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Andius

What Things Would You Like To See Given There Are No Primary Healers?

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I usually play a healer in any MMO I play. It's my go-to role and it's something I'm naturally good at so it's comfortable. That's not going to happen here, and that's fine. But I think there are ways to have healing that isn't just burst healing and is also engaging.

 

They could do things like on-hit healing. For example you cast a "buff-heal" on someone and each time they're attacked, it will heal for a flat number. Or a percentage of the hit they've taken. That way they are getting a minor heal effect that is more mitigation than healing. If it were a flat number, however, then they may even heal very slightly from taking a hit if the opponent isn't capable of damaging for more than the heal. I think both a percentage mitigation or a flat heal number would be engaging. The buff heal would only last a few seconds, of course.

 

I think that there's a lot to be said for shielding too. It isn't really affecting health, and if the shield expires after a short time then it only works as mitigation. I'm interested to see how they'll present the support role.

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You have to be careful about MOBA style support in an MMO because of the scale. 5v5 is a lot different than 50v50 because if 20% of your team has imba CCs then the game will turn into a stunlock fest.

Edited by RolexSweep

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The GW2 model isn't perfect by a long shot. It's oversimplified to the point of idiocy, the TTK is far too short for its combat mechanics to have meaning, and there's too large a divide between "tank" and "spank" for the meta to have room for both at any one time. Howeverm the removal of main healer is actually one of my favorite parts of its design. Everyone has to pull their own weight, and combat tends to be a lot more fluid and dynamic because of it.

 

TTK is only short in guild wars 2 if you're a terrible player or fighting one.  The total nerf of stability shortened TTK somewhat when groups fighting each other aren't evenly sized, but in most serious fights I find myself having 180 second cooldowns coming back up at least once.  I mean yeah if you just follow the bomb regroup water repeat then you're probably going to get beaten quickly by someone who is paying attention to what their opponent is doing and what options they have available.

 

The nice thing about heals (but not fire hose healers) is that limited heals give your opponent (and observers) something very easy to comprehend.  Ok, we just pushed each other and he had to burn his heal but I still have mine, so on the next push I have an advantage.  When you mix that in with other types of outs that aren't as obvious it makes it easier to learn the game as a progression.

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I'd like to see people just let the game be by not asking for PvE and stop complaining about Race restrictions.  These are the rules of the game, let ACE develop it.

 

we haven't heard about how support or disciplines will heal so lets just wait till that information is released.  So long as we aren't spamming potions all day (looks at Neverwinter) I'll be happy.


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I usually play a healer in any MMO I play. It's my go-to role and it's something I'm naturally good at so it's comfortable. That's not going to happen here, and that's fine. But I think there are ways to have healing that isn't just burst healing and is also engaging.

 

They could do things like on-hit healing. For example you cast a "buff-heal" on someone and each time they're attacked, it will heal for a flat number. Or a percentage of the hit they've taken. That way they are getting a minor heal effect that is more mitigation than healing. If it were a flat number, however, then they may even heal very slightly from taking a hit if the opponent isn't capable of damaging for more than the heal. I think both a percentage mitigation or a flat heal number would be engaging. The buff heal would only last a few seconds, of course.

 

I think that there's a lot to be said for shielding too. It isn't really affecting health, and if the shield expires after a short time then it only works as mitigation. I'm interested to see how they'll present the support role.

 

One of my friends used to play healers in MMOs, when she started playing other games where support roles were the focus, in particular League of legends, she informed me she found she enjoyed being a support better.  So who knows, never know what you'd like till you at least try it. :P

Edited by Synast

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in a game with no dedicated healers, I hope to see support classes with powerful clutch buffs/debuffs and shields, as in they have decently long cooldowns and a big effect, but last for a very very short time.

 

passive auras are almost bad as fire hose healing.

Edited by Amarath

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define short plz and elaborate on why?

From what I've read, the primary problem that plagued SB was server lag culminating in frequent involuntary disconnection from the server (sb.exe).

The bigger the fight, the more lag players had to put up with.

P101 has significant lag as well, for different reasons, and it was much worse at launch. Again, the more players in the fight, the more lag.

 

When SB was running well, sieges could take up to 6 hours each. This is dramatic, and gave players lots of time to maneuver and fight, but I honestly think 3 hours is plenty of time for even the longest siege. Half that seems optimal for say a 100v100 siege (~90 min.). It's just unhealty to spend too much time glued to the screen.

 

This is why I think CF can improve the genre with shorter fights.

  • reduces lag issues.
  • more risk each time a toon fights.
  • healthier to reduce screen fatigue.
  • more realism from a personal perspective. Not the army's. Real sieges took months and the trojan war was a 10 year siege.
  • ACE plans to use some memory-hungry subroutines, like Voxelfarm, so that just raises these stakes.

I'm wrong often enough to be open-minded, but this is how I see it now.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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From what I've read, the primary problem that plagued SB was server lag culminating in frequent involuntary disconnection from the server (sb.exe).

The bigger the fight, the more lag players had to put up with.

P101 has significant lag as well, for different reasons, and it was much worse at launch. Again, the more players in the fight, the more lag.

 

When SB was running well, sieges could take up to 6 hours each. This is dramatic, and gave players lots of time to maneuver and fight, but I honestly think 3 hours is plenty of time for even the longest siege. Half that seems optimal for say a 100v100 siege (~90 min.). It's just unhealty to spend too much time glued to the screen.

 

This is why I think CF can improve the genre with shorter fights.

  • reduces lag issues.
  • more risk each time a toon fights.
  • healthier to reduce screen fatigue.
  • more realism from a personal perspective. Not the army's. Real sieges took months and the trojan war was a 10 year siege.
  • ACE plans to use some memory-hungry subroutines, like Voxelfarm, so that just raises these stakes.

I'm wrong often enough to be open-minded, but this is how I see it now.

 

That's a slippery slope though.  While yes, I do in fact agree that the concept of seiges shouldn't quite take as long as they did in Shadowbane, we need to be careful how we achieve it.  I agree that it's healthier for us, the players, to not have to be stuck in a fight for six hours (most people work, and/or have some measure of life, and can't commit to that).  But this leads into a great concern of mine.

 

One of, if not my biggest, fear, is that this game will follow the unwritten meta that has become recent MMO's, where burst potential is through the roof.  Most major MMO's allow for the bursty builds/classes to be able to tear into someone and usually 100-0 them instantly, if not without counter-play altogether.  I don't know about anyone else, but I do not enjoy this.  Particularly when we're facing the reality of losing our all-important gear upon death, I don't want the assassin class to be able to pop out of stealth and murder me dead before I can press a button.  A frightening example of this is Aion, where we have Sorcerors able to quite literally 1 shot anyone who does not build strictly magic resistance, and even then you only have a small % chance of not getting liquified by a singular spell.  Even the tank class, the Templar, can succumb to this unless they're spec'd fully for not dying to this, which makes them quite vulnerable to near everything else.

 

Looking back, I really never realized how much I appreciated Shadowbane for how much slower its combat was.  I'm not talking about siege combat specifically, but combat in general.  There was no class capable of instantly murderizing you, assuming you're both on near equal ground of gear and levels and whatnot.  It just couldn't be done.  A single 1v1 fight could last some time, allowing more time for reaction, counter play, and use of options, rather of it being a simple flow chart of;

 

-> Are you stacking resistance particular to their class/damage type

--No

--->You're dead immediately.

--Yes

--->You have approximately 2 seconds before you're dead.

 

If we want to 'speed up' siege combat, then, I'd suggest making the ability to infiltrate structures easier, be it through abilities, weaker walls, or stronger siege weapon potential.  What I don't want to see, is characters themselves just getting too out of control. 

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What I would like to see is support classes who are able to Manipulate the terrain... I know they have stated somewhere they intend to put that in the game... A wall of earth for retreating that the enemy must break through or run around ... things like that will be fun


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One of my friends used to play healers in MMOs, when she started playing other games where support roles were the focus, in particular League of legends, she informed me she found she enjoyed being a support better.  So who knows, never know what you'd like till you at least try it. :P

Oh yeah I'm in the same boat, and Soraka is probably my most played champion on League. I thought it was interesting the way they reworked her to sacrifice her health but she could gain it back for herself by landing attacks. I don't think that's something that should be inherent to an archetype but it would be interesting if you could achieve that playstyle through disciplines.

 

I wouldn't say I enjoy playing the support role in games more than healing, I think they both have their merit but I can see why huge amounts of healing would be a negative impact here and I'm looking forward to more information on what exactly a support role IS in Crowfall.

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Poophat, that cheese would clog something besides your arteries first.

That's a slippery slope though.  While yes, I do in fact agree that the concept of seiges shouldn't quite take as long as they did in Shadowbane, we need to be careful how we achieve it.  I agree that it's healthier for us, the players, to not have to be stuck in a fight for six hours (most people work, and/or have some measure of life, and can't commit to that).  But this leads into a great concern of mine.

 

One of, if not my biggest, fear, is that this game will follow the unwritten meta that has become recent MMO's, where burst potential is through the roof.  Most major MMO's allow for the bursty builds/classes to be able to tear into someone and usually 100-0 them instantly, if not without counter-play altogether.  I don't know about anyone else, but I do not enjoy this.  Particularly when we're facing the reality of losing our all-important gear upon death, I don't want the assassin class to be able to pop out of stealth and murder me dead before I can press a button.  A frightening example of this is Aion, where we have Sorcerors able to quite literally 1 shot anyone who does not build strictly magic resistance, and even then you only have a small % chance of not getting liquified by a singular spell.  Even the tank class, the Templar, can succumb to this unless they're spec'd fully for not dying to this, which makes them quite vulnerable to near everything else.

 

Looking back, I really never realized how much I appreciated Shadowbane for how much slower its combat was.  I'm not talking about siege combat specifically, but combat in general.  There was no class capable of instantly murderizing you, assuming you're both on near equal ground of gear and levels and whatnot.  It just couldn't be done.  A single 1v1 fight could last some time, allowing more time for reaction, counter play, and use of options, rather of it being a simple flow chart of;

 

-> Are you stacking resistance particular to their class/damage type

--No

--->You're dead immediately.

--Yes

--->You have approximately 2 seconds before you're dead.

 

If we want to 'speed up' siege combat, then, I'd suggest making the ability to infiltrate structures easier, be it through abilities, weaker walls, or stronger siege weapon potential.  What I don't want to see, is characters themselves just getting too out of control. 

The general consensus from the many posts I've read is that a really strong critical hit should do around 1/3 (and certainly less than half) of a toon's hit points. This gives us a feeling of danger without letting us get 1-shot without learning anything. Overly powerful attacks are not popular here,

no problem.

 

From the gameplay simulation video we saw when CF's Kickstarter came out, it looks like ACE intends to make structures pretty porous to enemy attack. Hopefully the actual game walls will be much more robust than those examples.

I'd like to keep structural damage methods limited enough to make sense.

Blasting holes in a palisade with a hammer should take a long time, not one throw. But a trebuchet should show effects with each projectile.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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All indications are that they have the same approach to core role  design as every other MMO of the last 4-6 years

 

Everyone will be a little bit of everything just some a little more than others.

 

I am just glad that so many other aspects of this game sound great and show some serious thinking went into them.

I have given up waiting for a game to make the class/skill choices real matter again.

The negativity thrown at the "old trinity" is not only misplaced its mostly inaccurate.

Almost NO MMOs of the past had a trinity,

it was more of a pentatherate with tanks heals dps CC and hybrids all needed and with a special place in any group structure,

even wow started out this way.

Games like EQ took it way past a trinity with a unique position in any group for 8+ specialist class types.

 

Much of the re-play-ability of the older MMOs came from experiencing the game from a whole different perspective as you leveled up and played with the different class/skill types

 

Its all good though

So much more to this game than class design

and for those of us who may not like this direction.... its not like we have anything else we can play

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This is always a tricky one on the "we think healers are great!" vs "healers suck!"

 

The core argument is unsolvable on this axis because we're arguing direction with techniques - that is the specific mechanics that accomplish a goal, as opposed to the "why" on what healers provide that people desire. When we get to the why question, we can look past the mechanics and get to the underlying systems and psychology. 

 

There's an awesome Extra Credits episode that articulates this awesomely on the subject of genres; http://extra-credits.net/episodes/aesthetics-of-play/

 

So, then, why do people like healers? 

 

There's a few major reasons. These are broad patterns and generalizations, but at the "design direction" level, it's hard to zoom much closer than this. There will be exceptions on the individual level to any broad pattern.

 

1) Healers answer, in a clear way, a way someone can help, support or assist allies without having to do the killing themselves. This is appealing to someone who wants to define themselves as a helper.

 

2) Healers are traditionally the most impactful piece of an RPG, PvE or PvP. Healers are more important than non-healers overall in these games, and some people play them because they like be indispensable (and really, we'd all like to be indispensable!).

 

3) Healers have thematic fantasies that people have learned to love and look to for "what fits them" when they come into a new game.

 

Reason 1 speaks to an playstyle and sense of expression. "I'm someone who helps," or "I like adding value to my group in supportive ways." I'd wager that this is the important bit - the why of healers. For this, there doesn't even have to be healing at all if you're a proper support that can act indirectly. Protection Monk in GW1 (while tuned to be 'a healer') is a model for active protection and buffing. Nami, from League of Legends, is a support whose healing is a very minor part of her kit - she focuses more on control and stat buffing. These characters are helpers, regardless of fire-hosing or not - and that focus should be the guiding principle that drives what support classes look like.

 

I'd wager the debate largely comes from people who are worried there won't be a way to express this style, or the limited ways in which games have provided for this historically. This draw us to the conclusion of "supporting = healer", which is an understandable POV, but not the whole story.

 

Reason 2 gets dicey. Healing doesn't need to cause this as a fire-hose, but without a new model of costs, timings, action to result, or other things that directly get you out of "MMO Priest" gameplay, these do cause problems. To make these characters feel good, they have to fulfill a role that is more important - they have to be able to save lives and prevent kills. When they do this, they take center stage and exhibit all the problems pointed out in this thread and beyond. To be balanced, they have to feel crappy, and when your job is to heal and all you do is prolong death slowly, that's a pretty flaccid feeling as a player. You end up in a lose-lose. 

 

We experimented with this on Soraka, and while it's better than the above scenario, it's not perfect. Health costs caused people who wanted a priest (honestly, the group that you have to not satisfy to make rich PvP) disappointed when reason 3 was violated for something more akin to a martyr.

 

So what would I like to see? Generally, just support classes that follow the guideline of something that impacts a fight by helping others be more successful without having to always make things die. Timing-based defenses, buffs, peels, or heavy-cost healing can provide this. If some also can hit enemies to do the job, you open up CC and debuffs, creating a rich tapestry of mechanics available to answer the "why" of a helper character.

 

Chasing this design aesthetic (as opposed to the mechanics of healing) is the right approach in how to satisfy players without taking on the burden of fire-hose healing.

Edited by morello

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@morello

 

I like your post, I dont agree with much of it, but I like it :)

 

Just a few points. (not just about your post Morello)

 

1 :Pure healer does not = fire hose

This is just one way and a bad one at that, we have seen used in games.

Warrior priest in Warhammer Online was as pure a healer as any in a game that had strong class definitions.

They were nothing like fire hose healers in wow or EQ.

Pure healers in Tera are not fire hose at all.

 

2: Not having pure healers but instead having "something that impacts a fight by helping others be more successful without having to always make things die" leaves you with the same problem as pure healers

Players calling for the end of pure healers when listing their grievances with those healers allays talk about hating any class that forces them to change tactics/targets because they can no longer kill their intended.

Anything that stops them killing who ever they want is an unwanted element in the game.

One poster above even said no healer should take more than 10s to kill.

Any form of support class that can have a meaning full impact on a game will cause the same angst for people who dislike healers.

 

Not having healers is no great design achievement

Its just one more bottle of oil on the slippery slope to smush class design where all toons are all things to all situations.

 

I find it vaguely amusing that  MMO are all moving towards a mostly flavorless cclass/skill systems

Yet FPS games are becoming more and more old school RPG/MMO like in their design of classes

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I just don't want to see a situation like in every other MMO where the healer is so vital to the group's survival that it's an absolute necessity in any group activity and PvP mainly boils down to who can take out the enemy healers faster.

 

Also, as much as I love playing a healer, I don't want to feel guilty for picking another role because our group needs healers so desperately and I'm good at it. A situation I have run into many times in other MMOs. As much as I do love healing I crave variety sometimes and in most every MMO I feel myself being pushed back into the role of healer again, and again, and again, because there are always too few of us and I am a good healer. Even though there other things I can do well too.

Edited by andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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I just don't want to see a situation like in every other MMO where the healer is so vital to the group's survival that it's an absolute necessity in any group activity and PvP mainly boils down to who can take out the enemy healers faster.

 

Also, as much as I love playing a healer, I don't want to feel guilty for picking another role because our group needs healers so desperately and I'm good at it. A situation I have run into many times in other MMOs. As much as I do love healing I crave variety sometimes and in most every MMO I feel myself being pushed back into the role of healer again, and again, and again, because there are always too few of us and I am a good healer. Even though there other things I can do well too.

 

 

This is the fundamental divide.

Those who like to have classes/role that are NEEDED

and those who prefer no class to be needed

 

I would rather a game where there were 4,5,6+ MUST have rolls in any group 

Than a game where it does not mater who is on, what they play or even how they build a toon

 

Some of the most fun I have had is kicking %$#@ up hill in warhammer against better balanced groups, trying to find a way to use our DPS numbers to crack the other team (lets face it 70% of people in MMOs play DPS, thats where this problems begins)

 

But...thats all gone now

Along with any other PvP based games with strong class/role definitions.

Edited by steppenwolf

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