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Andius

What Things Would You Like To See Given There Are No Primary Healers?

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Firehose healing isn't bad. It's just restrictive in its own way. Going a different way opens up options that cannot exist while everyone's having their damage undone the whole battle, by design. It's that simple. That's what we do know: no firehose healing. So now, what kind of awesome stuff can we think up, within that restriction? Annnnnd go.

To be honest, I think we've covered the gambit of ideas, which is why a lot of people started arguing. Personally, I love all forms of healing. I love playing a medic who can only heal with items. I love being the ultimate healing Sith Sorcerer who everyone tries to kill first because if they don't, I'll keep my buddies alive and they'll lose. I love being able to buff my allies with HoT, or have AoE spells that heal allies but damage all enemies caught in the area. I love being able to suck the life out of people just to keep myself alive. So no matter what they go with, I'm on board. There will be a healer in my character selection roster, no matter what.

 

I think I've already listed everything that would be cool to see. However, my theory on what will actually be in the game I've kept to myself because I didn't want to start an argument. Personally, other than the OMFG healers (a.k.a. firehose healers) they've already said will not exist in game, I think all other forms of healing will exist in some way.

 

Medic: Hello Alchemy Discipline! We know it exists, and I'm here to tell you that ALL Alchemists have the recipes for health potions on standby. What are the specifics of these health potions? Eh, I have no idea. But I just know they'll exist, and if I'm wrong, I'll be incredibly surprised.

 

Life-Steals: There's a Vampire Discipline, so no matter what, Life-Steals WILL exist. It would also make sense for this to be available for were-beasts as well. Will it be available to others without those specific Disciplines? Again, no freaking clue.

 

HoT Buffs: Honestly, do you think the Druid has NO healing powers? They wield the power of NATURE, people. I doubt this will be outside their range of skills. Plus, if there is ever a Bard character (yes, I know I'm obsessed, just get used to this), there will be a spell/song for that, it'll just have to be played out of battle or be easily interrupted by other players.

 

AoE HoT/DoT: This is probably the least likely to be seen seeing as it counts as "In Combat" healing, so don't hold your breath on this one. But I have a feeling it'll make it in somehow, lol :P


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Going back to the OP...

 

I LOVE restrictions

I like games where one class CANT do all

Dont mind games that have a few hybrids and make them essential, but Like to have specialists in that mix.

 

When all classes bring the same things to a fight,

who you kill first (or CC or block out of the fight etc) only matters if you know the player

and know that that player may be way more geared or skilled than the others on their side.

When you have millions of possible enemy players thats rare.

 

I prefer MANY specialists, each able to do things others cant.

Enough that even choosing 5 or 6 people to run with leaves you wishing you had class X as well

Forces you to think outside the box when dealing with groups of different composition.

When games homogenise all the classes then this is lost,

you no longer need to alter your strategy to deal with different opponents group composition.

You just smush on in their and focus down one at a time till your side wins... or looses.

 

 

But then, I like to play many different characters and I know allot of people dont.

The forum excitement in TESO before it went live,

over the possibility of only ever having to level one character

and just change roles when you needed was proof enough that many many people like this idea.

I dont.

 

So given healing is off the table

My last hope is that the Crowfall team make hard CC, soft CC, Buff, Debuff, Guarding, Scouting

and any other thing they can think of... something that MATTERS.

BTW Putting these things in the hands of all classes or even 80% in each class makes them not matter.

 

A tank guarding and soaking up 50% of incoming damage for a friend... matters

A tank guarding and soaking up 10% of incoming damage is pointless...better off bringing another DPS

Edited by steppenwolf

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A tank guarding and soaking up 50% of incoming damage for a friend... matters

A tank guarding and soaking up 10% of incoming damage is pointless...better off bringing another DPS

 

See, the way I see it, that should be more up to your actions than your build. I'd rather soak up 50% damage for a friend because I spend all my time in combat actively blocking that damage and interrupting people who are trying to cast spells at him, etc. I'd rather be "a DPS" because I'm focusing more on doling out damage, and not because the game says "Oh, you're a Rogue? Your base damage is 1,000. Oh, you're a Paladin? Your base damage is 100, but don't worry, you inherently soak up 50% damage as long as you're competent."

 

Don't get me wrong... builds have their place. But, I don't think restricting you to your role is it. I think roles should be more emergent from builds. Like, if I'm a Frostweaver, I should be able to tank. It'll be a lot different from how a Knight does it, and maybe I'll only be 80% as good at it as a Knight. That's all fine and dandy. But, I really shouldn't be incapable of performing the role of tanking, just because I'm "not a tank." Via the act of tanking, what I will not be doing is slinging ice all over the place and frost-burning everyone's faces off. Why? It's not because "I'm suddenly not a DPS." It's because I'm utilizing my character in such a way as to efficiently soak up damage, be a target, and otherwise disrupt enemies and protect allies.

 

I think lots of modern MMOs just let builds go WAYYYYY too far in determining what it is, exactly, you can and cannot do. It's too simplified. "You get really high DPS, because there's actually a DPS value, and we just raise that when you're a DPS class." Sure, some classes can do measurably more damage than others, but you shouldn't be doing 70% less damage with class A than with class B, with both their respective highest-damage-focus builds you can muster.

 

That's the problem with healing, in general, in MMOs. It's not that a healing role is bad. It's that, when the thing your class does is heal the bejeezus out of everyone constantly, A) you have to have the rest of the game's design account for consta-damage-undoing, and B ) you've created a class that is horrible at any other role.

 

Just because healing is a role doesn't mean it has to be a major/dedicated role, or a combat role, for that matter.


This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

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<snip>

 

Just because healing is a role doesn't mean it has to be a major/dedicated role, or a combat role, for that matter.

This is also very true :) There will be certain Archetypes that are better than others, but all classes will be capable of everything, just probably not the best because certain ones are naturally built for it. As I have said before in this forum, the Knight is the only Archetype who can use a shield. You can be a total Tank bad@$$, but unless you were a Knight, you don't get a shield. I'd say the Knight's Tank Promotion (Swordsman, I believe) is probably the strongest Tank in the game. Doesn't mean he's the only, just means he'll probably be the best. And the thing is, while there are people out there who love unconventional characters, most players I've run into (NOTE: this doesn't mean 'most players', just most players I've met) prefer absolute specialization, meaning that they're the best at something and they're gonna own everyone who says otherwise. Personally? I like experimentation, but I gravitate towards more specialized classes, and odds are I'll be choosing the Archetypes that have the best chance of mastering certain things.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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"I think lots of modern MMOs just let builds go WAYYYYY too far in determining what it is, exactly, you can and cannot do."

 

I am not being combative here, this is a genuine question...

What modern MMO has done this (with pvp)? because I want to play it (dont say Wildstar its %$#@)

 

They have almost ALL gone the other way.

The way many here are arguing for,

where class choice makes little to not difference to what you do in a game.

 

Whilst I agree your actions must play a big part in how well you do something

Deciding one day that even though you are trained as a clinical nurse you are today going to pick up the scalpel and performa a lapendectomy just erks me

 

I am not saying I only like tanks to be plate armor dudes with SnB

Or all casters should wear robes

I actually prefer a game that gives a REASON to use an armor type over forcing you to

I hate games mechanics that just cop out

and give the leather armor guy a buff when he "switches" to tank mode that now give him the same armor as a plate toon.

At-least make the damage mitigation methods different,

each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

 

want to wear plate as a mage?

fine but if you are not fit and strong enough to use it you will be moving damn slowly,

try outrunning anyone now

Whats more if you are fit and strong... how much time did you put into your magery ?

and bamo... in a good game system you have now created a battle mage

Not so hot on the magic as a glass cannon mage, but got some nice armor and still able to move.

 

There are many ways to do it,

I just hate the interchangeable game systems where what you are able to do is simply down to what you want to do at that moment with no restrictions.

For me... this kills and combat strategy and tactical play.

Why have your fast units run outflank an enemy and kill their ranged glass cannons...

when their glass canons can just decide... oopp time to tank.

 

Whats more I like strong visual clues as to what role someone may be in

I like to size up an enemy from range if possible... being able to do this in a game opens up the scouting game play

 

Whats the point of scouting an enemy if all you can report is...

4 guys in plate, 2 in leather and 3 in cloth but I dont know what any of them do.

How many ranged in that group son ?

No idea sir... 

 

 

P.S. I hate teleporting/charging tanks concepts, why the hell is the guy in 100lb of armor faster than the cloth wearing ninja  ?

 

P.S. 2 :) I prefer skill based game mechanics to class based ones, but even there you WORK at a skill and you USE gear that supports it.

 

P.S. 3 buwhahaha I hate games that give CC to all like candy, people asked for this in many other mmos,

wahhh wahhh they get CC why not me said the plate wearing 2xtwohanded sword wielding warrior....

Result insane amounts of mostly pointless 2-4s CC comming from everyone...SMUSH

Edited by steppenwolf

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@shadowfang1992

A knight being the only one using a shield is all well and good as long as using a shield has a REAL and substantive benefit to the class.

What so often happens is it has little to no impact on the game mechanic as they will give its benefits to other tank like classes and it becomes not more significant than the colour of your robe.

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@shadowfang1992

A knight being the only one using a shield is all well and good as long as using a shield has a REAL and substantive benefit to the class.

What so often happens is it has little to no impact on the game mechanic as they will give its benefits to other tank like classes and it becomes not more significant than the colour of your robe.

Depends on what ACE decides to do, it's just an assumption on my part :) Being able to take damage vs. being able to deflect damage might depend on what equipment you can use, as well as magic. But shields don't depend on the magic spell limiters of worlds ;) 


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Lephys touched on a good point regarding the reason for MMOs taking this direction.  Skill-based combat is all the rage now and more players want it.  But it comes at a price as far as perceptions go.  I want you to take your ideas of what constitutes tactical gameplay and shelve it for a moment.

 

Declaring that the Rogue class is capable of 1000 dps while the Warrior class is capable of 100 dps is a passive element of the game, something beyond player control that decides in advance what is possible with their character.  How much skill is involved with passively mitigating 80% of all damage thrown at you?  How different would it be to have to actually block, dodge, or parry manually?  A game like Chivalry has players do just that and the result is highly skilled gameplay where any class can defeat any other class even though Knights are about five times tankier than Archers.

 

Since it's an MMO and we don't have the capabilities (yet) to have massive servers calculating the position and orientation of thousands of players' blades in the thick of a brawl there will have to be some concessions.  However, I genuinely see the future of MMO gameplay being just that, once everyone is using Google Fiber and heatless CPUs/GPUs finally release.  In the mean time, some elements must be passive while others will require active input.  From the videos and explanations of Crowfall, active blocking will be a thing.  Previously it was merely a proc chance, something you didn't have to expend time doing and could go balls out spamming powers while negating 30% of all attacks thrown your way magically.  Keeping a high 80% mitigation partially resulting from passive elements like that AND having active blocking would just be too much power.  So mitigation must understandably take a hit.  But it's not just blocking... aim-based healing, aim-based crowd control, free targeting damage powers... you can very well miss your target.

 

Essentially, when elements of combat are switched from being passive to being active, the numbers backing them must decrease.  When players are given direct control of how and when they block, there needs to be some reason for them not to hold the button down indefinitely.  Healing being nerfed to a secondary role is just part of this process because instantaneous life replenishment makes Hitpoint management a passive characteristic in combat.  It's something your character doesn't need to worry about at all while your healers worry about it full time for you.  In an active skill-based system, health conservation becomes YOUR priority and players will shift towards avoiding damage entirely rather than rushing headlong into the fray of a melee like a berserk barbarian pressing buttons hotkeyed to damage (so much skill that).

 

I don't think any of us want something different as far as the roles go, we all want the tactical gameplay and role-based combat to exist.  The difference is in the numbers and actions required.  Some are advocating for PASSIVE gameplay where your gear, spec, and macro rotation (numbers) do all the fighting for you like a true RPG while others are pushing for the ACTIVE gameplay where having the best armor and the strongest sword can still mean you lose to that level 1 dagger rogue just like any good action game.  From the dev announcements, Crowfall is pushing towards that action RPG combat like TERA has.  The more combat is determined by passive number comparisons, the less the active factor of it matters and vice versa.

 

 

 

Another upcoming game that's taken this approach is Star Citizen.  They could have gone the route of EVE Online easily.  Tab-targeting, target locking, auto-firing weapons.  Instead, everything is manual aim.  Even the electronic countermeasures and "healing" ships require active real-time implementation that requires skill to pull off at all, not simply target a ship and press a button to disable its engines.  A smart pilot may even be able to avoid an attempted crowd control stunt pulled on them because of this, or physically block an attempt at healing with his own ship.  None of this detracts from the tactical sense of the game.  It only makes the combat different from what you're used to.

Edited by Kyutaru

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Arrrrrrrg

Big post and browser died

You have all been spared another rant by Chrome crashing.

 

Long short...

I dont want to see Crowfall implement the kind of bad ideas of tanks in PvP that WoW did

I would rather see them use the clever ideas used in Warhammer AoR when it comes to class design

 

PvE games with raiding TRYING to implement PvP

are why I think so many here are against healers and tanks

as they see the static game play and unrealistic TAUNT mechanics that came out of raiding PvE games

as going hand in hand with a Trinity class system.

They dont, WAR being a great example of getting trinity class pvp right (yes ig got allot of other stuff wrong)

 

TERA is a great game to see MMORPG action combat done well.

Just the combat, ignore the rest of the game :)

Edited by steppenwolf

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That's the problem with healing, in general, in MMOs. It's not that a healing role is bad. It's that, when the thing your class does is heal the bejeezus out of everyone constantly, A) you have to have the rest of the game's design account for consta-damage-undoing, and B ) you've created a class that is horrible at any other role.

 

Just because healing is a role doesn't mean it has to be a major/dedicated role, or a combat role, for that matter.

 

 

You have to account for tanks/damage absorbers/defense buffs/etc. negating of damage and CC preventing a person from doing damage; what's the difference really? It's all a big equation in the end, the big difference to me is that with no healing, or weak healing, it's much much better to spam AEs than it is to focus fire. Mathematically it's just much better to hit 10 random enemies for 500 than 1 enemy for 2000; healing just negates a portion of that.

 

Unless you are in a very small scale fight, healing will never keep up with decent focus firing (on non tanks obviously). Healing in just about every MMO I've played barely slows down an organized opponent that is capable of focus fire. Maybe that's the real factor: ppl that want/like small scale pvp hate healing, ppl that want larger scale pvp like significant healing. I can definitely understand the concern that it's hard to balance healers to be worthwhile in 50v50, but not pretty overpowering in 5v5. I think you could just make all the major heals area-based to solve that, but hey what do I know.

 

 

If healing isn't a major/dedicated role, and non-combat healing would be a joke, then it isn't a role at all. It's just something tacked on to a class you should be playing for other reasons. The absolute worst thing they can do is have a class advertised as a support/healing class that is weak. It would be much better for them to just tell everyone to play DPS. Either have good healing or no healing, don't try to put a watered-down healer that ppl will regret trying to play in the game.

Edited by thorogood

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I would rather see them use the clever ideas used in Warhammer AoR when it comes to class design

 

I also enjoyed the class balance of WAR aside from how overpowered Bright Wizards were and how stupidly powerful Order was in general.  There was no down side to playing an Ironbreaker and I was at the top of total damage most matches, unless a good Bright Wizard was around, purely through staying alive with its broken amounts of crowd control and survival while dealing consistent damage.  My Chosen felt more like a wizard tank who didn't know what he actually liked more, spells or armor, creating conflict within the class spec.

 

But those ideas worked well in a tab targeting game.  Having a guy chain himself to an ally and absorb half of all his damage taken WHILE being tanky and healed to full constantly WHILE his ally is jumping around casting in midair might be a bit much for a game with free targeting aim.  Ideas like having a Warpriest cause healing to players standing near him when he swings his hammer sounds great in theory, but it kind of falls flat when you remember there is FRIENDLY FIRE and players may not appreciate being anywhere near your kill zone.

 

 

The absolute worst thing they can do is have a class advertised as a support/healing class that is weak. It would be much better for them to play DPS.

So far they haven't advertised any class as such and have said there won't be primary healers.  There will be healing but it won't be a role.  There will be SUPPORT archetypes but that means so much more than mere healing.  Some people specced their Priest in Shadowbane for pure buffing because if there was one thing a Priest had going for him it was awesome buffs.  It had heals, they just didn't allocate a lot of points to them.

Edited by Kyutaru

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So far they haven't advertised any class as such and have said there won't be primary healers.  There will be healing but it won't be a role.  There will be SUPPORT archetypes but that means so much more than mere healing.  Some people specced their Priest in Shadowbane for pure buffing because if there was one thing a Priest had going for him it was awesome buffs.  It had heals, they just didn't allocate a lot of points to them.

 

Oh I know. Neither did GW2 promise to have healers, only some classes that were better with support than others. I played a Guardian there and liked it well enough. I would prefer actual healers and support, but I wouldn't complain if what they put together works well. I will say I'm not nearly as confident as some of you in that being the case.

 

I still don't see the difference between buffing someone with -75% damage and healing them. Healing is just a buff, and all buffs either make you kill faster or die slower in the end. Dunno why folks are so hung up on healing, but seem perfectly happy to have other support that effectively does the same thing.

 

 

And I played a rune priest in WAR. Talk about the opposite problem. They butchered any support synergy the class had forcing everyone into spamming the instant heal with high crit. A functional, boring healer is no good either.

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@thorogood

 

This is your mistake

Assuming people who don't want healers are happy with some other class mitigating a huge chunk of damage

 

Most who don't want healer dont want ANY class that has a distinct force multiplying effect in the game

 

Cc of 4s is a joke

Buffs that boost atts 10% are pointless

Damage shields that drop with 2 hits are pointless

The list goes on

 

If The special things a class brings are like those I listed above then a specialist class would either suck or have to bring significant dps

 

Then we back with SMUSH

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I still don't see the difference between buffing someone with -75% damage and healing them. Healing is just a buff, and all buffs either make you kill faster or die slower in the end. Dunno why folks are so hung up on healing, but seem perfectly happy to have other support that effectively does the same thing.

 

The difference is reactive vs proactive.

 

In order to heal someone for 10,000 damage, they need to first TAKE 10,000 damage.  Which means the enemy needs to be competent enough to blow their burst dps load on your target.  Then the healer simply waves his hand and all that work along with 50 dps cooldowns gets wasted.

 

But if you buff someone with a -75% damage ward, the enemy can choose to IGNORE them.  That person is now effectively a tank and focus firing the tanks before everyone else is generally a bad idea that you should only attempt when forced.  The tank isn't what's going to kill you when he's the last man standing.

 

Similarly, if you fail to buff the target BEFORE it takes stupid amounts of damage then the target is still going to die even with the armor buff on.

 

 

 

 

Another problem with healers is that they turn PVP into a Burst DPS race.  How many hitpoints you have only determines how small your window is.  Ultimately PVP becomes about Total DPS vs Total Sustain.  Mitigation and Damage buffs become king along with temporary (even short) crowd control because you're trying to destabilize the equation and tip the scale in your favor for even a brief moment long enough to down the enemy.  Damage over time is effectively useless by itself unless the sum total of all DoTs exceeds a reasonable amount of Burst DPS.

 

But remove power healers from the equation and sustainability becomes a factor.  Death by damage over time or slowly whittling away at your enemy actually becomes plausible.  Setting a trap that detonates on enemies out of your reach is actually viable because they can't just undo all the damage they just took.  Peppering an encroaching army with catapults, archers, and ballistae MAKES SENSE from a tactical point of view but it's completely pointless when the enemy can just undo all the damage instantly.  You aren't required to stay 10 feet away from your enemy hammering the maximum possible damage rotation regardless of your class because there isn't some critical threshold of healing per second that you must overcome for the battle to even be winnable.

 

It shifts the focus of the game from NEGATING DAMAGE TAKEN to the concept of AVOIDING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Edited by Kyutaru

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The difference is reactive vs proactive.

 

In order to heal someone for 10,000 damage, they need to first TAKE 10,000 damage.  Which means the enemy needs to be competent enough to blow their burst dps load on your target.  Then the healer simply waves his hand and all that work along with 50 dps cooldowns gets wasted.

 

But if you buff someone with a -75% damage ward, the enemy can choose to IGNORE them.  That person is now effectively a tank and focus firing the tanks before everyone else is generally a bad idea that you should only attempt when forced.  The tank isn't what's going to kill you when he's the last man standing.

 

Similarly, if you fail to buff the target BEFORE it takes stupid amounts of damage then the target is still going to die even with the armor buff on.

 

 

 

 

Another problem with healers is that they turn PVP into a Burst DPS race.  How many hitpoints you have only determines how small your window is.  Ultimately PVP becomes about Total DPS vs Total Sustain.  Mitigation and Damage buffs become king along with temporary (even short) crowd control because you're trying to destabilize the equation and tip the scale in your favor for even a brief moment long enough to down the enemy.  Damage over time is effectively useless by itself unless the sum total of all DoTs exceeds a reasonable amount of Burst DPS.

 

But remove power healers from the equation and sustainability becomes a factor.  Death by damage over time or slowly whittling away at your enemy actually becomes plausible.  Setting a trap that detonates on enemies out of your reach is actually viable because they can't just undo all the damage they just took.  You aren't required to stay 10 feet away from your enemy hammering the maximum possible damage rotation regardless of your class because there isn't some critical threshold of healing per second that you must overcome for the battle to even be winnable.

 

It shifts the focus of the game from NEGATING DAMAGE TAKEN to the concept of AVOIDING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

 

Same could be said for the healing

Fail to heal before target drops and you have done nothing

Go to heal and get CCed... target drops and you have done nothing

Go to heal and target gets drawn out of range or LoS or punted away... and you have done nothing

 

People wanting week or no heals have about as much of a leg to stand on as people wanting no pure DPS (yep, there are a few of them as well)

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Same could be said for the healing

Fail to heal before target drops and you have done nothing

Go to heal and get CCed... target drops and you have done nothing

Go to heal and target gets drawn out of range or LoS or punted away... and you have done nothing

 

People wanting week or no heals have about as much of a leg to stand on as people wanting no pure DPS (yep, there are a few of them as well)

 

That's not at all the same thing.

 

- You can heal the target when it's at 30% health and it will reach full.  If you armor buff the target at 30% health, it's often too late to matter.

- Crowd control can interrupt a heal the same way it can interrupt an armor buff.  But while healing just happens and is over, armor buffs can be removed.  They also expire, granting moments of vulnerability unless the cooldowns are short enough to allow overlap.

- Healing negates the effort that players put into damaging your target.  An armor buff merely discourages attackers and penalizes them if choose to proceed.  The damage they would have done can then be turned against someone ELSE in your group.

- The counter to healing is MORE DAMAGE, as if you weren't already pumping out as much as you possibly can.  The counter to armor buffs is a one-click dispel.

 

Truly, they're completely different beasts with distinct impacts on the gameplay.

Edited by Kyutaru

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Truly, they're completely different beasts with distinct impacts on the gameplay.

 

 

Never said they were the same

Only pointed out that in a well design system there are counters for both

Neither one is but default better or more OP than the other, its all down to the devs and the game balance

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Never said they were the same

Only pointed out that in a well design system there are counters for both

Neither one is but default better or more OP than the other, its all down to the devs and the game balance

I asked that balance not be brought into this a few posts ago because we're always assuming things will be tuned until they are right regardless of how the mechanics work.  In any well designed system there are counters for everything, regardless of how complex the system becomes.  No one here is arguing that healing breaks the game and makes it incapable of balance, we're addressing the EFFECT it has on gameplay and the type of gameplay it forces.  The negatives come from the metagame it encourages.

 

Each method has a different impact on the gameplay and I literally just listed some of the important distinctions that make support powers less of a safety net.  Healing is by design a stronger system mechanically which detracts from the action mode side of the equation and keeps the game all about numbers, as has already been pointed out above.  That in itself makes it by default more OP than the alternative.

 

Again: We are NOT discussing balance or whether or not there are counters to healing in this topic.  There are plenty of games that have balanced healing and made it a tactical element of that type of gameplay.  The developers are not removing healing from the game because they're afraid they can't make it balanced.  This is all about its impact on the gameplay experience.

 

Going back to what I stated previously... Healing is a reactive solution applied when a problem has already taken root to undo the mistakes while something like thorogood's example is a proactive preventative measure applied before you even have knowledge of whether it will be of any use.

 

Healers mend the mistakes of the past while Buffers plan for the future.

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" Healing is by design a stronger system mechanically which detracts from the action mode side of the equation and keeps the game all about numbers"

 

Disagree so very very much.

 

Healing in any viable implementation (not like GW2 where its mostly pointless)

In no way "keeps the game all about numbers"

I can honestly think of NO PvP focused MMORPG with a strong trinity that has resulted in combat that is just about the numbers.

Unlike the many many new MMOs with bland class definitions where PvP truly is just about who has the numbers.

 

However I was not talking about healing specifically in my last 5+ posts

I was talking about MY preference for Strong class/role definitions 

and why I think it would be a shame if Crowfall goes down the path of homogenised classes

Where the greatest difference in what each brings to a fight is the colour of their DPS

 

This thread is not about wanting dedicated healing in Crowfall

That has already been decided but the devs, its OUT

This thread is about what ELSE we would like to see GIVEN the lack of dedicated heals.

 

I want CC that HURTS

Tanks that can stand up to 10+ people

Mind control that makes you scream at your PC

Buffs that make targets 2-3 times more powerfull before they run out and leave them a shattered reck

Debuffs that drag that tank down to the power of a puppy

 

What I expect we will get...

every class with 5% heal, 2s CC, 5% buff, 5% de-buff

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Healing in any viable implementation (not like GW2 where its mostly pointless)

In no way "keeps the game all about numbers"

I can honestly think of NO PvP focused MMORPG with a strong trinity that has resulted in combat that is just about the numbers.

Unlike the many many new MMOs with bland class definitions where PvP truly is just about who has the numbers.

 

Yes, it does, you're taking a single statement out of context with the rest of what I've posted on the subject when I've given examples supporting it.  I'm not saying that you can faceroll your keyboard and still win as long as your gear is better than the other team's.  I'm declaring that when one style of gameplay depends on avoiding an attack manually while another relies on passive stats like armor and blocking there's a clear and definite difference in how important numbers become.  Strong healing is associated with the latter gameplay style, where your defenses amount to what gear and buffs you presently have on your person and that's it.  Tab targeting doesn't allow for much more while the active defense of action combat does.

 

What I expect we will get...

every class with 5% heal, 2s CC, 5% buff, 5% de-buff

 

Crowfall's devs are partly responsible for Shadowbane and Star Wars Galaxies.  Look at the buffs those games have.  This is not what we will get by a long shot.

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