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Zomnivore

Mmo Crafting The Bane Of My Existence.

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Crafting has its place. I prefer to be in the action but also like sitting back and making my own stuff or helping make stuff for ppl who need it. Some login days might just sit there and craft...(Like in ESO).

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As long as crafting is easy and accessible for all. Crafting needs to offer both ease and depth.

 

ease for those who want to do the minimum to get by, and depth for those who want it to be a focus.

 

I actually think ESO had a very good crafting system. Something similar would do well in CF... I think

Edited by Kell

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Interestingly enough all of you seem to forget about the decay thingy,

if items decay, "recrafting the intem" would become a thing at a regular basis the longer the game goes

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Ace has mentioned this quite a few times as a design goal, which was one of my attractions to CF.  Finally, an MMO that treats crafting as a playable role for those that love crafting more than fighting.  Crafting has always been a viable role in most MMOs, but it's always been a "side-role".  CF is making it a dedicated support role, much like healing roles in most MMOs.

 

If you can trade character specialization for crafting grind...that would be a genre game changer. 

 

The existing 'crafting' model of just about every game is

a) spend 1000s of hours gathering crap

B) spend more thousands chopping big pieces of crap into smaller pieces

c)spend even more thousands of hours fusing those small pieces of crap back into giant pieces of crap

d) and finally spend, yes, thousands more hours chiseling that giant piece of fused magical crap into something useful (albeit with a .05% success ratio). 

 

If we could say, trade this multi-thousand-hour-mind-numbing-grind for a model that simply allows a character to more-often-than-not craft a quality piece of <whatever> most of the time, when provided with the correct set of materials and tools...providing it has invested a requisite amount of training is skills to perform that task...well that would be just fantastic.

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Interestingly enough all of you seem to forget about the decay thingy,

if items decay, "recrafting the intem" would become a thing at a regular basis the longer the game goes

I'm not sure what you've read to give you the impression that anyone has forgotten this. In most games, "recrafting the item" already takes place hundreds of times just so the crafter can skill up and I certainly expect it to happen plenty here as well. The decay just means that someone might actually *want* these items to replace their decayed items instead of the crafter just dumping them all off on an NPC merchant for a handful of copper (or in Crowfall, salvaging them).

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Warning: Comments may contain humor and/or snark.

 

Crafting has its place. I prefer to be in the action but also like sitting back and making my own stuff or helping make stuff for ppl who need it. Some login days might just sit there and craft...(Like in ESO).

 

I'm sure you've tried casual crafting in other games, but CF is all about play2crush.  There are no gonzo crafters in Crowfall!  We do more with less and make you pay for it too.

 

As long as crafting is easy and accessible for all. Crafting needs to offer both ease and depth.

 

ease for those who want to do the minimum to get by, and depth for those who want it to be a focus.

 

No. Crafting is for the dedicated, not the casual. Sure you can pick up a rock and tie it to a stick and call it an axe, but that won't make it true.  Deep, and Easy are mortal enemies.  If you want to do the minimum, don't craft.  Crafting is one of the pillars of the vision of Crowfall.  Crafters don't ride unicorns and our hammers don't have safety tips.

 

If we could say, trade this multi-thousand-hour-mind-numbing-grind for a model that simply allows a character to more-often-than-not craft a quality piece of <whatever> most of the time, when provided with the correct set of materials and tools...providing it has invested a requisite amount of training is skills to perform that task...well that would be just fantastic.

 

Congratulations, Crowfall is grind-free thanks to the passive skill systems.  In both combat and crafting we will have no need to grind meaningless activities.  It's straight to the fun.  End game is now!  Anti-crafting gonzos need not apply!

 

 

Crafting should be (and will be in CF) meaningful, deep, engaging, and important to every successful Campaign.  We Dedicated Crafters are what make the game happen.  We make the swords. We make the armor. We build the walls.  We build the siege engines.  There is no game without us.  Know us. Fear us.  Never again forget that Crafting is the ultimate expression of Hardcore!  We are PVP! Bow to your new overlords or be known as a custard-head! (no filter there. I'm saying you have pudding for brains)

 

 

 

 

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I've seen several quotes from people that indicate that they want to craft, but want to minimize the time that they spend crafting. Or rather, they want the *rewards* from crafting, but actually want to *craft* as little as possible. Even to the point where there are requests to spend no time crafting by being able to do it when they're offline.

 

I don't see the same requests for combat activities - no one is asking "Hey, let me crush other people in combat, but make it quick and don't make me spend a lot of time on it". This is because many people find combat to be intrinsically rewarding - they enjoy combat for the sake of the activity itself. Those who want to minimize time crafting are extrinsically motivated by the benefits of crafting, but they are not really "crafters" - they don't want to spend time on the activity of crafting.

 

I can certainly understand the attitude. MMO crafting for the most part has consisted of collecting commoditized components, then navigating a menu system so they can press a button to make 50 of an item so they can hopefully skill up enough times to make the item they really want. While they do this they have no meaningful input into the result, which is probably strictly limited to 'success' or 'failure'. Historically, the creation portion of crafting has literally been something that a monkey could learn to do (and the monkey would get bored).

 

The key to properly implementing crafting is to create an activity that at least a reasonable subset of players will be *intrisicially* motivated to do. They will be willing to spend time on it because they actually enjoy the activity, not just for the rewards. Psychologists tell us that there are five factors that generally lead to intrinsic motivation:

 

1) Challenge: The goal should be challenging, but attainable and success should not be automatic. A crafter needs to always be able to select a difficulty level that is appropriate to them whether they are a beginner or an expert. The classic psychology book, "Flow" by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, is commonly referenced in game design because it describes conditions conducive to keeping a player "in the zone" and enjoying themselves. Managing the level of challenge is key, as is constant performance feedback to the player so they can quickly make needed adjustments.

 

2) Curiosity: Learning and discovery are intrinsically motivated activities. Crafting should have a long learning curve and many new things to discover even after a long time. Forcing a player to move faster than their skill gains call for can be detrimental, however, as they may feel the goals are not attainable.

 

3) Control: Self-direction is key to intrinsic motivation. The player should have the opportunity to choose their own goals. An excellent counter-example is that crafters in World of Warcraft usually can't craft a helm until their crafting skill is around 100. The skill gains are structured in such a way that they need to craft at least 100 things to get the opportunity to craft a helm. Let players work towards any common goals early in the process and let players efforts be directed towards specific results.

 

4) Cooperation and competition: The satisfaction of helping others or comparing their own performance with others can increase intrinsic motivation. Crafting interdependence and "hallmarks" can contribute to this.

 

5) Recognition: Recognition from others can increase intrinsic motivation, which is another great reason for a mark showing who made a piece of equipment. Recognition could be as simple as a new challenge to face after mastering the previous one, but I am not in favor of the patronizing attempts at motivation that many games use such as prompting "Great Job!" no matter what your results may be.

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You forgot profit.

 

I disagree that it should be all about the experience of crafting though, some (like me) do it for the rewards, the outcomes.

 

Does everyone who fights, fight because they enjoy it, or because it's a means to an end... more territory, more power?

Edited by M0rdred

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You forgot profit.

 

I disagree that it should be all about the experience of crafting though, some (like me) do it for the rewards, the outcomes.

 

Does everyone who fights, fight because they enjoy it, or because it's a means to an end... more territory, more power?

I'm sure that there are some people that fight primarily for rewards. However, the profit you are talking about is only *virtual* profit. Unless you are getting *paid* to play this game, you are doing it because you are intrinsically motivated to perform some activity within it. If you are intending to participate in combat, you either are doing so because you enjoy it or because you think it will enhance some other activity you enjoy (i.e. playing the throne game, building, collecting materials, griefing). The scenario where you are acting based on being extrinsically rewarded only exists if you're expecting to receive *actual* extrinsic rewards.

 

Edited last sentence for spelling/grammar 3/27

Edited by leadpipe

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You forgot profit.

 

I disagree that it should be all about the experience of crafting though, some (like me) do it for the rewards, the outcomes.

 

Does everyone who fights, fight because they enjoy it, or because it's a means to an end... more territory, more power?

 

You're going to be disappointed in CF Crafting if your primary focus is for profit.  CF Crafting is a role, which means that the experience better be enjoyable or there's going to be a massive demand and nowhere near the number of crafters needed for it.  So, I disagree... crafting will require an experience that outweighs the outcome.  It's still a means to an end, but profit isn't the main objective.... providing a steady supply of armor and weapons is.

 

As for those that prefer PvP combat, most (especially the eSports types) do fight for the enjoyment of the challenge.  There is no reward that will compare to the adrenaline rush of a good challenge and the enjoyment of winning.  Loot/reward is secondary.  Sure, they will be working toward an objective, but personally, they strive for a good fight and winning it.

 

A rewarding and challenging experience needs to be present in crafting if Ace still wishes it to be a valid campaign support role.  Otherwise, we're in for a very rocky ride.

 

As for profit, exported artifacts, relics, and high-end rare materials will hold more value than anything crafted, except maybe a few of the high end items that require a specialized crafter.

Edited by Nyt

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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As for profit, exported artifacts, relics, and high-end rare materials will hold more value than anything crafted, except maybe a few of the high end items that require a specialized crafter.

 

If they design the system correctly 'everything' will hold a value, for somebody. Nothing worse than a system where 99.9% of the items are utter crap. In an ideal system 'everything' has to be crafted, and it all has strengths and weaknesses.

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As for those that prefer PvP combat, most (especially the eSports types) do fight for the enjoyment of the challenge.  There is no reward that will compare to the adrenaline rush of a good challenge and the enjoyment of winning.  Loot/reward is secondary.  Sure, they will be working toward an objective, but personally, they strive for a good fight and winning it.

 

I prefer PvP combat, specifically, because of the rewards. Most notably, people drop way better loot than mobs. Those "good drop" moments in pvE games are few and far between, but in PvP games you get really solid "good drop" moments all the time.

 

The challenge is nice, and the interaction with my opponents is nice, but the actual fighting is hollow, boring and pointless to me if there's not a cash prize at the end. If I just want to enjoy combat I generally play shooters, and I don't HATE mmo combat, but it wears thin really fast in systems where there's nothing at stake to win or lose.

 

Crafting occupies a similar interest sphere for most people. You want a generally enjoyable crafting system, but you wouldn't want to just craft items and hand them off to a trashcan either. You expect that they infer some monetary or combat benefit for yourself or your allies because that's the primary reward structure.

 

That doesn't mean it can't be fun, but in a game like this the primary motivator in all cases is "stuff" and "winning" because "winning" generally means "stuff"

 

People don't fight over most hisec moons in EVE becuase there's no "stuff" in them. They go freaking ape over R64s in null however. I didn't mine fight in Shadowbane just to win fights. I did it to claim mines, because mines gave me "stuff" heck I even made a habit of purposely misleading and avoiding fights (like most groups) in order to up my claims. I didn't found or destroy cities just for fights. I did it to gain the ability to make "stuff" get a teleport closer to a spawn of mobs to farm "stuff" or prevent the opposition from getting more "stuff" than me.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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What PopeUrban said.

 

I would not call myself a dedicated crafter for the very reason of my not doing it because I enjoy it. For the most part I do not. The part I enjoy is working out the logistics, setting up supply lines and finally ensuring a proper market for my goods and then using accumulated wealth to get ahead. Crafting, like combat is a means to an end.

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What PopeUrban said.

 

I would not call myself a dedicated crafter for the very reason of my not doing it because I enjoy it. For the most part I do not. The part I enjoy is working out the logistics, setting up supply lines and finally ensuring a proper market for my goods and then using accumulated wealth to get ahead. Crafting, like combat is a means to an end.

 

Yeah, I tend to set up harvesting & production systems on open minecraft servers then trade my goods for rare drops (when I play PvP minecraft). 

CopperStall

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If they design the system correctly 'everything' will hold a value, for somebody. Nothing worse than a system where 99.9% of the items are utter crap. In an ideal system 'everything' has to be crafted, and it all has strengths and weaknesses.

 

I didn't say that crafted items have no value, just stating that non-crafted items will hold greater value outside of campaigns [in the EKs].  Within campaigns, armor and weapons will hold higher value because that's where the need is.  Outside of campaigns, in the EKs, it's going to be about cosmetics, artifacts, relics, and w/e else is in high demand with low supply within the EKs.  You could consider there being 2 distinct markets with completely opposite supply/demand.

 

Guilds will have dedicated crafters to maintain supply within the campaign, which they will also feed crafters with gathered/mined resources and materials via caravans.

 

So, yes, everything will hold value, but that doesn't necessarily and directly infer crafted profit.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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I hope it is a huge time-sink. Not that I want it to be grindy but, I want it to have real depth to it. I want items to be made quickly but, I hope that between proficiency and other crafting related systems that it takes a while to master.

 

Now, I know that the skill itself is mostly passive training but, (sorry for beating a dead horse) I can't stress enough how much I want to see some kind of difference between hardcore crafters and casual. Pleasssseeeee let me put proof in my pudding.

 

Pudding Proof. 

 

This 100%.

 

I want the dedicated crafters to shine above the casual ones that just do it for the sake of doing it.

 

I want there to be KNOWN crafters in CF, so that you know when you get quality items and when you aren't - not just a bunch of the same type of 'rare' item that everybody can produce.

 

This also enters the field of mining/ harvesting resources. Those who yield better crafting ingredients should be able to craft (or at least supply to those wanting to craft) better items.


"The blade isn't the only part of a sword."

9 years of Ragnarok Online, 9 years of EVE Online -- Beta tester of Planetside 2, ESO, RIFT, Warhammer Online, SWTOR, and Elite: Dangerous.

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As for profit, exported artifacts, relics, and high-end rare materials will hold more value than anything crafted, except maybe a few of the high end items that require a specialized crafter.

 

Artifacts and Relics will be player craftable also.  Strong indications that buildings in the EK will be crafter made as well.  And high-end rare materials will have value because of their use in crafting, not because of their inherent rareness. 

 

I agree with you that there will probably be two different markets between the EK and Campaigns.  But I expect (fervently hope) that Crafters will be vital to all developments in all aspects of the game.

 

Profit is an odd concept sometimes.  If I trade a crafted relic to you for an amount of resources larger than I expended upon it, then I've profited.  Rolling in piles of arbitrary coins is an old model in MMOs.  Profit in Crowfall (in my expectations) will revolve around gaining resources for finished products so I can make more products to gain more resources to keep the cycle growing. 

 

Also the standard MMO inflation should be greatly reduced with all items being both crafted and degradable, and all resources limited in availability.

 

Without infinite stock NPC vendors (thank you ACE) we will see drastically different emergent play in the exchange of goods and services.  I am excited to see this develop.

 

 

* I was watching Shark Tank while typing, so apologies if not entirely clear.

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This 100%.

 

I want the dedicated crafters to shine above the casual ones that just do it for the sake of doing it.

 

I want there to be KNOWN crafters in CF, so that you know when you get quality items and when you aren't - not just a bunch of the same type of 'rare' item that everybody can produce.

 

This also enters the field of mining/ harvesting resources. Those who yield better crafting ingredients should be able to craft (or at least supply to those wanting to craft) better items.

I don't think you will see too many casual crafters. If you are investing in crafting skills, it means you are taking them in lieu of combat skills. Most people aren't going to waste their disciplines on crafting skills if they aren't serious about it, and they aren't going to waste their time training crafting skills if they aren't serious about it. Some people will have a crafter alt, but how much time are they going to spend playing that character? How much stuff will the craft? If they only craft for themselves, they aren't going to be able to make a name for themselves.

 

The people who dedicate themselves to crafting will be able to stand out from the crowd.

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I think the idea that you guys are true crafters and that me, and my ilk of mmo crafting haters are posers, is funny.

 

In my mind you guys are holding onto terrible regressive phone game like mechanics because you're addicted to the skinner box system, not because you actually enjoy it, or that it couldn't be improved on.

 

This is the same problem holding back mobas atm. Everyone thinks Dota is the pinnacle (when its in fact an OOOLLLDDDD design made slap shot by modders) and they threaten bloody murder when anyone tries to evolve the genre like heroes of the storm, instead of catering to the tastes of a subset of 'hardcore' gamer that won't grow/adapt/be accepting to/of new gameplay. (not that heroes of the storm is perfect its just evolving the genre in ways other games refuse)

 

I get the sentiment that yall want crafting to be rewarding but 'battle crafting' is something you think is a grind. then you talk about crafting should be hardcore, and not for the casual...I don't see where these stand side by side as statements and hold together as reasonable when taken together.

 

 

If crafting should have value and 'mean something' I don't see how it can do that when you're easily replaced with bots, and by creating and grinding/passively training out an alt account. If gathering materials is where the real interesting engaging gameplay is (because its pvp) then I don't see why crafting should be dedicated at all.

 

You're not doing anything that a bot, or an alt wouldn't do better, unless you're economics majors and gaming the econ on an auction house level, I don't see what you're doing as hardcore, or meaningful in any way what so ever.

 

And as a measure of individual skill I also don't see the value, usually crafters are carried HARD by their guilds, and as individuals have no real measurable personal skill at all.

 

Pushing enter when you have the required materials of a recipe isn't exactly the epic show of finesse and prowess I expect when someone say's they're proud of what they accomplished.

 

Failing multiple times at pushing a button, and then succeeding once also isn't exactly impressive. They have slot machines at the gambling dins you know.

 

Crafting by design will be a grind in this game and by all counts will be an onslaught. You can make that mean something, to accomplish as a feat, or you can make that merely a button pressing routine that is merely a time-cost.

 

You can either have my respect as skilled gamers or you have my disrespect as monotonous toilers playing slots with the illusion of purpose.

 

You're playing a game. You're here to have fun, if you do that by being a passive zonked out social gamer don't pretend to be hardcore. Don't do the genre a disservice by misrepresenting gameplay as such.

 

#shotsfired #salt #recordstop #glovesoff #thingsweresaid #thatguy #hashtag #truth #opinion #likethatsmyopinionman #atsomepointyouregoingtorealizethatthisisjustaforumforrepresentingourideasandthatatsomepointwealljustwanttobelovedandinsomeregardthisistobetakeninatonethatisntthatserious

Edited by Zomnivore

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