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Andius

What Things Would You Like To See Given There Are No Primary Healers?

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Actually TERA has action combat

With strong healing

 

There is just no specific connection between strong healing and tab targeting game play, other than tab targeting being the dominant mechanic in early MMOs

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If you actually believe TERA has strong healing, I don't think you're going to be disappointed with Crowfall.  A priest's job in TERA is not simply to sit there spamming heals which are easily dwarfed by any tab-target MMO's caliber.  They contribute to DPS more than you may think through their support powers which are completely unrelated to healing or staying alive.  Healing in TERA is also not a solo effort.  The entire team needs to cooperate with you to receive your floor-targeted circle healing.  Attempting to heal a pack of newbies who are moving around as they see fit is a challenge.  In addition the players are responsible for supplying their own healing through on-hit effects and emergency potion chugging, the Priest doesn't do it all alone.

 

Elder Scrolls had a similar method of healing as did Guild Wars 2 yet you disliked both of those, perhaps because you saw lump-sum instant heals being used every 30 seconds instead of life leeches and Heal per Hit effects.  Same system, different delivery.  Don't ever say the Guardian and Templar lacked in the healing department either.

 

 

Now that we've drifted so far off topic, I'll remind you of what was under contention prior to your tangent.

 

The difference is reactive vs proactive.  Healing is a reactive solution, Buffing is a proactive solution.  When Crowfall shifted away from healing as a primary focus it moved in the direction of reinforcing the usage of preventative measures to avoid receiving damage.  It's effortless to read a combat log and understand what just happened.  It's genius to read a battlefield and predict what is about to happen.

 

If that still eludes you, I have nothing more to add.

Edited by Kyutaru

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Here's a good way to think about it, steppenwolf:

 

Imagine that there was a counter-healing role. So, you have initial damage-dealing, then healing, then counter-healing (only negates the damage that's been healed). That would get pretty ridiculous, wouldn't it?

 

- With ZERO healing in a game, all you have to worry about is damaging your opponent and mitigating incoming damage as much as you can.

- With healing in a game, you have to worry about the above, PLUS how much damage healing is going to un-do. Basically, you don't just die because someone managed to avoid/mitigate your attacks and take your HP to 0. You die because that occurred AND you didn't get enough heals to keep you from dying. It exponentiates the amount of effort required to kill someone.

- With counter-healing in the game, you'd have to keep up with dealing damage to foes and mitigating incoming damage, undoing the damage you couldn't mitigate from foes, damaging your foes enough to kill them despite the heals they're receiving, AND undoing the heals they're receiving while dealing with the counter-healing being used on you.

 

Put simply, damage is mandatory. It's not inherently countering healing, because healing doesn't have to exist. If you have a game in which all you do is damage and there is no healing, you still have a viable game. If you JUST had healing and no damage, how would you ever defeat anything? It is the undoing of damage. As Kyutaru said, for dedicated healers to even be viable, the game pretty much has to guarantee that oodles of damage will be taken. If you can effectively fight someone without taking more than 25% of your health in damage, and win, then healers are rather insignificant and/or "OP." They'll either easily keep you healed to full all the time, or they'll be balanced against only ever healing 25% of your health, max, in any given fight (low mana, slow cast times, weak healing spells, etc.).

 

The more the game supports full-time healing, the more the design has to require that everyone takes oodles of damage. How can the healing matter if it's not saving you from certain doom?

 

So, yes, there is very much a relationship between healing and passive factors. The more the game expects players to mitigate damage through skill and active control and not through passive numbers, the less significant/useful healing becomes.

 

That's the only thing "wrong" with dedicated healing games. It's not so much wrong as it is just a restriction. You simply cannot have both. If, as a Knight in Crowfall, you can play smart and block 4 different people's attacks pretty effectively, then allowing someone to stand behind you and heal as their primary role would make you invincible. So, either you have to not get to block so much (detracting from the active tanking role), or healing has to get cut down a bit to a more secondary/minor thing. You cannot have both. That's just how reality works.

 

So, simply put, IF you want people to be able to mitigate damage themselves, via tactical, active means, then healing must naturally be toned down. It's not "the" right way to do it. It's just a way to do it, that cannot be done without that restriction.

 

Lastly, healing in general entailing a more minor role does not in ANY way mean that everyone gets homogenized. Just because a class (or archetype, or discipline, in the case of Crowfall) gets the ability to heal someone 15% per 5 minutes, instead of 300% doesn't mean everyone suddenly gets healing abilities. Just because one person gets 5 abilities instead of 30 doesn't mean the other 25 go to all the other classes. GW2 tried to spread out the healing of their own accord. They weren't forced to do that by the reduction in dedicated healing.

Edited by Lephys

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You misunderstand my position.

 

I get your arguments.

I just dont agree with them.

 

Providing endless examples of broken game mechanics to prove your point, only demonstrates your lack of understanding.

 

When i say "I PREFER" or "I THINK" thats all it is

My preference and what I think

 

You disagree

No problem

 

I just hope the ideas you guys have expressed are NOTHING like the ideas the devs implement.

Only time will tell.

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I'd think eating food to heal would be a pretty good way to handle things in this game given the seasons.  As winter approaches there would be less and less food to heal with, so everyone will be forced to play more cautiously until time is up.  Potions would be good for on the spot quick heals, but it would be nice if potions could only heal damage done within a specific time frame during active combat, like a quick recover against grazing attacks.

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You misunderstand my position.

 

I get your arguments.

I just dont agree with them.

 

Unfortunately, the point I'm making is one of reason, and not of preference. So, it doesn't quite work like that. If I tell you red is darker than yellow, which color you prefer has no bearing on the truth of that relationship.

 

The relationship between powerful, constant/dedicated healing and the rest of an MMORPG's design is a real, actual thing that exists regardless of whether or not you or I were ever even born, much less talked about it on this page. I'm not telling you this to somehow be righter than you, like that makes me better than you or something. This isn't about who's correct. It's about what's correct. Who's correct and who isn't is purely circumstantial.

 

If the devs are going to go with limited healing (which they already are planning to, it would seem), then it's best to understand why they're doing so. And hopefully it's more than simple preference, or one Archetype will have 12 million HP, while all the others have 10, just because the devs prefer the numbers.

 

And, I'm sorry, but if you understood the point we've been trying to make clear to you, then you wouldn't be saying things like "I hope what the devs come up with is NOTHING like what you guys are talking about!", because that doesn't even make any sense. What we're talking about is already what the devs are talking about. You expressed extreme concern for this idea of limited healing, as if it didn't make sense to you. This whole time, you've been acting as though it's unreasonable and/or inherently bad to have limited healing, citing things like class homogenization, etc. Even though those things are completely separate things. Even if you eliminate the healer role completely, that in no way makes all the other classes more the same. If you had healers, and non-healers before, now you just have non-healers. So, unless healing was the only thing differentiating the classes, they're still just as different as before, only the whole role pool is down a role now.

 

Luckily, they aren't getting rid of healing. They're just restructuring it to support their different design that doesn't function with powerful waterguns filled with LifeJuice. And there are many interesting ways to do this that aren't any of the ways you've cited as bad/unwanted designs. That is truth. Simple truth. You can disagree with it if you'd like, but I can just as easily disagree that you disagree, and that won't mean that you agree any more than it'll mean the above is not truth.


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"And, I'm sorry, but if you understood the point we've been trying to make clear to you, then you wouldn't be saying things like "I hope what the devs come up with is NOTHING like what you guys are talking about!", because that doesn't even make any sense. What we're talking about is already what the devs are talking about. You expressed extreme concern for this idea of limited healing,"

 

 

A. At least quote what I actually wrote rather than verballing me.

B. In this thread any mention of healing I have made is either a rebuttal to stupid comments like, Dedicated healing goes hand in hand with tab targeting mechanics.

Or as an example of pvp mechanics that had strong healing/tanking/support classes.

 

As for "What we're talking about is already what the devs are talking about"

No it isnt.

The devs have made vague reference to TERA and Wildstar combat, both games with a STRONG trinity so nothing like the class/skill ideas put forward by those I have been disagreeing with.

 

Other than that we know very little about what the devs are doing so I stick with my previous statement

 

"I just hope the ideas you guys have expressed are NOTHING like the ideas the devs implement."

Edited by steppenwolf

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The devs have made vague reference to TERA and Wildstar combat, both games with a STRONG trinity so nothing like the class/skill ideas put forward by those I have been disagreeing with.

 

Other than that we know very little about what the devs are doing so I stick with my previous statement

 

"I just hope the ideas you guys have expressed are NOTHING like the ideas the devs implement."

Oh dear.

 

I think that the FAQ's are pretty clear about healers in the game, the trinity, and how they're handling healing overall.

 

I'm not sure how the discussion got this far without the dev's actual statements coming into play but here we go:

 

The FAQ's that follow come from here - http://crowfall.com/#/faq/54ca4668bffce6644cb33809

 

5. Does the game use the “trinity system” of class balance (tank, DPS, and healer)?

No. Some elements, yes, of course. But overall, not really. 

We have characters that are more offensive. We have characters that are more defensive. We have characters with support powers. But we made the game purposefully light on in-combat healing, to make it more deadly.

 

And remember, we’ve opened up the character customization options (through Promotion classes and Disciplines) to make each character a “mixed bag” of skills and powers. Each archetype starts with pre-disposition towards a certain playstyle, but after that, the game system really opens up and allows you to adapt your character any way you like.

 

6. Why de-emphasize combat healing?

Combat healing effectively adds a multiplier to each combatant’s effective hit points. A defender isn’t just managing one health bar, his “effective” health pool is = his personal health bar * powers driven by the mana pool of every healer actively supporting him. This makes a lot of sense for games that focus around PvE combat where the monsters have thousands of hit points – especially raids.  It makes less sense in a game focused on skill-based player-versus-player combat.

 

7. You don't have Healer? That's what I play!

Our intent is for the support archetypes to have key buffs, debuffs, and physics related powers at a cost of damage or defensive capability. That isn't to say there won't be healing.  There will be options with Archetypes and Disciplines to pick up healing powers. We just didn't want to make the traditional fire hose style healer that most "trinity" combat systems use.


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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@oridi

 

And all others who are getting CONFUSED about my point

 

I know healing is not a roll in Crowfall

I have been talking about my ideas for OTHER class/skill features and my fear that they may water them all down as so many other games have

 

In that conversation the nature of other games and how they handle things gets brought up

Naturally healing gets a mention in relation to those games as there are NO examples of solid trinity games without pure healing classes (that I know of)

There are however... examples of action RPGs with out tab targeting that DO have a solid class/skill trinity

 

please READ in context before making assumptions.

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@oridi

 

And all others who are getting CONFUSED about my point

 

I know healing is not a roll in Crowfall

I have been talking about my ideas for OTHER class/skill features and my fear that they may water them all down as so many other games have

 

In that conversation the nature of other games and how they handle things gets brought up

Naturally healing gets a mention in relation to those games as there are NO examples of solid trinity games without pure healing classes (that I know of)

There are however... examples of action RPGs with out tab targeting that DO have a solid class/skill trinity

 

please READ in context before making assumptions.

Hmm. Well then my apologies for misinterpreting your post that I quoted.  I read through quite a bit and found a seeming attachment to the trinity and a dismissal of what the devs had already established.  My bad.


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@oridi

No need to apologise, this is a forum :)

 

"dismissal of what the devs had already established."

 

Unless they have said they are going down the GW2 path of class homogenisation

where what class impacts mostly on is the animations of your DPS.

​With variations between classes so minor that you are basically all DPS.

 

Then I have not dismissed what the devs have already said.

 

​I was disappointed in not having a dedicated healer and discussed this at length in the dedicated healer thread.

​Now I am living in hope that they dont abandon Class specializations to the extent that they are purely cosmetic.

 

Some here seam to be of the opinion that action based game play and strong class/skill definitions cant live together, this is where the TERA example comes in

It just so happens TERA has a dedicated healer as well, and yet they manage to have very deadly PvP that does not always go the way of the team with the most numbers.

 

Its just a shame that outside the combat, most other things in TERA blow chunks

Edited by steppenwolf

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I just don't think that the definition of "strong class/skills" needs to be as rigid as TERA has it in order to be really enjoyable.

 

Yes, having a specific skill set that is balanced against the other classes makes things fun and skill trees in TERA allow for a bit of diversity while keeping a well defined structure in place.

 

But the CF approach of "give folks a lot of different options and let them shoot their own foot until they figure it out" has its own glorious fun as well.

I think that the core of each archetype does have some specialization.  We're starting with basic advantages and disadvantages based on the archetype chosen.  From that point on we will be able to add a wide range of skills and abilities and create pretty unique builds (which are then likely to be copied if successful until a new wowo look at that build comes along to replace it- builds as fashion fads ftw).  

So you're right in that a centaur built by one person may share very few skills and traits with another centaur by the time they've upped their skills to the level they want.  Since there's no levels in CF per se - only skill progression - how successful a player is will be determined by their skill in fighting, their ability to choose/improve their character skills, and their connections.

To me this means that the preset build in TERA starts to almost look like it's a bit easy.  TERA success is determined by skill in fighting and the ability to fine tune an existing, preset build.  CF seems to require a much greater investment of time and thought to get your character to peak performance levels.

 

I usually play a healer - in fact my mains have been healers in every game I've played before CF showed up.  I joke about being queen of the snowflakes but I am really quite a gonzo.  I've had to work hard to see the value in CF's approach to character builds so I get how alien and just odd it seems.  I hope you keep poking at it and frowning until it shifts into focus for you as IMO it's actually a rich, challenging, amazing approach.


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Alright, so, steppenwolf just doesn't like the idea of non-dedicated healing. I guess we can just keep discussing the actual topic of this thread with his preferential commentary in-between, and fight the urge to actually respond to it in a discussive fashion, since he's not actually trying to argue against anything we're saying. Sorry, steppenwolf. Carry on, u_u...

 

So, no firehose healing, no people primarily healing all the time... okay, but the healing that will exist should probably fit with the tactical combat, right? What makes healing the most supportive of that? I'm just gonna brainstorm some ideas here:

  • What if you had a healing ability that was sort of like a life-steal, that you could cast on whomever, and it would heal them for X% of the damage they dealt within an X-second period, but only at the END of that period? So, instead of "I hit you, and I just got 20 HP from that hit," etc. one could potentially heal a good bit if they perform well, but would also need to consider surviving that period of performance to get the heal, rather than being fueled by their own performance, real time.
  • What about an AoE ground-targeted healing circle that ticks up healing counters on you, delivering a more effective heal for each additional counter you have (up to some maximum)? This way, it's not just a guaranteed constant flow of good healing. You have to actually stay within the circle to get the most effective benefit from it, for the duration.
  • What if there was a system of maximum HP reduction that slowly "healed" itself back up to full? So, if you have 100HP, maybe you get hit for 50 damage, and your effective max drops to 75HP from that hit. So, whatever healing abilities are present in the game, maybe you can get slapped with a burst heal of some kind, but it can only heal you from 50 back up to 75HP. Basically, you could have almost as much healing as you wanted, and you could still never be fully-sustained by healing (or even close). Maybe you'd regain MHP (maxHP) per second or something (just for example). so that, 25 seconds after you took that huge hit, you could be healed to full again by whatever healing effects: regen, direct healing, lifesteal, etc. This type of system would very abstractly represent the idea of wounds. And maybe there'd be no in-combat way to restore MaxHP (other than its slow, natural regen), but, outside of combat, you could use more medic-style means' of healing to "treat wounds." And, when I say "out of combat," I don't mean that some artificial thing would prevent you from using it near or around combat. I just mean that it wouldn't be very practical to use while you were actually still fighting, unlike typical healing spells and the like in the midst of combat. Maybe bandaging your wounds and/or applying poultices would require approximately 15-20 seconds of you and your medic remaining still and being locked into an animation.
I dunno, I definitely think that having the opportunity to get your heavily wounded out of the fight before they actually die, and patch them up (at the cost of time and personnel, and resources spent on defending them rather than full-out pushing the attack, etc.) would add a ton to the game and would fit right in with the scale of conflict in Crowfall. Especially in large sieges and such.

 

I also don't think no primary healers has to mean that no one ever focuses on healing as a whole discipline or something, or as a role in the grand scheme of things. It could just mean that the healing role isn't the constant "undo as much damage as you can as efficiently as possible while everyone's fighting" role that we typically see. It might be a secondary role now, but people could still choose it and still be very significant in that role.

Edited by Lephys

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"Alright, so, steppenwolf just doesn't like the idea of non-dedicated healing. I guess we can just keep discussing the actual topic of this thread with his preferential commentary in-between, and fight the urge to actually respond to it in a discussive fashion, since he's not actually trying to argue against anything we're saying. Sorry, steppenwolf. Carry on, u_u..."

 

A clear demonstration of comprehension deficit disorder.

 

I dont like the idea of homogenised classes where the effect of taking one class over the other is about as significant as your choice of shoes

Your inability to grasp that and continued reference to me and healing is your failing not mine.

My talking about healing in THIS thread has only been in the context of this discussion or as responses to comments by others

 

 

When classes/skills/builds make little difference there is a lack of tactics and strategy inherent in the core game mechanic.

Once that happens the devs are left only with environmental design and larger game mechanics to force tactical game play.

 

Talking about HOW the little healing Crowfall will have may work, is pointless.

Its not going to be significant so how they implement it will be equally insignificant.

Like crafting in WoW... its there, its time consuming and you can do it if you want... but its irrelevant.

 

If in the end the knight class has a shield but it offers nothing more than some passive buff they give to 3 other classes, then it is COSMETIC at best.

This is the path of GW2 and TESO

To a lesser extent this is the path of SWTOR... sure you can play a tank class...but mehhh why bother (pvp)

As a result, PvP in these games is mostly formless, mass groups of players smashing into each other with the largest group winning.

 

In TERA however, PvP when constrained by the environment becomes very tactical and good group organisation makes a massive difference to the result.

THey have some mobility issues that make the open areas as bad for PvP as TESO

Edited by steppenwolf

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"I dunno, I definitely think that having the opportunity to get your heavily wounded out of the fight before they actually die, and patch them up (at the cost of time and personnel, and resources spent on defending them rather than full-out pushing the attack, etc.) would add a ton to the game and would fit right in with the scale of conflict in Crowfall. Especially in large sieges and such."

 

 

You may like that idea... but who do you think is going to play characters that stay OUT of combat, just to patch you up and get you back in the fight... this is WORSE than any EQ PvE fire hose healer class

Edited by steppenwolf

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You may like that idea... but who do you think is going to play characters that stay OUT of combat, just to patch you up and get you back in the fight... this is WORSE than any EQ PvE fire hose healer class

 

Having people sit back a bit in sieges in order to summon / heal / etc people is a pretty common strategy, and was a mainstay in Shadowbane. It's really not all that big of a deal, in the grand scheme of 'boring things done to help your guild win a siege'.


 

 

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A clear demonstration of comprehension deficit disorder.

 

I dont like the idea of homogenised classes where the effect of taking one class over the other is about as significant as your choice of shoes

Your inability to grasp that and continued reference to me and healing is your failing not mine.

My talking about healing in THIS thread has only been in the context of this discussion or as responses to comments by others

I'm sorry, but the reasonable expectations of my comprehension are based on what you type, not what you mean. If I talk about healing, and you respond with "when classes become homogenized, that's bad," I don't know how else to take that. It's the equivalent of you saying to a friend "Hey, let's go to the store," and your friend responding "Okay, but I don't wanna get wet." Would you not assume your friend feels that they have some chance of getting wet from the act of going to the store? Maybe you'd ask "Oh, is it raining?" What if your friend was like "LOLZ! Nah dude! I just wanted you to know that I have no desire to get water on myself right now! Gyah, I wasn't talking about anything we were doing!"

 

Talking about HOW the little healing Crowfall will have may work, is pointless.

Its not going to be significant so how they implement it will be equally insignificant.

Your opinion is noted.

 

If in the end the knight class has a shield but it offers nothing more than some passive buff they give to 3 other classes, then it is COSMETIC at best.

If.... If it offers plenty more than just some passive buff, then it is significant and awesome design at best. Is the power of negative hypothetical greater than positive hypothetical for some reason?


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Having people sit back a bit in sieges in order to summon / heal / etc people is a pretty common strategy, and was a mainstay in Shadowbane. It's really not all that big of a deal, in the grand scheme of 'boring things done to help your guild win a siege'.

 

 

 

Many bad things have been done in games over the years.

No reason to think they are good now and wish they were in Crowfall

 

 

P.S. add an NPC based tag along healing tent/unit/hospital is one possible solution I have seen discussed in other games... never implemented well though

Edited by steppenwolf

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You may like that idea... but who do you think is going to play characters that stay OUT of combat, just to patch you up and get you back in the fight... this is WORSE than any EQ PvE fire hose healer class

A) No one has to stay out of combat.

B ) How "in-combat" is someone, really, when all they're doing is preventing people from dying by injecting them with hitpoints?

C) How many people do you think are going to craft a ton when that actually has absolutely nothing to do directly with combat? A lot, based on the response we've seen to crafting topics around here.

 

Please, please stop thinking of worst-case scenarios, then ignoring all other possibilities. If you don't care enough about the topic to consider the possibilities for yourself before deciding things, then I'm wasting my time pointing them out to you and explaining things.

Edited by Lephys

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Has anyone brought up the fact that not having players able to sustain constant healing (ie: a firehose) doesn't necessarily make healing abilities insignificant?

 

A class who can heal a single target from 0-100% at the cost of half their own health, or one with the ability to make someone invulnerable to death for 10 seconds (long enough to get to safety), or even one with the ability to equalize health across the entire group are all examples of extremely significant, battle-changing abilities that do not fall under the 'firehose healing' concept that ACE is trying to avoid. (They're also subjectively, imo, more interesting than the ability to heal 25% of someone's health every 2.5 seconds)


 

 

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