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Scree

The Power Of Stealth

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If you played Shadowbane, of which this game is clearly listing as a reference, then you know when I say how fun Stealth was in the game. My general questions to the crowd of stealthers out there is mostly to foster a discussion while we waste time waiting for the game to come out.

 

  1. What was your favorite stealth moment (in any game)?
  2. What are you hopes for stealth and stealth-enabled archetypes in Crowfall?
  3. What are your concerns for stealth/assassins in Crowfall?

To answer my own questions and kick things off...

 

1.) In Shadowbane, I remember having a buddy invite this guy into his group and "show him the ropes" as to where the nearby monsters were to the starting city. He began walking the guy away from the city, they were both basically the same level, and me in stealth behind him.

 

When we got him far enough away from the city that he couldn't run back, we jumped him and took his stuff. We repeated this about 20 more times on various other players, before we got chased down by a posse of our previous victims and they took all the stuff back ;>

 

The first guy we jumped later became in charge of some rabble mass of newbies and declared war on my guild a few times, for the sole crime of letting me become a guild member. He held a grudge for months!!!

 

2.) I really hope Stealth has to be countered by players who focus entirely on a "Reveal" ability. For every moment I spent focusing on the "stealth" skill, they have to spend focusing on the "reveal" skill to stand a chance at popping me out of hidden mode.  

 

3.) I'm very nervous that based on Shadowbane history, stealth archetypes are/were some of the worst at PVP (at launch + 2-3 months). I'm hoping that burst DPS is a speciality of our class, and that we are squishy as a balance.

 

 

What are your guys's hopes and aspirations for Assassins and Stealth play in Crowfall?

Edited by scree

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1. Just because I can be soo very cruel. Alliance Rogue in WoW. Sat outside Orgrimmar watching low level horde dueling. I'd sit in stealth and watch for whenever pvp flagged horde were dueling each other. As soon as the fight was over I would insta kill the Winner right infront of the loser. I would then leave after bowing to the Loser and walking off. In the end.... no one wins.

 

2. I agree with OP's idea and think it would work quite well. I also like the idea of having no proper stealth and using the Fae's wings as a form of quick movement hovering ever so slightly above the battlefield so in essence stealth is making sure your opposition doesn't look up.

 

3. I don't really have any concerns. I know Assassin is a Specialist and as such should be used in non direct terms. Information is power and as such the Assassin should be designed to gather weaknesses and help control a battle.

Edited by Ravencroft

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Enjoyed the Aracoix scout in Shadowbane and revealing other stealthers. Expecting any other winged race to behave in a similar manner to the Aracoix. And wouldn't be suprised if the stealth and revel mechanics behave very similiar to Shadowbane.

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I have a feeling a good variety of Archetypes and promotion classes will have access to stealth. It would be silly for such a mechanic to be wasted on just one of them. With that said who knows..

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I loved stealth in SB, if I had to pick an absolute favorite it would be a tie between my Aracoix skydancer bow scout or my Shade wererat throwing dagger assassin. Im hoping that as the spiritual successor to shadowbane that stealth, tracking, and revealing work in generally the same way with a little quality of life tune ups. I have a feeling that early on especially stealthing spec groups will be very strong as people slowly learn the mechanics to counter them. I also feel that as long as the assassins damage isnt handicapped off the bat, it will be the primary stealthing class as with no tab targetting people will need to learn the lead and physics drops of the bow to be effective. 


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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Would stalker be more stealth than assassins? I feel like assassins will have a variety of skills but stealth will be stalkers.

 

Actually as of now only Assassins and Rangers have the stealth specialty. It looks like Stalkers will be higher burst damage ranged dmg but without the utility of stealtjh... This may change based on what they gain with promo classes but as it stands now, no stealth for stalkers.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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Fancy an explanation for us non-SB scrubs how that worked back then? :D

 

Basically how stealth worked in Shadowbane was you would use the stealth ability and would become stealthed for a period of time, (If I recall correctly different classes had different stealth "ranks" which would determine how quickly you could go into stealth. Other abilities like Hide, would give you an instant vanish but you couldnt move if you had been popped, shadowstep which was a short range teleport usable from stealth. 

 

       On the other side you had Scouts who not only could stealth, but had tracking which would give them a list of players in the area. Once they selected a player they would get an arrow on the ground pointing in the general direction(Sometimes very buggy lol). When they got into the area they could pop a short range reveal spell which would pop stealthers, while also having a personal "see invisibility" power to help them pinpoint. Usually this was followed up with a weapon power with a bleed or poison on it to keep stealthers from instantly vanishing back up.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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I'm hoping that Stealth is functionally a measure of degrees. I have a feeling many classes will have access to the Stealth ability, but that its rank limits will be fairly low. Basically it means if you move around a lot while Stealthed you'll pop in and out of it. Speciality classes like Assassins will have a far higher level cap on the Stealth skill and thus able to move around much better than the majority of classes.

 

I'm sure some Archetypes won't have ANY access to the skill, much like I'm sure Assassins won't be dual wielding 2 handed hammers (much to my dissapointment). 

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I'm hoping that Stealth is functionally a measure of degrees. I have a feeling many classes will have access to the Stealth ability, but that its rank limits will be fairly low. Basically it means if you move around a lot while Stealthed you'll pop in and out of it. Speciality classes like Assassins will have a far higher level cap on the Stealth skill and thus able to move around much better than the majority of classes.

 

I'm sure some Archetypes won't have ANY access to the skill, much like I'm sure Assassins won't be dual wielding 2 handed hammers (much to my dissapointment). 

 

I agree, I think that leads to many gameplay mechanics that can be used by skilled players to push the limits of their archetype and promo class. I dream of scout special forces units, leap frogging through the woods as they pick off targets hounding them, as well as assassins who have the detection range and timing so well down to muscle memory that they slip through an enemy encampment to burst down an officer and slip off into the shadows.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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So they confirmed earlier today in Twitter Q&A that multiple archetypes will have access to Stealth and that it could potentially show up in/as a discipline.

 

This means it has the potential to be a "required" skill for some guilds wishing to operate completely in stealth. I have a feeling it might get toned down if this is the case. Still, good news for stealthers.

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So they confirmed earlier today in Twitter Q&A that multiple archetypes will have access to Stealth and that it could potentially show up in/as a discipline.

 

This means it has the potential to be a "required" skill for some guilds wishing to operate completely in stealth. I have a feeling it might get toned down if this is the case. Still, good news for stealthers.

It's pretty early to be calling for nerfs.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Fancy an explanation for us non-SB scrubs how that worked back then? :D

Just because you didn't play SB doesn't mean you're a scrub. It simply means you're underprivileged. :)

 

Stealth worked like this:

 

  • Rogue Bases were granted access to Hide and Sneak.
  • Shades as a race were granted access to Hide and Sneak.
  • Hide started with 10 points granted, and was trainable to level 40.
  • Increasing your trains in Hide decreased the casting time from 4? seconds to 1 second.
  • At 18 hide skill, sneak was unlocked with 0 trains.
  • Sneak cost significantly more stamina, and had no reduction in cast time with trains.
  • Casting spells, attacking another player, and receiving damage all removed you from stealth, as did the timer running out of time on both hide and sneak.
  • While in Hide, stealth was also broken by movement of your avatar.
  • While in Sneak, you could freely move, with a movement penalty imposed. As you trained sneak to 40, the movement penalty was reduced. At 40 skill, I believe it was 10% reduction in movement speed.
  • Mage bases were also granted a cast-able stealth, also trainable to power of 40.
  • Scouts were the only class able to see characters in stealth if their skill was trained over power level 20.
  • This was accomplished by using their "Detect Hidden" power, which allowed them to see other characters in stealth for 60 seconds.
  • Scouts also had a "Reveal" power, which at a heavy stamina cost and long casting time, revealed all characters within a large AoE radius of the caster.
  • Shades could see up to a stealth skill level of 15 naturally, as could characters who chose to take the "Witchsight" rune.
  • Some jewelry pieces also allowed you to see up to a power level of 15.
  • Bounty Hunter allowed users to train Detect Hidden to a power level of 20. It was a discipline rune that all fighter or rogue bases could take.

 

Late in the game's life cycle, changes were made that grossly unbalanced stealth. As a result, I am ignoring those, as it could give you the impression that the guys here agreed with the unbalanced changes made.


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Just because you didn't play SB doesn't mean you're a scrub. It simply means you're underprivileged. :)

 

Stealth worked like this:

 

 

  • Rogue Bases were granted access to Hide and Sneak.
  • Shades as a race were granted access to Hide and Sneak.
  • Hide started with 10 points granted, and was trainable to level 40.
  • Increasing your trains in Hide decreased the casting time from 4? seconds to 1 second.
  • At 18 hide skill, sneak was unlocked with 0 trains.
  • Sneak cost significantly more stamina, and had no reduction in cast time with trains.
  • Casting spells, attacking another player, and receiving damage all removed you from stealth, as did the timer running out of time on both hide and sneak.
  • While in Hide, stealth was also broken by movement of your avatar.
  • While in Sneak, you could freely move, with a movement penalty imposed. As you trained sneak to 40, the movement penalty was reduced. At 40 skill, I believe it was 10% reduction in movement speed.
  • Mage bases were also granted a cast-able stealth, also trainable to power of 40.
  • Scouts were the only class able to see characters in stealth if their skill was trained over power level 20.
  • This was accomplished by using their "Detect Hidden" power, which allowed them to see other characters in stealth for 60 seconds.
  • Scouts also had a "Reveal" power, which at a heavy stamina cost and long casting time, revealed all characters within a large AoE radius of the caster.
  • Shades could see up to a stealth skill level of 15 naturally, as could characters who chose to take the "Witchsight" rune.
  • Some jewelry pieces also allowed you to see up to a power level of 15.
  • Bounty Hunter allowed users to train Detect Hidden to a power level of 20. It was a discipline rune that all fighter or rogue bases could take.
 

Late in the game's life cycle, changes were made that grossly unbalanced stealth. As a result, I am ignoring those, as it could give you the impression that the guys here agreed with the unbalanced changes made.

That sounds amusing but somewhat binary. Essentially these were invisibility powers with limits and counterspells, by your description.

I hope that they are able to add more depth to this mechanic. Perhaps a camouflage effect instead of full invisibility?

 

Disguise

- your skill determines quality

- difficulty has a major effect on quality (druid is easier than champion, neutral is easier than friendly, etc)

 

Food for thought,

Copperstall

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it would be interesting to see them split 'stealth' into any number categories...disguise, camouflage, movement, illusion...and then tie these to the environment and/or equipment. ie. being 'stealthy' in grassland is a significantly different/requires different equipment than in forests or in urban environments.

 

I guess it just depends upon how much of a point sink they want it to be.

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That would definitely be interesting. Kind of like the Civ5 unit skills - you can fight better on rough terrain or flat, or both if you level it enough.

yeah...civ being an interesting element since they've already noted it as a 'model' (for lack of a better word) for how a campaign would start.

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Some of the most fun I had in Sb was playing Dagger/BW scouts and tracking down thieves me and a couple friends actually ran a scout assassin and thief in Sb the thief would go around and find other thieves and work with them let us know where they were and we would go kill him and the other thieves then all meet up later and split the loot LOL " I guess there really isn't any honor among thieves

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You can rest assured this mechanic will probably be one of the most popular. Really wish they'd just tell us details at this point.

 

The Shadowbane implementation wasn't perfect, but it was unique in the world of MMOs. The funnier thing was when you were tracking a stealther. The little arrow would appear above your head showing you which way they went. IF the arrow suddenly pointed right behind you? You had just stepped through them :P

 

Quite a surprise. Many a day I spent hunting players on a character with no ability to actually fight back. I was just a scout. Regretted that pretty quickly!

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