Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Andius

What Things Would You Like To See Given There Are No Primary Healers?

Recommended Posts

I think the point he may be making is there is more forgiveness for error when healers are present. That makes sense to me. I can't tank people through sustained stupidity but burst stupidity is often something I can allow someone to fully recover from in no time at all. With a bit weaker healing burst stupidity could put you out of the fight for awhile, and a major groupwide piece of burst stupidity could easily determine a battle's outcome.

 

Very tactical, very deadly. That's what I feel they are going for.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think steph's point is that he hated Guild Wars 2 so much that every game that even suggests the possibility of healer removal must be an identical clone.

 

While arguments in favor of a concept backed by genres that succeeded at it flourish, there will always be those who point to that perceived failure when it didn't even set out to make an interdependent party dynamic.  Surely we must presume that a game we have yet to even glimpse is doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past rather than learn from them.  Guild Wars 2 is not the hellhole it's painted as either.  Each class plays uniquely to all the rest like a hero in a MOBA, a champion in a Fighter, or a faction in an RTS.  ArenaNet aimed at making a competitive sport where the class you choose didn't matter as much as your skill at playing it, opting to go for differing playstyles instead of forcing party synergy.

 

Removing the Bishop from chess does not destroy the concept of Chess, it merely changes the meta.  Strategies were not founded at the dawn of creation requiring a specific set of roles to fulfill.  They were developed by human minds according to what pieces were available as part of the set.  Remove a piece and strategy WILL remain, only difference is everyone will need to relearn it anew instead of borrowing from past experience.

 

Truly, I believe the ones so adamant against change are merely unwilling to part with that experience.

 

I for one have already experienced the destruction of an archetype in PVP.  The tank has had to undergo treatment even in Trinity games to make him a viable asset, going so far as to turn him into just another DPS with a two-hander and stance switching.  Murdering one in any trinity game should be an impossibility given how impervious they become against boss monsters, yet in PVP all that armor gets penetrated, all that dodge gets countered by accuracy, and at best they have a few more hitpoints and slightly more durability than the DPS melee.  Heck, the original purpose of casters in RPGs was to bypass the strong physical defenses of enemies, making them a natural counter to the Tank archetype.  But since players did not like requiring a wizard just to defeat an armored warrior, sacrifices were made and you now have the Slightly More Durable Melee DPS archetype in PVP.  It's not just Tanks either... wizards surviving against assassins, healers capable of actually dealing damage like a DPS, we've seen these twists in Shadowbane and the game is over a decade old while being the basis for Crowfall.

 

I say this from past experience -- you'll get over it.  I actually enjoy my two-hander stance now and couldn't imagine returning to a world where tanks were nothing but immortal statues that struck with the force of a summer breeze.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I liked GW2 for a few months, but it got old fast

 

Your tank example is exactly where I think this is all coming undone.

The issues you point out and the changes made to tanks in "PvP" are what we saw in games like WoW where they were trying to merge the VERY unrealistic RAID game play with small group PvP

 

Tanks like healers have been much maligned in PvP and I believe this is mostly down to peoples experiences in games that tried to give RIAD PvE and small group PvP play in the same game

 

If you make a single character able to stand up to the damage of a 100000 ton dragon and a healer able to keep him up... you have a serious problem in PvP

 

Games like DAoC and WAR didnt have these problems because they NEVER aimed for RAID PvE game play

 

As an example tanks in WAR were CC and defense, they were almost indestructible but hit like a wet noodle. but if one was charging into your group you can bet he was guarding some nasty MDPS or out to punt/CC some range DPS or Healer that cant get away fast enough.

You could build a tank for DPS but that just made you slightly less tanky and slightly more dangerous.. it NEVER made you any good at DPS

 

Crowfall will not have this as it is not being designed for mass group PvE.

 

If Crowfall goes down this path and yet pulls of good PvP in an engaging environment that rewards tactical play... 

They will be the first to pull it off

 

 

I have played many many MMOS and almost all that have come out in the last 5 years

have little to no variation in what a class brings to the party.

 

GW2 is just a nice high profile example, TESO is another

Yes each character plays a little different, just a LITTLE different, hardly even enough to make you bother trying the other classes.

As I posted earlier, in these games everyone plays DPS and the only real difference is the range, animation and visual effects you get when you do your damage.

 

 

 

P.S. given most MMOs with a trinity only manage 3-4 distinct roles your example of removing the bishop from chess is not accurate.

removing heals is more like removing the castle bishop and knight.

But dont forget few if any MMOs now days have meaningful CC so there goes the queen

Or dedicated support... there goes the king

Or tanks that are more than DPS in plate... there goes um... o look its a zerg of pawns

Edited by steppenwolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now.. remove that healer.. make their CC mostly pointless or give it to everyone and....splerg we win because we had 3-1

how freaking dull

 

Actually it's the other way around.

 

Have you ever fought outnumbered? 2 vs 5, 5 vs 8, 10 and so on?

In a game where healing matters a lot, you can't do sh1t because the enemy team will make sure to heal any damaged players before you can kill them.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually it's the other way around.

 

Have you ever fought outnumbered? 2 vs 5, 5 vs 8, 10 and so on?

In a game where healing matters a lot, you can't do sh1t because the enemy team will make sure to heal any damaged players before you can kill them.

 

 

"Actually it's the other way around."

? you think that when there is no substantive heals, CC and support (class definition) that the team outnumbered 3-1 is going to win...

Not in any MMORPG out now or in the past.

 

So your point is... because you played a game where healing is so stupidly OP that you can never beat a team that has one, dedicated heals should be removed ?

Its about balance, many older PvP focused games made this balance work, almost ALL PvE+ PvP games gave up trying

 

The point of the other parts of a good trinity is to counter each other.

Even games like WoW (the game responsible for most of this healer hate) had classes that in the early days were design to kill healers fast.

 

When you remove the distinctive advantages of different archetypes you get zerg.

 

P.S. yes I have played outnumbers many times in many games... sometimes you run, sometimes you die and if the game has a strong tactical element to it... sometimes just sometimes you WIN and OMG are they the best moments ever.

Edited by steppenwolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you think that when there is no substantive heals, CC and support (class definition) that the team outnumbered 3-1 is going to win...

Not in any MMORPG out now or in the past.

 

It just so happens that the closest MMO to Crowfall in terms of combat mechanics and PvP features (Darkfall), had single players win against 3,4 or even 8 players. That was possible thanks to no heavy healing mechanism (which is what they described as "fire-hose" healing).

 

Sure there will be healing spells in Crowfall (like there were in Darkfall), but they're very limited in power as it should be.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darkfall is for all intensive purposes a LoS shooter with a serious aim bot hacking problem.

It also suffers badly from lag because of its LoS mechanics with players based all over the world

(ping from 20ms to 500ms all trying to hit each other)

 

There is NO indication that Crowfall will have the type of gameplay found in Darkfall which is closer to an FPS shooter (yes I did play it for almost 6 months).

 

As with all FPS games that have pathetic movement mechanics like Darfall (i.e. NO mechanics at all) you will get players who can rack up huge Kill/Death ratios.

 

 

While I may be disappointed that Crowfall will not have a healing class,

I suspect you and few others here who think its going to be ANYTHING like Darkfall will be far more disappointed when you find out how wrong you are.

 

If I had to guess at a game that would be similar to what we know of Crowfall at this time... It would be The Elder Wildstar Online

(yes thats silly but I think they will be close to a hybrid of those two games mechanics)

 

 

P.S. "very limited in power" for healing = just play DPS and actually be useful to your team.

O, and yes I am watching zbrush bake out Dmaps so bored out of my nut and posting for the hell of it.

Edited by steppenwolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darkfall is for all intensive purposes a LoS shooter with a serious aim bot hacking problem.

 

First time I've ever heard this claim.. aim bot in a game where projectiles have low speed? More like super-intelligent aim bot. :lol:

I perceive some butthurtiness.. :lol: :lol:

 

It also suffers badly from lag because of its LoS mechanics with players based all over the world

(ping from 20ms to 500ms all trying to hit each other)

 

Dude, you chose to play on a EU server from goddamn Australia. Did you expect butterflies?

 

As with all FPS games that have pathetic movement mechanics like Darfall (i.e. NO mechanics at all) you will get players who can rack up huge Kill/Death ratios.

 

Careful to explain? :lol:

How do movement mechanics (which by your claim don't even exist) make players have big K/D ratios? :lol:

 

I suspect you and few others here who think its going to be ANYTHING like Darkfall will be far more disappointed when you find out how wrong you are.

 

Nah, I already know that Crowfall combat won't require high ceiling reflex skills. That's beyond the point of the discussion, though.

High healing powers destroy any possibility of fighting outnumbered. Nothing else to discuss, really.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darkfall is riddled with aimbot hackers, no need for me to post links the the many articles and videos showing this. 5s with google will show you and 30min in the game will prove it.

 

I never play on EU servers and I dont play games with 500 ping but many people I know have to when its an MMO based in the USA

However your response tells me you dont give a %$#@ about the wider international community or the reasons why most MMOs develop mechanics different to FPS games.

 

Darkfall has less movement restriction and environmental relevance that the damn walk through camera code in unity.

Not having them allows one person with a slight advantage over others to dominate endlessly, again there are many videos showing this or just go play for 30m and see it first hand.

 

High healing power (however high that may be) is only a deal breaker if the game does not have any counters to that healing

CC, debuffs, environment etc

 

So many people here opposed to healing make it sound like you have played games that only had DPS and heals, with heals so OP that no number of DPS could drop a target...

 

 

No need to get snarky about this

Clearly you like FPS style games with classes having little to no impact on the way you play

I dont

You may like draughts, I prefer chess

Edited by steppenwolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't waste your time. Fenris here will defend Darkfall like it was a good game until the end of time. He's imprinted upon it.

 

<3 you Fenris.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't waste your time. Fenris here will defend Darkfall like it was a good game until the end of time. He's imprinted upon it.

 

<3 you Fenris.

Heh, funny because Darkfall players could swear the contrary.

 

It turns out that telling players who loved their game how much it was flawed and showing at the same time that some mechanics were infact great to those who hated it, is not a great strategy to make friends!

 

Luckily I am not here to make friends. ;)


y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heh, funny because Darkfall players could swear the contrary.

 

It turns out that telling players who loved their game how much it was flawed and showing at the same time that some mechanics were infact great to those who hated it, is not a great strategy to make friends!

 

Luckily I am not here to make friends. ;)

 

Well, not to go off topic, but it was a perma-bloodwalling, uncapped, badly optimized, laggy, plate mage clusterf*** of a game that the designers literally had to shut down and redesign from the ground up because it was systemically incapable of holding itself together as a functional world. Its community stuck to it because they were so hazed by its tough talking developers and their own sunk cost fallacy that they knew they'd look ridiculous if they admitted how badly it actually turned out after the assault they made on every internet forum imaginable attempting to hype it.

 

Its sole merit was that it reminded me why I liked quake 2 deathmatch, and why 16 players was actually the perfect number of players for an all rockets map.

 

Now, back on topic. I will have other darkfall conversations in the off topic boards if you like.

 

I'd still like to see unconscious states, deathblows, and dragging of the unconscious.

Edited by PopeUrban

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd still like to see unconscious states, deathblows, and dragging of the unconscious.

I'd like to see some of that too. Special deathblow animations would be awesome considering the diversity of classes we already see. I want a Confessor's deathblow to involve that brand they carry! I want to see them whip it out and brand the dead on the head. Or maybe use the brand to keep them from coming back to life (as zombies, I don't want to prevent respawns!).

 

@steppenwolf it's not that we don't want to see class diversity. We do! After all, there's already some diversity going on with the archetypes. Some archetypes have access to things other archetypes can never use. Did you know the knight is the only one who can use a shield? That's right! None of the other classes can do this. I think healing will be a very similar situation, where only specific arches can use them. No matter what, even if there are no heavy-duty healers that can keep you alive during even the most horrendous circumstances, there WILL be healers. Maybe they'll be like medics and can only heal out of battle. Maybe they can do HoT spells, or vampiric buffs, all of which have been listed numerous times in this thread alone.

 

I love my SWTOR Sith Sorcerer. She's not the strongest DPS in the world, but her heals kick @$$. Would I like to see a character as good as her in Crowfall? Maybe I would. I just acknowledge that it's incredibly unlikely that I will. Also, consider this: They are going to have some campaigns where the power magic has will be severely limited (I think one of their examples somewhere mentions the possibility of magic power being cut to 10% in some!). Even the strongest of heals are rendered useless under those circumstances. Then which is better: An OMFG healer who can't do squat to help you, or a medic-type healer that specializes in bandages, small buffs and, if they're really good at their job, healing deep wounds and lingering spell effects such as bleeding, broken bones and so on?

 

Who knows, maybe it won't even be that in-depth in the end. Maybe it'll be far simpler. But there's one simple fact to keep in mind: We don't know. Everything I have said here is speculation. All we know so far is that there WILL be some heals and there WON'T be OMFG all-powerful heals. That's literally all we have for now, unless someone has a link to more info on this? If so, please share, because I want to read it!


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


i-3ZQNFxh.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heh, funny because Darkfall players could swear the contrary.

 

It turns out that telling players who loved their game how much it was flawed and showing at the same time that some mechanics were infact great to those who hated it, is not a great strategy to make friends!

 

Luckily I am not here to make friends. ;)

 

Yeah its easy to forget that not everyone is pushing for the same game, nor do we all agree on what we want.  I quit Darkfall twice for two different reasons.  First I quit because the population was so low that I spent nights looking around for hours for a fight only to find none.  The second time I came back it took months of getting crushed to even get combat viable.  Even then what really got me to quit was how difficult it was to gear up.  I remember spending 4-5 hours gathering enough materials to gear up to the point that I was competitive, still pretty out-geared by the veteran players.  Spending 4 hours to gear up, looking two hours to find a fight that's over in a few minutes and seven hours later your naked at the stone again with nothing to show for it.  It took a couple weeks of that before I was out farming one day and realized how much of a waste of time that game was.


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah its easy to forget that not everyone is pushing for the same game, nor do we all agree on what we want.  I quit Darkfall twice for two different reasons.  First I quit because the population was so low that I spent nights looking around for hours for a fight only to find none.  The second time I came back it took months of getting crushed to even get combat viable.  Even then what really got me to quit was how difficult it was to gear up.  I remember spending 4-5 hours gathering enough materials to gear up to the point that I was competitive, still pretty out-geared by the veteran players.  Spending 4 hours to gear up, looking two hours to find a fight that's over in a few minutes and seven hours later your naked at the stone again with nothing to show for it.  It took a couple weeks of that before I was out farming one day and realized how much of a waste of time that game was.

I got to say thou.. DF created some intense gameplay - I didn't have the same experience prior, other than UO.. I hope Crowfall brings it..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having heals also creates a ton of lopsided uneven fights. Because heals are so powerful, if your group has a few dedicated healers while your enemy team has none, it's over before the fight has started.

 

This would then require all competitive teams to run with dedicated healers and it's always a pain in the ass when a raid party has to rely on the attendance of a few.

 

Also I find the biggest douches tend to be attracted to those kinds of roles because it always them to act the way they do without being blacklisted by the population since we "need" them.

 

tldr:

 

- Healing creates more imbalance and more lopsided matches

- the importance of healing gives unpleasant people an opportunity to play a class so necessary that the community has to accept them

- game is better off with no healing


 7d4g0V5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Double post

 

 

A-hole. Too bad you're a healer so we can't get rid of you.

 

I disagree with you, but I think it's all been said. Everyone comes to these healing threads already decided based on their past gaming experiences anyways. I've found pvp with strong healing (with real counters like shadow mantle) to be much more tactical and rewarding for whatever it's worth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Healing via blasting people with HP all day doesn't have to be a thing for healing to be tactical. And yeah, plenty of other games have recently tried to "do away with the trinity" and haven't done it super well.

 

But, who invented the trinity in the first place? How simplistic is that, to design around? It's one thing to allow for a tank-like character to be built, but it's another thing to design classes around such simplistic roles. "You have more health and take less damage than other people, basically just mitigating the DPS of the enemy. You deal the most DPS out of all three of you, by far, just because you do. And you literally just undo the enemy's damage on a constant basis. WOOHOO! The pinnacle of strategy has been achieved!"

 

Negative. I don't know why everyone's kind of accepted that, but it's silly. Sure, there are plenty of flavorful, fun things to do within any given role. But, for actual tactical play, your role should be MUCH more versatile. One class should dole out far more DPS than another under the right circumstances, while others will outclass him in other sets of circumstances. I mean, why are Healers and Support characters made to stand around augmenting everyone else anyway? Who decided that was an awesome idea? Everyone should get to fight effectively, in their own, interesting way. Not "Oh, well, I mean, I can occasionally hit an enemy with a decent-damage spell, but I'll never kill anything without the right combo of people."

 

It's just this whole PvE design obsession that's been building up for years, with how you actively play the game taking a backseat to builds and formulas. RAIDs nowadays are just huge math puzzles. "Okay, how do we get at least 15,000 team DPS per second, relative to at least 10,000 HPS of healing?" And sure, that's cool in its own way. But why is that THE way to make an MMO?

 

It's silly, really.

 

Yes, people saying "No, that's all dumb and there's no skill or tactical thinking involved" are incorrect. But anyone refusing to acknowledge that there's plenty of room for the expansion of tactical design is just kidding themselves.

 

There sure is a ton of specific info we don't know about Crowfall, so maybe we could start speculating constructively on what systems such as healing could be like in a good way, instead of consistently saying "what if it's like this bad design, though. I'd rather just have what I'm used to than that bad design," vs. "Lolz, healz are bad, and anything that does without them is good."

 

(There are actually people being constructive in here... There've just been a couple of pages of mostly argument about beside-the-point stuff).

 

Firehose healing isn't bad. It's just restrictive in its own way. Going a different way opens up options that cannot exist while everyone's having their damage undone the whole battle, by design. It's that simple. That's what we do know: no firehose healing. So now, what kind of awesome stuff can we think up, within that restriction? Annnnnd go.


This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...