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Andius

What Things Would You Like To See Given There Are No Primary Healers?

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You said we can fill more than one roll.

What kind of roll?

A cinnamon roll?

Ah, lol, sorry :)

Edited by shadowfang1992

Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Uh, so did you:

 

3) You can fill more than one role in CF, incuding healing and CC at the same time (see 1)

I wrote role.

 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I wrote role.

Sometimes I think the English Language exists for the sole purpose of forum correction, lol.

 

We have "there" and "their", "roll" and "role", "sole" and "soul", "its" and "it's"... So many chances for error XD

Edited by shadowfang1992

Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


i-3ZQNFxh.jpg

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Sometimes I think the English Language exists for the sole purpose of forum correction, lol.

 

We have "there" and "their", "roll" and "role", "sole" and "soul", "its" and "it's"... So many chances for error XD

It is easy

 

Their Role.

Roll There.

It's Soul.

Its Sole.

Edited by Cirolle

 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Tem·plar
ˈtemplər/
noun
 historical
noun: Templar; plural noun: Templars
  1. a fiery-winged arbiter of justice with endowed tanking capabilities in the thick of a melee, outstanding close range damage per second, persistent damage over time, effective crowd control, powerful debuffs, potent self buffs, reliable self-healing, devastating area of effects, and the flexibility of wielding ample amounts of both physical and magical damage with limited flight capabilities and mobility
  2. a jack of all trades that will roast your unholy ass and smites twenty wicked before breakfast
  3. a member of the Knights Templar; source unknown and presumed to be fiction as we all know that Templars and Knights are completely different archetypes with a fierce rivalry and would never work together

See also: paladin; angel of retribution; overpowered

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I like what they are doing with limiting the role of "healers" in this game. To many games people just go around with pocket healers and care little for dodging and avoiding damage, they charge in blind and rely on their healers to top them off. With this system players will get shields and buff from supports that will help them with incoming damage but still not let them be careless when running through a group of enemies. 

 

The trinity still exists in this game, just instead of "healers" they replaced it with "supports" who will have hopefully a more action based system instead of "click party member and apply mending juices". 

 

I am hoping to see a good deal of diversity as far as support spells go, applying shields, speed buffs, crowd control, damage buffs, slight health regens, and damage reductions.


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Varius - Veteran Member of LG

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Damage Healing a la "Vampirism" style effects. In Warhammer Online I played a Warrior Priest and greatly enjoy the idea of a character that can get stuck in and fight to support their allies, rather than standing back and waving their magic hands.

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Well,I think everyone is on the right path with it ,but remember they didnt say "no healing" they said "no fire hose healers" I'm sure we will see the following.

 

1- ground placed "wells" that aoe heal.

2- cc or aoe attacks that also heal.

3-a siphon mechanic of some kind " in the alloy chart one of the metals has a life steal effect on it"

 

so I imagine its going to be alot of on effect type of heals.

 

Honestly, I'd be surprised if we see much at all of #1 there. I don't think "no fire hose healing" literally means "no healing that acts like a firehose." I think the term is used to describe healing that essentially blasts the target with anti-damage, directly and swiftly. So, no that you couldn't have a wellspring. But, just to be clear, you probably won't have one like in a typical MMO, that heals everyone in the area for 30 HP per second or something, for 10 bursts. Because, that's basically just AoE firehose healing.

 

I'm quite enthusiastic about the 2nd and 3rd bullets there, because healing as a result of actually doing something else is much more tactical. Maybe you link two targets, and the more damage you do to one, the more healing the other receives, for example. The main "problem" with healing (it's not a problem in isolation, to be clear, but it's a problem when you want combat to have a certain tactical significance to it) is that it's just anti-damage. When you're trying to hit your enemies, at least you can miss, etc. But, when you're trying to heal your friends, you never miss. It just happens. It's set up that way. "I cast Heal, so you gain X HP."

 

If you heal whenever you successfully block, etc., or you only heal whenever you successfully accomplish something else in combat, there's a lot more tactical significance to it. It should make combat more interesting, and not purely undo combat damage.

 

It would honestly be great if all support abilities were viewed this way. Someone brought up buffing, and how you typically just bestow a passive effect onto someone else, and boom... they deal more damage now. Well, that's great, but you're basically a walking +damage potion. You're not really doing much. Whereas, if you actually had to augment their next attack on the fly, or even channel an augmentation into them for it to be effective, at least then there'd be more significance to what you were tactically doing in combat, rather than "make sure has passive, beneficial effects on them."

 

And, beyond direct healing magic, there could easily be a healer role that's simply not a primary/major role. It would deal with field triage "outside of combat." You couldn't really patch someone up with people still fighting right there next to them. You'd at least have to drag them out of harm's way, or be VERY heavily protected while you worked.


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I don't like the term "fire hose healing" because it's inaccurate.  Have you ever used a fire hose?  It's not exactly easy to control.  Constant healing is more like garden hose healing.

 

At the risk of promoting myself I'll post a video of the type of healing I like, which is healing that requires coordination between multiple people.  

 

This is a video of an ancient GvG in guild wars 2 where I take 30 seconds to set up a heal that I get one chance at or gg.

 

We take an ok engagement at 0:55 where we get two downed that we have to punt back or just lose the effort, but this means that the other team gets to regroup 5 or 6 seconds faster than us, which might as well be eternity, so instead of a regroup we just say welp, we have to take a straight up push on them with a disadvantage.  To mitigate that I pop my elite skill which gives me a group heal, but the problem with that heal is that it's proximity based, I can't just pick and choose who to apply it to.  We know who is low so I call the heal and those players-- while taking an engagement-- position themselves closest to me and they get a full heal while sitting at a silver of health at 1:30.  It's not completely decisive and I suck hard the rest of the round, but it's enough to keep us in the fight and win.

 

So, those are the types of heals I like, the ones that require some form of coordination with the people being healed and are high risk, high reward.

 

https://youtu.be/-lVmqtS01JE?t=1m2s

Edited by zoel

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I don't think ACE said there won't be healers. What I know they did say is that there were not going to be fire-hose healing, or healing that can overpower dps of any magnitude.

 

Right. When I say a "primary" healer what I mean is a traditional trinity healer who has roughly the same or greater healing output than a primary DPSer.

 

Non-primary healers would be known as "off-heals" in a trinity based title. I am fully aware there will be off-heals.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Team Fortress 2 has the best fire hose healing.

 

1) The healer has to remain within 10 feet of the target.

2) The healer cannot do anything else while healing.

3) The target receives only a heal over time effect instead of full health.

4) The weapon used actually looks like a fire hose.

5) Right-click to activate Ward mode.

 

Despite how quickly people die to guns the one and only healing class is still extremely required just to compete.  Where all other classes are pretty much optional.

 

In fact Medic healing Medic and Medic Team Invulnerable Bonesaw Bash Party is a high ranked meta.

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So much hate for healers :(... ho hum

 

Making ANY class role... more diffuse makes it less tactical

Making classes less tactical makes it hard to FEEL like you are contributing which leads to dissatisfaction and people playing other classes

 

This goes for any role in any game.

 

Imagine if the devs came out and said...

We dont want to see any pin point (fire hose) DPS

 

The outcry would be deafening.

 

Or.. tanks will not be able to withstand a frontal assault any more than DPS but their presence in a fight will make everyone take 2% less damage 

 

This is what is happening to healing... not just in Crowfall but in almost ALL new MMOs

 

 

Fact is for people who like special distinct roles to have a real impact on a game there are almost no good MMO options left

Last one for me was Warhammer AoR

I liked having to size up the enemy.. report to my group what I saw, what classes they had and who they were

I liked having to retreat because they had a shamy we knew and dropping the DK was not going to happen before their WE and Tank tore up our tankless heal less badly organised pug that outnumbered them 3-1

 

Now.. remove that healer.. make their CC mostly pointless or give it to everyone and....splerg we win because we had 3-1

how freaking dull

 

 

I will be playing Crowfall no matter what they do to healers

I love so many other things they have talked about.

 

I will hit the ground with a druid, then move to other support then tanks and so on 

However in the end... I will no doubt finish up playing pure DPS along with 99% of the other players

 

P.S. yes we may all be over reacting to the spattering of info we have but mehhhh this IS a forum

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Pretty sure supports will end up with more healing power eventually...

 

As it has been written in the thread, specialization is what make groups more efficient.

 

Healer is a specialization that is extremely useful in any MMO. Healing power should be toned down for sure if they want combat to be more deadly though.

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Or.. tanks will not be able to withstand a frontal assault any more than DPS but their presence in a fight will make everyone take 2% less damage 

This is what is happening to healing... not just in Crowfall but in almost ALL new MMOs

Fact is for people who like special distinct roles to have a real impact on a game there are almost no good MMO options left

 

I think you're misunderstanding the position these MMOs are taking.  It's not to destroy roles and their value on the battlefield but to remove the Hero from the story and insert someone with Flaws and Mortality.

 

There's little difference between a CEO and his CFO but they each play important roles in managing a company.  A standard SWAT team isn't comprised of three humans, a Kryptonian, and a vampire... it's just normal people with normal capabilities.  You can still have roles that are unique and vital without having superhumans involved in the process, making healing some full health swing, tanks able to shrug off an army, crowd control that lasts minutes, or DPS capable of instant one-hit kills.

 

In reality, the closest we have to a healer is a Medic and he's not going to turn you into a bullet sponge.  He can however save your life.  He's not useless and the military shouldn't simply scrab medics because they can't bandage a person to full health instantly.

Edited by Kyutaru

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No misunderstanding here

 

I dont play MMOs for a dose of reality.

With a business, employees a wife, children, mortgage etc, I have enough reality already.

 

Devs are responding to pressure from players and money markets

A perceived area of difficulty in design and implementation (and therefore cost) in any MMO is class balance

One way to take care of that is the GW2 way, give all things to all people and make nothing stand out.

No one can say their healing is less than some other classes when no ones healing makes enough difference to notice.

 

Who wants to play a game where their are NO heroes...

No chance to make a difference, now way to define your place in the world

While a healing role is only one way to do this many new MMOs are nurfing ALL ways to do this.

 

P.S. my Neurosurgeon is my hero and his choice of Anesthetist and Head Surgical Nurse saved my life, each with a specialised role... I love them

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I believe without healers it will force the party to actually use strategy instead of blind rush and hack and slash. Makes for a more lifelike situation.

 

 

I believe without healers one part of a strategy is removed.

What you describe above is only the result of a bad strategy not a result of available healers.

Anyone doing that in games with a solid trinity would loose to the team with a good strategy, even to a team with no healers.

Had many a great keep defense in WAR by drawing front line troupes into kill zones and locking out their healers till the job was done.

 

What is the point of a stealthy assassin in a game where all classes do DPS with a few heals and a bit of CC.

The assassin is far less important if there is no big ticket target for them to try and Kill or CC out of a fight.

 

Whats the point of a tank holding up a front line if your back line is all DPS with some CC and some heals... just like your front line is all DPS with CC and some heals.

 

If in chess all you had were queens then there would be NO strategy.

It is precisely the DISTINCTIVE KEY benefits brought by each CLASS that makes chess such a strategic game.

 

But mehhh Crowfall will not have pure healers so its a moot point.

It will not have pure CC or Buff/Debuff or leadership or ... the list goes on.

 

The real question is,

in the end will they provide classes with enough distinctive benefits to a group that the choices made make a substantive difference.

GW2 didnt, EQ next was not going to,

and a raft of other games watered down class distinctiveness to the point that who ever turned up for a fight, made NO difference.

All that matters is the numbers.

 

 

NB.

I am a huge fan of this game and am in no way putting it or the devs down.

I am a huge fan of my wife as well... does not mean I agree with everything she does.

Edited by steppenwolf

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