

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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It's not off the table yet, it is just difficult to play through a scenario in your head where someone harvesting in the Campaigns has 10 different stacks of different copper with a few in each, and 8 different kinds of Tin, same thing with plants and hides.  While harvesting Disciplines do grant more space it is not that much more. So we need to figure out a way to make it work under the umbrella in which a limited inventory size is a cornerstone.

Yup, that's why we're paying you the big bucks.  :)

 

I'll just braindump out some considerations and we can talk about them.

Assume limited inventory with multiple qualities and types:

  • Player has many small stacks for each quality in their inventory.
    • [omitted]
  • Player has "ball of copper" method with various qualities and types merged into one stack.
    • Do materials auto merge into this stack as I harvest or do I need to manually do it?
      • If auto I now need a method to tell ahead of time what quality a resource is before I harvest or I risk the current quality of my ball.
      • If manual I just created another inventory management task.
    • Do materials average their quality out when merged?
      • If so doesn't this mean I'm throwing away all materials below a threshold value?
      • Do I put these lower qualities into their own ball so now I have several balls of merged copper?
    • Does the server track the qualities of each piece merged into the ball for later removal?
      • How the heck does the server store this?
        • Maybe behind the scenes the ball is a container with slots.
      • How do I break apart the stack and get to the resource I want from this ball?
        • When the stack breaks do it break into an item for each quality? (back to 10 individual stacks)

 

Walking through thought chains like this is a great exercise and I encourage everyone to join me. Play through the process in your head and see what pops out.

 

I don't think I'd be happy with a quality-averaging "ball of copper" mechanic.  I'd rather see a reduction in the number of qualities available (including a reduction to one quality) than this.

 

Regarding the "ball of copper" as a quasi-bag, the way I imagined it anyone with the skill to distinguish sub-varieties of the "copper" could open it like a bag to see what was inside it and then remove the things that they were interested in.  Those sub-varieties themselves could be aggregates of things that the character doesn't have the skill to differentiate.

 

Some interesting play things emerge for me as I work through this, though.

 

Suppose your guild has a small quantity of very rare, high-quality, ore and a very large quantity of common low-quality ore.  You have an expert smelter, so you just store it all together in the warehouse and she takes out exactly what she needs as she needs it.  Then you get raided.  If the enemy doesn't send someone along who is a good smelter, all they'll see is a "ball of copper".  If there is so much that they can't take it all, then there's a chance that they won't grab the good stuff.  On the other hand, if their raiding party does have someone who's good enough at smelting then they'll take all your best stuff.  Of course since that raider has devoted a lot of time and skill points into smelting that means that they won't have as much spent on combat, so it will be a Risk vs. Reward decision for the raiding party.

 

"Uh, boss, I did like you asked and got all the pretty stones from da vault." <holds out a handful of glass "gems" and colorful pebbles>

 

When trading "ball of X" resources, there will have to be inspections of the product by the buyer.  Failure to do so could allow the seller to skimp on quality in some or all of the "balls".  Of course, reputable trade merchants won't do this ... intentionally.  [aside: we have no idea what the trading interface will look like]

 

Obviously I'm partial to this mechanism.  :)

 

That being said, now that I know that ACE has seen and considered this idea, I am content.  You (ACE) know far better than I do what it would take to implement such a system in an MMO in general, and especially in the framework you already have in place for Crowfall.

 

I've been an armchair game designer since sixth grade, but you people have actually done it.


soli deo gloria

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Walking through thought chains like this is a great exercise and I encourage everyone to join me. Play through the process in your head and see what pops out.

 

One idea which just occurred to me; why not make Copper Ore all the same quality... and then expand on the "types" when it is refined? This moves the inventory management away from the point of harvesting and instead to the crafting point. This could also allow the refiners some say in what quality the ingots they create are. Low quality consumes very little ore, while higher quality consumes more.

 

To balance this out, make the ores very heavy or not very stackable. 

 

For example;

Miner harvests Copper Ore, and gathers 500. This is split into 50 stacks of 10 (higher skills / disciplines could increase stack size). 

Copper ore is brought to the metallurgist who refines it. They choose to consume 300 Ore into low grade Copper Ingots at a ratio of 10:1, they also refine 200 Ore into HIgh-Grade Ingots at a ratio of 50:1. They therefore end up with 30 Low-Grade and 4 High-Grade. Metallurgy skills improve the ratio's, so a skilled Metallurgist consumes far less Ore to make the higher grade stuff.

Edited by M0rdred

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