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Andius

What Things Would You Like To See Given There Are No Primary Healers?

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Has anyone brought up the fact that not having players able to sustain constant healing (ie: a firehose) doesn't necessarily make healing abilities insignificant?

 

A class who can heal a single target from 0-100% at the cost of half their own health, or one with the ability to make someone invulnerable to death for 10 seconds (long enough to get to safety), or even one with the ability to equalize health across the entire group are all examples of extremely significant, battle-changing abilities that do not fall under the 'firehose healing' concept that ACE is trying to avoid. (They're also subjectively, imo, more interesting than the ability to heal 25% of someone's health every 2.5 seconds)

Not in this thread, but in another someone mentioned a possible Discipline for self-sacrifice healing :) I think it was called "Blood Oath" (this is a member-made Discipline IDEA, not an actual in-game Discipline). It's definitely a risky idea, but that's the point in CF I think, so it would fit in rather well!


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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I notice that a lot of posters ahead of me have thousands of posts. WOW! I am a total newbie and just barely started. But thanks to a game designer background I cannot help but stick my 2 cent nose into this. (I am retired BTW).

 

Suppose the devs assign one  (or more) archetypes as a 'Radiated' healer. When he fights he will, upon taking damage, radiate that damage as 'healing to team members within range. He/She cannot heal themselves but as damage is taken it is radiated to others and he/she can take help from other healers. This would be something new (I think) and fit well within the PVP centric concept. The radiated healing would be divided and totally dependent on the players being within that range.

 

This would not be a healer class and the Archetype would still perform their major function. No need for extra activation or button pushing, just that it works in combat. Could be applied to a 'Rune' or Discipline perhaps. Sorry folks but an old designer just cannot help himself.

Edited by Farblue

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I notice that a lot of posters ahead of me have thousands of posts. WOW! I am a total newbie and just barely started. But thanks to a game designer background I cannot help but stick my 2 cent nose into this. (I am retired BTW).

 

Suppose the devs assign one  (or more) archetypes as a 'Radiated' healer. When he fights he will, upon taking damage, radiate that damage as 'healing to team members within range. He/She cannot heal themselves but as damage is taken it is radiated to others and he/she can take help from other healers. This would be something new (I think) and fit well within the PVP centric concept. The radiated healing would be divided and totally dependent on the players being within that range.

 

This would not be a healer class and the Archetype would still perform their major function. No need for extra activation or button pushing, just that it works in combat. Could be applied to a 'Rune' or Discipline perhaps. Sorry folks but an old designer just cannot help himself.

No, it's a good idea, especially for people who want to Tank in battle. Granted usually Tanks focus on keeping themselves alive, but it would be nice if they kept everyone else alive through that sort of healing, especially since they're role in battle is to get the enemy's attention. Since it's kind of like a AoE centered around themselves (albeit a passive AoE), it could also be that those same people around them, if they're taking damage, instead take less damage and the Tank absorbs it instead, mingled with the Radiation healing. It would definitely make playing a Tank difficult, but effective for a group :)

 

The only downside would be in areas where friendly fire comes into play, simply because it could stop recognizing group members and heal EVERYONE in the area and you might take damage for your enemies. I don't know how it would be implemented there, since I could also be wrong and it could still recognize friend/foe markers.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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I notice that a lot of posters ahead of me have thousands of posts. WOW! I am a total newbie and just barely started. But thanks to a game designer background I cannot help but stick my 2 cent nose into this. (I am retired BTW).

 

Suppose the devs assign one  (or more) archetypes as a 'Radiated' healer. When he fights he will, upon taking damage, radiate that damage as 'healing to team members within range. He/She cannot heal themselves but as damage is taken it is radiated to others and he/she can take help from other healers. This would be something new (I think) and fit well within the PVP centric concept. The radiated healing would be divided and totally dependent on the players being within that range.

 

This would not be a healer class and the Archetype would still perform their major function. No need for extra activation or button pushing, just that it works in combat. Could be applied to a 'Rune' or Discipline perhaps. Sorry folks but an old designer just cannot help himself.

 

This is not dissimilar to a Warior priest in WAR AoR

Radiated damage based heals were a big part of the Two Hander spec (cant remember the spec)

 

There was some sacrifice damage based self and Aoe heals for the Dark Templar in Age of Conan

 

The problem with both of these classes was the incredible difficulty the devs had in balancing that type of healing/tanking

 

Some times with each patch the DT would swing from OP to pointless

 

Could be both dev teams were a bit lacking in talent... or its damn hard to balance damage based healing

 

P.S. I loved and played both DT main in AoC and WP heal toon in WAR (White lion main)

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It just so happens that the closest MMO to Crowfall in terms of combat mechanics and PvP features (Darkfall), had single players win against 3,4 or even 8 players. That was possible thanks to no heavy healing mechanism (which is what they described as "fire-hose" healing).

 

Sure there will be healing spells in Crowfall (like there were in Darkfall), but they're very limited in power as it should be.

 

That sounds more like the single player who took out a group of 8 is way over powered. What game was this and what was the class?


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See, the way I see it, that should be more up to your actions than your build. I'd rather soak up 50% damage for a friend because I spend all my time in combat actively blocking that damage and interrupting people who are trying to cast spells at him, etc. I'd rather be "a DPS" because I'm focusing more on doling out damage, and not because the game says "Oh, you're a Rogue? Your base damage is 1,000. Oh, you're a Paladin? Your base damage is 100, but don't worry, you inherently soak up 50% damage as long as you're competent."

 

Don't get me wrong... builds have their place. But, I don't think restricting you to your role is it. I think roles should be more emergent from builds. Like, if I'm a Frostweaver, I should be able to tank. It'll be a lot different from how a Knight does it, and maybe I'll only be 80% as good at it as a Knight. That's all fine and dandy. But, I really shouldn't be incapable of performing the role of tanking, just because I'm "not a tank." Via the act of tanking, what I will not be doing is slinging ice all over the place and frost-burning everyone's faces off. Why? It's not because "I'm suddenly not a DPS." It's because I'm utilizing my character in such a way as to efficiently soak up damage, be a target, and otherwise disrupt enemies and protect allies.

 

I think lots of modern MMOs just let builds go WAYYYYY too far in determining what it is, exactly, you can and cannot do. It's too simplified. "You get really high DPS, because there's actually a DPS value, and we just raise that when you're a DPS class." Sure, some classes can do measurably more damage than others, but you shouldn't be doing 70% less damage with class A than with class B, with both their respective highest-damage-focus builds you can muster.

 

That's the problem with healing, in general, in MMOs. It's not that a healing role is bad. It's that, when the thing your class does is heal the bejeezus out of everyone constantly, A) you have to have the rest of the game's design account for consta-damage-undoing, and B ) you've created a class that is horrible at any other role.

 

Just because healing is a role doesn't mean it has to be a major/dedicated role, or a combat role, for that matter.

To a large part I agree with you. However to a large extent heals had to become stronger and stronger over time to counter act over powered DPS characters.

 

Back before the internet table top games morphed into text based games that took a week to make a move because we had to relies on easily email messages to be relayed from host to host over phone lines to get to the other side of the world. Other than bandages and potions there were no healing class then. If DPS is also toned down to something reasonable then a dedicated healer would not be needed. Sin's and Rangers know what I'm talking about, thats why I love so much to play them, talking about easy kills. Go look in the TTK thread and see what I mean. A half assed Sin or Ranger can take out the best healer in just a few Hits after his stun block.

 

I can't wait to get into my SIn, not only does she have 2 blades, shes sexy to boot, but the Ranger is looking good as well, I may have to play both. If the breakdown of player/character class is close to what I think it will be, we won't need clerics.


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@warprose, the game was Darkfall, as specified in the post, but 1vs8 happened a couple of times in the entire history of the game.

Skill ceilings were insanely high, though.
 

Can someone clearly define fire hose healing to me?


I like to think healing becomes too powerful when the amount of HP regen outweights any damage one can take during the healing process.

And/or it takes not enough mana or "juice" in general.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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I want to see more combat generated healing (see warrior priests from warhammer). Age of conan had the right idea sorta. 1 bursty osht heal on a minute long timer and some area effect hots for sustain in long battles.

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I like to think healing becomes too powerful when the amount of HP regen outweights any damage one can take during the healing process.

And/or it takes not enough mana or "juice" in general.

 

That's still pretty vague.  Any damage?  I'm assuming characters will be balanced between how much damage they can put out and how much damage they can take.  If you do 100 DPS and I do 50 DPS and 50 HPS (Heals) is that balanced in your opinion?  Where is the threshold between balanced healing and "fire healing"?


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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There's no black and white, just arbitrary definitons. In your example one player gets to sacrifice DPS for healing... I would be fine with that if there's a limit. Basically I want healing to be low enough to allow one player to fight slightly outnumbered (and the same goes for small groups vs large groups).

 

Healing should be efficient when your team is able to disengage for a brief time from the enemies (using environment, mobility, CCs or whatever), so that it's not worth to spam it when you have an enemy up your ass.. Imho.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Give us a strong buffer and forgo the healing.  Reducing damage buffs, Movement buff, Attack Speed Buff, Leeching buff and several more could offset the need for healers.  A well played buffer could make the difference between success or failure. 

 

I do not want any healing in game unless it is a self heal (small one) based off a discipline that everyone has access to.

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There's no black and white, just arbitrary definitons. In your example one player gets to sacrifice DPS for healing... I would be fine with that if there's a limit. Basically I want healing to be low enough to allow one player to fight slightly outnumbered (and the same goes for small groups vs large groups).

 

Healing should be efficient when your team is able to disengage for a brief time from the enemies (using environment, mobility, CCs or whatever), so that it's not worth to spam it when you have an enemy up your bottom.. Imho.

 

I'd argue that there aren't arbitrary definitions, there are only arbitrary words without definitions although that's all just semantics. 

 

You and I have different opinions on the impact healing makes on group vs group.  From what I've seen you post in the past you think that healing makes it so the smaller group has no chance.  Also based on what you have said you were talking about a small group of 1-3 vs 2+ times that number.  In this case I would agree with you but my opinion is that a group of six should fairly easily defeat a group of two.  Why?  Because a group should compliment each other in such a way that adding one more person vastly improves the whole group more than +1 guy up until an "ideal" number of players within the group.  This is more of an every other game besides Darkfall kind of philosophy. 

 

Contrary to what you believe however I think that when you're talking about 10-30 vs 2+ times their number that role reverses.  Healing is in favor of the smaller, more disciplined group.  Why?  I've been in fights where we had ten vs three times as many or more and losing a single person would have rapidly started an avalanche effect killing our whole group.  Without healing a huge group can simply spam you down, they don't even really need to aim all that much.  Its a war of attrition and they have a lot more of it.

 

My main argument in favor of healing however is that it diversifies combat.  Different styles of play for different types of people, you have to synergize your group and plan ahead.  Video games have been doing it for ages and suddenly its broken?  Hardly.


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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Give us a strong buffer and forgo the healing.  Reducing damage buffs, Movement buff, Attack Speed Buff, Leeching buff and several more could offset the need for healers.  A well played buffer could make the difference between success or failure. 

 

I do not want any healing in game unless it is a self heal (small one) based off a discipline that everyone has access to.

 

I like your idea of buffer classes, though I hope those kinds of skills are spread broadly across all classes.  Giving everyone a self heal is the opposite of what I want though.  It has zero value to creating strong group mechanics.


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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You and I have different opinions on the impact healing makes on group vs group.  From what I've seen you post in the past you think that healing makes it so the smaller group has no chance.  Also based on what you have said you were talking about a small group of 1-3 vs 2+ times that number.  In this case I would agree with you but my opinion is that a group of six should fairly easily defeat a group of two.  Why?  Because a group should compliment each other in such a way that adding one more person vastly improves the whole group more than +1 guy up until an "ideal" number of players within the group.  This is more of an every other game besides Darkfall kind of philosophy.

 

I don't agree with the underlined part, and that's why we probably have different opinions in the first place. But yes, you got my opinion right.

 

Contrary to what you believe however I think that when you're talking about 10-30 vs 2+ times their number that role reverses.  Healing is in favor of the smaller, more disciplined group.  Why?  I've been in fights where we had ten vs three times as many or more and losing a single person would have rapidly started an avalanche effect killing our whole group.  Without healing a huge group can simply spam you down, they don't even really need to aim all that much.  Its a war of attrition and they have a lot more of it.

 

No, I agree on that. And it's why I clarified that groups need the option to heal some HPs back when they find a time window. That's exactly what happened in Darkfall, and I could point you to some videos on the tube (if I had the time to find them)... there have been many cases in which one small group defeated a larger one because the latter was able to gain time to heal.

 

If healing is enough powerful to be used during active fighting (like when a player is costantly damaging you), then there's no room for smaller groups to shine. It won't matter if their ability to use terrain or coordination is superior, because others would just spam heals or use them to compensate errors.

 

Healing should feel like a chess move. If you manage to get in a position where your pawns are relatively safe for one turn, you can heal them.

If you're able to heal pawns at anytime even during "active fighting", it feels like healing becomes a form of anti-DPS, aka the term "fire-hose" healing.

 

Video games have been doing it for ages and suddenly its broken?  Hardly.

 

It's not broken.. again, arbitrary definitions. If a game is meant to be won by larger groups (like your 6vs2 example) then it's not broken.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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I don't agree with the underlined part, and that's why we probably have different opinions in the first place. But yes, you got my opinion right.

 

Its simple math to me, if you have two people against six people and all other factors were even (they are all the same skill in both character and player) than the six man group should roller skate all over the two.

 

98% of the time you kill larger numbers with a much smaller group its typically because you vastly out geared / skilled (in character terms) that group.  Knowing that, it really doesn't matter what the game mechanics are, veteran players will always roll over noobs.  You talked about how one person could kill ten in Darkfall at one point if I remember correctly.  You could do that in WoW and Shadowbane too.  Just find a group of rookies and start swinging. 

 

The rest of what you said was really well written and I appreciate that.  I've played a healer in almost every game I've played in the last, hell I don't know how many years.  I don't really understand the argument that you shouldn't be able to heal damage.  If magic can do harm to someone than why shouldn't magic be able to do good to someone just as effectively.  In or out of combat. 

 

I have a feeling it stems from a physiological issue that people who primarily play DPS classes have (not that this is you, Im not sure).  Here's what I mean.  When I played a healer in all of these games, the main counter was typically a stealth or rogue type class.  Often I would be doing really well and then suddenly I'd be assassinated or neutralized from out of nowhere by some stealth class.  Because of that I hate the idea of stealth and when I envision my ideal game it doesn't have stealthers of any type.  I feel like healers are to DPS what stealthers are to me.  They have probably experienced hundreds of times where they almost killed a guy only to have him saved by that cursed healer. 

 

As far as your chess scenario goes, I really like where your head is at.  There is nothing wrong with what you said either and I can see how you could develop that idea.  In this case you have to make a choice whether to keep fighting with low health or two pull back and get healed. 

 

The Japanese version of chess is called Shogi, I mentioned it before.  In shogi once you've captured an enemy piece you can then choose to either move an existing piece on your side or you can place a captured piece on the table to fight on your side.  Basically you sacrifice an attack move to gain support for your next move.

 

To me this is what healing is, a class can either join in the attack in an offensive way or they can choose to heal in a defensive way.  In addition to that once a piece reaches the enemy side of the board you can choose to flip it over, giving it completely different move properties.  To me this is like having a choice in your group makeup, you can bring an extra healer, or an extra dps class depending on how the rest of your group is set up. 


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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