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Andius

What Things Would You Like To See Given There Are No Primary Healers?

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I would love to see life leaches, OT heals, damage absorption, and maybe damage redirection/mitigation to others.

That would definitely be nice to see :)


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Maybe I am in the minority but I would prefer minimal CC since stunlock gameplay is always lame.

 

Potion spamming is also lame and usually only done in bad ftp asian games.

 

They could go the GW2 route and give everyone forms of self-healing, but I imagine most people would be against that.

 

The other option is MOBA style where you need to retreat to a structure to get healed.

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In an interview they said they were interested in doing the DDO thing where there are PoI's like shrines or such that you have to retreat to in order to heal. So it's very likely that will happen. However, since there is a confirmed Alchemy Discipline, I assume that potions also play a part in the game. My guess: Healing potions CAN NOT be used during battle, which would make a lot of sense. Maybe they'd be gradual-healing instead of instant 100+ health upon ingestion. That way, if you enter battle while you're healing, the potion will quit working and you just wasted a Health Potion.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Well the way Shadowbane's potions work is by giving you a heal over time effect that is interrupted upon taking damage.  So the potion quits working "in combat".

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Now I might get blasted with contempt for this, but a good system to look at - now not because they are the current "popular tending game genre" but simply because how the handle the issue of healers in a group focused PvP game with elements of PvE are surprisingly enough MoBAs.

 

Look at what is considered "A support" in games like League of Legends, or DotA 2 and so on.  Not all of them are "healers" I mean the only "fire hose" healers in League of Legends is Soraka and Sona, both of which have been nerfed (one even completely re-built) because it got to a point where they made or broke team fights with their fire hose healing, they made the game not fun because of it.  But look to abilities of what other champions are considered supports, I mean they simply just have to have a stun ability, or the ability to apply a shield to another player and their a support!

 

I don't want the developers to build the game around a MoBA by any means or limit the classes to the same restrictions of the individual champions, or even be not creative and copy the poorly done system in GW2 and Wildstar, personally I think that's not just narrow minded, but stupid.  Those ideas were "good ideas" but I believe the development team simply didn't take them to their greatest potential, I think their potential is very squandered.

 

I also consider it equally narrow minded for people who are used to the traditional healer role to mistake or even brush off what the developers mean by "support class".  I think people who traditionally play healers would love playing a support class, in fact they would likely enjoy it more, because I get the feeling a support will have a more active role in a fight then simply standing back and as the developers said themselves "applying a fire hose" to a burning house.  

To use a synonym of what a support is compared to a dedicated healer.

 

"A dedicated healer will stand there holding a fire hose and blasting a massive wave of water to extinguish a fire."

 

"A support will go in with a fire axe, smash though the debris  and rescue the people inside the burning building, using a fire extinguisher where needed."

 

So instead of playing the HUD game, which is staring at health bars and playing the heal numbers game where your only interactions with the environment is to simply stay out of danger - if and when danger presents itself only to yourself - where if the person you are healing is good - it's their job to protect the healer from danger, when it shouldn't be..

 

You'll be actively participating in fights to prevent, avert danger, force disengagements and force engagements, actively protecting people from harm and actively making yourself the shield for your team to cause harm to your opponents.

 

Even if you don't like playing games like League of Legends, I suggest people who play healers go play support characters in a game like Smite or League of Legends for a few day to get to understand what a support is, because to be honest those games are some of the best examples of what a support role is I've seen, hopefully support in this game will be more in line with what support is in games like that rather than what we see in Guild Wars 2 - which is a blanket "no support, no healer" at all and simply "you must heal yourself" with "combos" for effect, which is the only reason you'd team with people to get things done, which is saddening when you think about it.

Edited by Synast

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Even if you don't like playing games like League of Legends, I suggest people who play healers go play support characters in a game like Smite or League of Legends for a few day to get to understand what a support is, because to be honest those games are some of the best examples of what a support role is I've seen

I'd actually advise against getting too used to the League of Legends scene.  If you want to learn about supports, play Dota 2.  This isn't a moba war issue but League tends to boil down the gameplay into extremely specific roles (all through items but still).  Each item in League is built for a specific purpose and synergy so if you stack a build with tank items, you're basically just a tank.  If you stack a build with damage items, you're basically just a damage dealer.  If you go with a mix, you're tanky dps.  It's extremely straightforward and obvious how each item affects your numbers output/input.

 

But I feel Dota 2 goes a different direction with that, most of the items being rather unique in what they can bring to the table and affecting more than just your numerical stats.  It starts as simple as the often purchased Power Treads, the most commonly used boot option.  It appears to simply be a boost to stats and speed but you can toggle the boots to change what stats it offers.  Expert players use this to their micro advantage by being in Strength mode when they want extra health, toggling to Agility for extra damage and speed to kill someone, and switching back to Strength for that higher lifespan.  Or some carries stay in Agility mode and toggle to Strength when their health is getting low for extra survival.  Toggling to Intelligence when the coast is clear lets you regenerate mana faster.

 

That's just one example but there's a number of other similar expert items.  A whirlwind clicky that renders an enemy or ally immune to damage and unable to act.  A staff that pushes enemies or allies in the direction they are facing.  A weapon that creates controllable phantasmal copies of you.  Another that boosts the speed of all nearby allies but only if they stay near you.  A helmet that takes control of an enemy for a brief period of time and another that insanely boosts your attack speed BUT causes you to take way more damage while active.  The Blink Dagger is an amazing initiation item and lets you teleport to a target point, but enters cooldown if you're taking damage (it's not for escaping).  There's many examples of ways to assist allies or control enemies that go beyond simple stat increases and retain the skill-based gameplay goal as opposed to being mindless fire and forget spam.

 

Those are just the items.  The runes in Crowfall may lend to similar power customization by granting abilities your class normally wouldn't have.

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I'd like some elements of the UO system. Specifically encumbrance, gathering, and reagents. NPCs do not sell reagents, they must be gathered. Anything other than the most basic reagents are in the campaigns. The best reagents are in the hardest campaigns.

 

To make a potion requires reagents and alchemy skill. Perhaps gathering reagents also requires skill. This would provide a reason to have a gathering/craftsman toon, rather than the FoM skill.

 

Casting a spell takes one or more reagents, the more powerful spells requiring the most/hardest to gather.

 

Bandages can be made, perhaps from wool gathered from sheep? Even if just purchased, they (like reagents) have weight.

 

Combined with mana, this would provide a lot of limiters on 'dedicated healers', require hard choices for folks who want to heal. High int required for great healing, tradeoff is low strength. Strength required to raise encumbrance. Low strength means someone who wants to heal has to either have only enough strength to carry a handful of reagents with all of their armor, or have a lot of carrying capacity in exchange for basically being unarmored and killable in a couple of hits.

Edited by Horrorshow

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Maybe it's already been stated but I was wondering if anyone else noted the "Life on Hit" stat on the character creation screen. 

http://i.imgur.com/YaXCPCu.jpg

 

This sounds like a straight up life-steal mechanic like you can see in many games including Diablo 3.   It's effectiveness will depend on whether or not it's scalable and what percentage of your health can be achieved, but even if you only get 1-2% of your health back each hit that will go a long ways towards making characters sturdier, especially the DPS roles.    I actually hope it isn't overly effective because I would like to see more focus on some of the other suggestions on this thread. 

 

Buffs/Debuffs

Mitigation Abilities/Shields

Tactical Retreats and Player Collision used to create space for out of combat healing

Non-magical healing - bandages, bone-setting, balms, salves, potions (on a long CD)

 

Maybe something that hasn't been considered, the range at which any kind of damage mitigation or any form of healing can be effective.

I think the problem with fire-hose healing in addition to it being a huge health pool multiplier, is that most healing is done from the "realitive" safety of the back lines and it's given a very generous range.  I think any healing, even the non-fire-hose variety ought to have very short range if not touch-range, making positioning a little more tactical and battlefield awareness more important.


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Here's a simple list of what I consider support abilities popular in games:

- Stuns

- Knock ups/knock backs/interrupts/"punts"/pulls/grabs

- Slows

- Buffs that impact health and combat related synergies, e.g mana, magic, damage,attack speed, cooldowns, life steal, etc etc, targeting speed, targeting range and so on.

- Debuffs that impact  combat related synergies, e.g mana, magic, damage, attack speed, cooldowns, life steal, etc etc, targeting speed, targeting range and so on.

- deployable/directional/castable on others: Shields, Invulnerability, invisibility for amounts/duration.

- "Hook Shots"/Grapples

 

 

Pretty much anything and everything which has an impact on combat or actions in the game which you can use to effect other players, friend or foe and yourself which does something other than just a form of damage, but in turn give you a combat advantage or help to prevent a team member from perishing or in turn assist a team member to defeat an opponent.  If such ability also does damage then all the better.  A debuff which dose damage over time but does nothing else isn't considered a support ability for example, but a debuff which does damage over time and slows is considered a support ability because it reduces the combat effectiveness of the target.

 

So the spectrum for what is considered a support ability is very broad.


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Here's a simple list of what I consider support abilities popular in games:

 

- Stuns

- Knock ups/knock backs/interrupts/"punts"/pulls/grabs

- Slows

- Buffs that impact health and combat related synergies, e.g mana, magic, damage,attack speed, cooldowns, life steal, etc etc, targeting speed, targeting range and so on.

- Debuffs that impact  combat related synergies, e.g mana, magic, damage, attack speed, cooldowns, life steal, etc etc, targeting speed, targeting range and so on.

- deployable/directional/castable on others: Shields, Invulnerability, invisibility for amounts/duration.

- "Hook Shots"/Grapples

 

 

Pretty much anything and everything which has an impact on combat or actions in the game which you can use to effect other players, friend or foe and yourself which does something other than just a form of damage, but in turn give you a combat advantage or help to prevent a team member from perishing or in turn assist a team member to defeat an opponent.  If such ability also does damage then all the better.  A debuff which dose damage over time but does nothing else isn't considered a support ability for example, but a debuff which does damage over time and slows is considered a support ability because it reduces the combat effectiveness of the target.

 

So the spectrum for what is considered a support ability is very broad.

This is something I'd very much like to see. It'll require players to be very attentive and clever with their skill usage in order to win anything large-scale, but it won't be so OP that small-scale fights are insta-win because "Oh hey look at that guy buffing them, now they just won't die!" It can definitely turn the scale of battle, but not by such a huge amount that success is guaranteed. You actually would have to be good at your job.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Many of the things presented here are things that have been done over and over.  There's an arguement to be made that they're done over and over because they work, yes, but I'd still love to see some actually fresh ideas (for an MMO).

 

Another thing to consider is what, exactly, this MMO is trying to achieve with its combat.  With how heavily punished players can be through death, via loss of armour and such, it's safe to assume that the mentality presented in say, Guild Wars 2 or Planetside 2 (aka Zerg vs Zerg), probably isn't going to be viable.  If anything, I think Crowfall is trying to reinforce, specifically with the rulesets that actually have some risk/reward, intelligent and meaningful PvP.  I know if there was a chance I would lose my gear in a single death, I'd be significantly more cautious about engaging in any fight before I knew for certain what I was up against, and my friends and I had a plan.

 

So, how does this relate to the topic, then?

 

First, I'd love to see mechanics that reinforce mere spamming of resources or abilities to win in conflicts small and large.  An example of this gone wrong is the Black Desert Online Beta, where currently your potion heals for you a frankly alarming sum, and is quite spammable.  Or in Aion, with cash-shop potions that can heal 75% of a tank's HP instantly.  This then reinforces that one must be CC'd to death to prevent their use.  And nobody enjoys a PvP game where maximizing CC is the only viable way to win.  It's simply frustrating.

 

Well the way Shadowbane's potions work is by giving you a heal over time effect that is interrupted upon taking damage.  So the potion quits working "in combat".

 

I support this.  Doing away with other items that can heal you during combat is one way to prevent this.

 

Another thing from Shadowbane I'd love to see return is heal blocking.  Specifically I recall an ability of the Assassin (Shadow Mantle?!? I think?!?) to prevent one from being healed for a specific period of time.  Now, the meta in Shadowbane was different; this was a death sentence in large group fights, because your AoE heals were the only thing keeping your stack alive.  This is a different story, here in Crowfall.  This debuff wouldn't be an immediate death sentence, I don't think, because there's simply less healing to begin with.  Instead, this would be a means of dissuading someone from combat altogether.  I, during some measure of group fighting, this debuff were to be dropped on me, I would almost certainly need to play more cautiously, if not entirely leave to a safe distance, until it were off or removed from me. 

 

And that's what I'd like to see.  Buffs, and debuffs, that encouraged intelligent gameplay.  Buffs that put effects onto my allies that allowed them to survive in otherwise extremely dangerous situations (reflecting projectiles, immunity to particular types of damage), and debuffs that required specific actions to counter, instead of just cleansing the debuff, or... Well, doing nothing, quite frankly.  A great deal of PvP in a great deal of games, most players just power through debuffs, perhaps playing a little more defensive, but otherwise not changing their tactics.

 

This, I feel, would make skirmishes and most other combat that isn't just enourmous, amorphous blobs of people crashing against each other, more immersive, challenging, and unique.  I feel it also adds to the game the ability to still take on foes who are stronger, higher level, or better equipped than you (to a small degree), because if you play wisely with your buffs and debuffs, and your opponent is reckless, then your counterplay will give you an edge. 

 

Finally, I'd like to see a number of buffs and debuffs in the game, each unique from each other.  To the point where there are, for example, 50 buffs and debuffs each.  A lot to get used to, I understand, but this allows for different people to, hopefully, select which ones they prefer based on builds and allies, instead of needing to horde the single most important two or three buffs and debuffs (such as might stacking in Guild Wars 2). 

 

What this could also build into, is the allowance for buff bonuses, and debuff restastances, on gear.  Normally, such a thing simply wouldn't work when there's only a few debuffs in the game, as it would basically just make you immune to too much.  But if there's 50 different debuffs, then allowing for different pieces of armour to have debuff resistance (or buff bonuses), would allow for customization for specific needs.  Perhaps you're playing a class where you make great use of buff X.  Find some gear that makes buff X stronger when cast upon you, or last longer.  Perhaps Debuff Y really just angers you when dropped on you, and  you'd rather not deal with it.  Get some gear that reduces its strength or duration. 

 

Assuming reasonable caps on these, it would allow for a wide range of diversity, even between people playing the exact same class.

 

This will help people take initiate to deal with their own health and status problems, instead of relying upon a healer to do it for them.  Now, how you build, what you build, and how you play against what debuffs you receive, matters more than simply having more healers facerolling the keyboard and furiously clicking your life bar up.

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Many of the things presented here are things that have been done over and over.  There's an arguement to be made that they're done over and over because they work, yes, but I'd still love to see some actually fresh ideas (for an MMO).

I'm only quoting the top line because it's such a long post, but I'm going to reference everything in it anyways :)

 

First off, I'm all for most of your suggestions. Challenging, intellectual PvP is so rare anymore and it would be wonderful to see Crowfall achieve this, and I think they can in many ways. Just a few things:

 

1. There's a very small power curve and no level, only (as they refer to it) horizontal skill progression similar to raising %. So technically it's viable anyways that a newbie can take on a vet and at least give them a good fight, if they're any good at PvP and they learn quickly (skill is still very much a requirement, as you might imagine). 

 

2. If there are 50 buffs/debuffs, I'm all for this as well. It sounds like there will be a limit to the number of skills you have attached, but this could also lead to a sort of Flavor of the Month thing where they're constantly changing buffs/debuffs. But, to be honest, that's not much of a problem if their opponents are smart enough to counter them, therefore making it a very smart choice in the end.

 

3. From what I understand of the crafting system (as little as has been presented about it), being able to counter specific debuffs or enhance favored buffs will not be possible. There will be min-maxing of stats because alloys and other crafting items have different stat boosts (Speed, Strength, Spell-Power, etc). However, I don't know if even Enchanting armor/weapons will work this way. Enchanting is taking a Thrall's spirit and using it to make your equipment better, based on what the Thrall was during his/her lifetime. A Thrall that was a blacksmith, for example, might be used to make crafting hammers that have a higher success rate than average ones. I don't think specific buffs/debuffs can be addressed in the form of making them last longer/shorter when cast upon them. Rather, the equipment itself will provide any buffs for the wielder or debuffs for anyone hit by the wielder. That's just my understanding of it, though.

 

I'm totally in support of smart gameplay, so having no in-combat healing at all would be a wonderful addition. Out-of-combat healing, however, it going to be severely limited as well, but seeing as there are no NPC vendors that you can buy stuff from, and monsters probably won't be dropping crafted items (unless they killed a player and ate some of their supplies, that'd be a fun mechanic for CF), so actually having health-potions that heal over time, bandages and similar would be great because it would keep the player economy rolling right along simply because you have to buy them from players, be they Alchemists or whatever else is capable of making items that aid in survival.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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i sure hope my tanks gets a Bubble and heals... not sure how you can play a game without a tank having bubbles and heals. 

 

I wouldn't mind my caster being able to turn his cloth armor into the Pdef of plate either.

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ummm...a couple of Points....

 

in SB Shadowmantle could be dispelled or bypassed via Sacrifice....and there's the Key, imo...

 

anything that could be done had a Counter...and I mean anything...SB had many good things...but it shone brightly when it came to the rock/paper/scissors of attacks and counters....

 

I'm hoping that we are going to have at least as much Depth in CF....not less

 

but I'm silly like that....


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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snip

 

 

Funny thing is, it's not too dissimilar to EVE Online, using damps and target jams prevent logi from healing members of their gang, which in turn means those gang members are more vulnerable to being popped.  Which either forces the logi to warp out to brake the damp/ECM lock on their ship, or forces the ship being healed to warp out when no heals, but in turn it means that if all those ships are being warp scrammed, their dead already because they can't warp out.

 

So the dampers/ecms on the team have to damp/ecm the enemy damp/ecms to brake the damp/ecms on their logi...  Then your damp/ecms have to do the same to the enemy logi.  

Edited by Synast

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ummm...a couple of Points....

 

in SB Shadowmantle could be dispelled or bypassed via Sacrifice....and there's the Key, imo...

 

anything that could be done had a Counter...and I mean anything...SB had many good things...but it shone brightly when it came to the rock/paper/scissors of attacks and counters....

 

I'm hoping that we are going to have at least as much Depth in CF....not less

 

but I'm silly like that....

I never played SB, so I don't have anything to compare this to. Still though, I would very much love for most if not all buffs/debuffs to be counter-able. That level of depth would be very nice to see ^_^


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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