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Zomnivore

Mmo Crafting The Bane Of My Existence.

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I agree with Zomnivore

 

CF has pretty much done as much as it can do for crafting as a profession.

Its the best system you can get based on two things:

Collecting resources.

Customization of items.

 

Its pretty much the best you can do, and with passive skill leveling progress is all based on time.

With the minecraft construction system their popularity is assured.

 

BUT, and you know it was coming, crafting as a system will never have any meaningful challenge or exploration.

 

In MMORPGs there are two types of crafters:

Trader/Manger based

Explorer/Hunter based

 

And it is all based on how they acquire materials because there is no other challenge.

Customization is nothing but a spreadsheet optimizing based on values from a wiki, even if there was a crafting mini-game it would not be a real challenge.

 

The Trader/Mangers are based on navigating the economic system or managing people to acquire resources.

The Explorer/Hunters collect their materials themselves and fully participate in the combat game.

 

Because of the reliance on factions and guilds the Trader/Mangers will actually be less on campaigns, they tend to thrive in open economies.

Instead there will be replaced with minecraft builders which is a creative challenge.

 

A crafting system will never be a mastery challenge in itself. So its pointless to call yourself master crafters.

Edited by adrix89

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BUT, and you know it was coming, crafting as a system will never have any meaningful challenge or exploration.

 

Thats why some developers need to change the way crafting works. For years u have that standarized way of crafting. collect stuff, lvl crafting, collect more rare stuff, lvl up crafting more. I am not saying this is a bad thing. But why is it always like this?

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Thats why some developers need to change the way crafting works. For years u have that standarized way of crafting. collect stuff, lvl crafting, collect more rare stuff, lvl up crafting more. I am not saying this is a bad thing. But why is it always like this?

It's not that its too standardized that is the problem, it's that its straight up impossible.

The collect stuff is the whole crafting game loop it is based off.

Even the most complicated crafting systems like Minecraft or Factorio is all about collecting and managing resources.

 

In games that utilize crafting well the crafting is the reward not the game.

Edited by adrix89

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I agree with Zomnivore

 

CF has pretty much done as much as it can do for crafting as a profession.

Its the best system you can get based on two things:

Collecting resources.

Customization of items.

 

Its pretty much the best you can do, and with passive skill leveling progress is all based on time.

With the minecraft construction system their popularity is assured.

 

BUT, and you know it was coming, crafting as a system will never have any meaningful challenge or exploration.

 

In MMORPGs there are two types of crafters:

Trader/Manger based

Explorer/Hunter based

 

And it is all based on how they acquire materials because there is no other challenge.

Customization is nothing but a spreadsheet optimizing based on values from a wiki, even if there was a crafting mini-game it would not be a real challenge.

 

The Trader/Mangers are based on navigating the economic system or managing people to acquire resources.

The Explorer/Hunters collect their materials themselves and fully participate in the combat game.

 

Because of the reliance on factions and guilds the Trader/Mangers will actually be less on campaigns, they tend to thrive in open economies.

Instead there will be replaced with minecraft builders which is a creative challenge.

 

A crafting system will never be a mastery challenge in itself. So its pointless to call yourself master crafters.

 

 

Are you saying that mathematics, economics, and politics can never be a challenge?


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Are you saying that mathematics, economics, and politics can never be a challenge?

Reread what I wrote.

 

Crafting is only a resource acquisition challenge, in other words the trader/manager for the economical and political challenge.

And the explorer/hunter for direct resource acquisition from the game world.

 

There is no master crafters, the challenge is not the crafting itself but the resources.

There is no master blacksmith, only master traders and master managers.

 

Furthermore because of the reliance on guild and factions the trader/manger challenge will be severely limited since you will be provided for by the guild.

Edited by adrix89

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Here's another factor; that the campaigns have a beginning middle and end. How will this affect crafting? This is how I imagine it:

At the beginning everyone might have to be gathering resources and may be doing a little crafting, especially if you come into the world with a limited inventory. As the game progresses and the structures are built and territories are staked, fighting will become more full-time and the crafters remain on the home front making ever more powerful items as economies of scale take shape. Some fighters on the front lines may, at midgame, still have to put in a bit of time making fortifications or repairing/ammo crafting where supply lines don't exist.  But by the end of the campaign only the dedicated crafters will be actively crafting. The basics will all be taken care of by thralls, and the fulltime crafters will have the resources to be making the best weapons and armor as well as the most advanced structures and siegers. All else being equal, at this point there will be no reason for fighters to craft because nothing they could make could possible change the outcome of a battle. If resouces have a scarcity, at the end of the game there may not even be any basic resources for casual crafters to take advantage of. Only the advanced materials and resources will remain and only the dedicated crafters will be able to craft them.

 

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I do  not like crafting what so ever in most games but if it makes you feel like you are crafting a good cloak that you had been gathering materials for a long time in order to make. You see your new cloak on your self when you charge into battle knowing it will evantually be broken, stolen or destroyed. Crafting a 100 gloves and than another 100 hats in order to be able to buy a this scroll so you can finally make a decent shield that will be replaced after 1 week of raiding/dungeons is very boring.

 

Arro


Arrogance diminishes wisdom

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Reread what I wrote.

There is no master crafters, the challenge is not the crafting itself but the resources.

Well- I had a different experience in SWG.

 

In SWG it was not just getting resources but choosing which ones to use and when.  I'm bone weary of repeating this so I'll just link this post that goes through the crafting process for a ship in SWG.

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5732-short-article-on-crafting-by-isarii/page-2  See my post on Page 2.

 

In related news, I double dog dare you to say to Ifada that she was not a master crafter.  She was my toon that built those Firesprays and no one made faster ships.  Hint: Let the wookiee win...

 

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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Although I'm not good at it yet, I know how to forge metal knives or swords. If they used the actual forging process to design a item creation process, not some lame minigame, it could be challenging.

First, you must heat the metal. In reality, every alloy has a different ideal temperature range, going to go too low and you're just damaging your hammer while to high damages the alloy. Now the forges we will be using in the game would have been made by the original blacksmith so each one would be a little different. Knowledge of how long it takes to heat each metal and how hot the forge gets would have been passed down from master to apprentice. We though would have to figure out out. A Forging skill would give us as eye for how long is long enough.

Once the metal is hot enough, it must be drawn out. This involves hammering it into the length you need. You'd start with low hammering power and speed, which would require you to reheat the metal (don't get it too hot) to finish drawing out, at the cost of quality, until you get your Hammering skill up. After drawing the sword is heated a section at a time and hammered on both sides until it looks more like a sword.

After, the hammering is complete the sword is annealed (heated again and very slowly cooled) do that the metal is soft edge can be applied with a file. The sword is then reheated to annealing temperature, but quenched (dunked on a bath) to rapidly cool the metal and harden it. Too much time, or to little will ruin the blade. The ability to apply the edge and tell how much quenching is enough will be governed by the Hardening skill. The player would have some sort of rough meter that would become more accurate with increased levels, but only experience would say how much is enough.

Finally the sword is tempered. It is heated again, but to a much lower temperature and quenched. Tempering hardens the metal so that the edge is durable. Too little tempering and you essentially end up with a large butter knife, it won't hold an edge. Too much and the metal will be brittle and break. I'm not sure what to call that skill, Tempering I guess.

With the metalwork done, the crossguard, handle (the handle doesn't have to be metal, I like leather or bone), and pommel are attached. Be careful, lest your sword come loose and your customer face their enemy with naught but a handle The edge is sharpened with a whetstone. This is the Finishing skill.

Each step, Drawing, Annealing, Tempering, and Finishing, would be measured against an ideal standard for the type of sword (shirt, long, one-hand, hand-and a half, etc.) and you would receive points for how close you get to the standard. More points = highest quality. Craft and absolutely perfect sword (a very difficult/nearly impossible task) and you can look forward to a legendary quality weapon. Every alloy is naturally different, so the crafter will have to learn both the vagaries of their particular forge and the qualities of the alloys they are using. Using a new alloy naturally increases the chance to fail as you have to learn how to work the metal, working the metal is more difficult, and the tolerances change. If forced away from one forge, or one the campaign ends, a smith would need to adjust to new conditions, but skilled players won't be daunted. They will adapt and overcome.

 

I don't expect the dev team to make the crafting process with that much detail (but I'd love them forever if they did), but if they come up with yet another stupid puzzle minigame or something equally unrelated to making an actual item, I will be badly disappointed by them. They can add a 'Make now button'for people that like RNG, but give me my skill. PvPers get to shine on their battlefield, let me shine in mine.

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I don't expect the dev team to make the crafting process with that much detail (but I'd love them forever if they did), but if they come up with yet another stupid puzzle minigame or something equally unrelated to making an actual item, I will be badly disappointed by them. They can add a 'Make now button'for people that like RNG, but give me my skill. PvPers get to shine on their battlefield, let me shine in mine.

 

On the one hand thats totally sweet. On the other what would you have them do for leather working? Its not much good to make some of the safe area crafting involved and phone the rest in. Inconsistancies like that are jarring and weird.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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Thats why some developers need to change the way crafting works. For years u have that standarized way of crafting. collect stuff, lvl crafting, collect more rare stuff, lvl up crafting more. I am not saying this is a bad thing. But why is it always like this?

I quite agree on that.

Crafting in and of itself is an awesome thing. They just really need to revamp the way it is done.

 

So instead of clicking on an item and watching a bar fill, have something more active!

The world can be made a lot more immersive if they were to make crafting more appealing.


"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

A solid quote, I'd say.

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On the one hand thats totally sweet. On the other what would you have them do for leather working? Its not much good to make some of the safe area crafting involved and phone the rest in. Inconsistancies like that are jarring and weird.

Making leather involves: 1) soaking the hides in foul smelling chemicals to strip away fur, 2) mechanically stripping the hide of large pieces of flesh, 3) soaking it in more chemicals to make sure the hide tans properly, 4) soaking the hide in taning solution, 5) drying the tanned hide, 6) mechanically 'chewing' the leather to make it soft, so that it can be cut and sown.

All I know about leather making I learned from Dirty Jobs, but there are plenty of ways for you the craftsman to screw it up without relying on RNG. I would imagine skills involving knowing which chemicals to used depending on the type of skin, relative proportions or concentrations, timing, and dexterity so you don't tear them to pieces would govern your success at tanning.

 

Before anyone asks, I know absolutely nothing about weaving.

Edited by ZaphodBeeblebrox

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Although I'm not good at it yet, I know how to forge metal knives or swords. If they used the actual forging process to design a item creation process, not some lame minigame, it could be challenging.

First, you must heat the metal. In reality, every alloy has a different ideal temperature range, going to go too low and you're just damaging your hammer while to high damages the alloy. Now the forges we will be using in the game would have been made by the original blacksmith so each one would be a little different. Knowledge of how long it takes to heat each metal and how hot the forge gets would have been passed down from master to apprentice. We though would have to figure out out. A Forging skill would give us as eye for how long is long enough.

Once the metal is hot enough, it must be drawn out. This involves hammering it into the length you need. You'd start with low hammering power and speed, which would require you to reheat the metal (don't get it too hot) to finish drawing out, at the cost of quality, until you get your Hammering skill up. After drawing the sword is heated a section at a time and hammered on both sides until it looks more like a sword.

After, the hammering is complete the sword is annealed (heated again and very slowly cooled) do that the metal is soft edge can be applied with a file. The sword is then reheated to annealing temperature, but quenched (dunked on a bath) to rapidly cool the metal and harden it. Too much time, or to little will ruin the blade. The ability to apply the edge and tell how much quenching is enough will be governed by the Hardening skill. The player would have some sort of rough meter that would become more accurate with increased levels, but only experience would say how much is enough.

Finally the sword is tempered. It is heated again, but to a much lower temperature and quenched. Tempering hardens the metal so that the edge is durable. Too little tempering and you essentially end up with a large butter knife, it won't hold an edge. Too much and the metal will be brittle and break. I'm not sure what to call that skill, Tempering I guess.

With the metalwork done, the crossguard, handle (the handle doesn't have to be metal, I like leather or bone), and pommel are attached. Be careful, lest your sword come loose and your customer face their enemy with naught but a handle The edge is sharpened with a whetstone. This is the Finishing skill.

Each step, Drawing, Annealing, Tempering, and Finishing, would be measured against an ideal standard for the type of sword (shirt, long, one-hand, hand-and a half, etc.) and you would receive points for how close you get to the standard. More points = highest quality. Craft and absolutely perfect sword (a very difficult/nearly impossible task) and you can look forward to a legendary quality weapon. Every alloy is naturally different, so the crafter will have to learn both the vagaries of their particular forge and the qualities of the alloys they are using. Using a new alloy naturally increases the chance to fail as you have to learn how to work the metal, working the metal is more difficult, and the tolerances change. If forced away from one forge, or one the campaign ends, a smith would need to adjust to new conditions, but skilled players won't be daunted. They will adapt and overcome.

 

I don't expect the dev team to make the crafting process with that much detail (but I'd love them forever if they did), but if they come up with yet another stupid puzzle minigame or something equally unrelated to making an actual item, I will be badly disappointed by them. They can add a 'Make now button'for people that like RNG, but give me my skill. 

 

Interesting post.  It would be nice to be able to have a nicely themed activity that would make you feel like a real crafter.  That said, it seems like there are some disadvantages this this system that aren't addressed in your post.  Rather than simply post "you're wrong!", I prefer to pose these as questions to see if you have answers to them.  

 

In-game application:     Each of these activities seem to pretty much boil down to executing based on one piece of information.  Would this really be engaging?  It sounds like fairly simple mini-games for drawing, annealing, tempering, and finishing (it seems like heating was also a step as it was described).  How long would these take?  I can see it being engaging while you're still exploring how to make new items.

 

How to achieve variable results?:    The end goal of all of the activities seems to be whether you make a sword successfully or not (with varying degrees of quality).  How do you suggest one makes a sword with different qualities normally used in MMOs like weapon speed, critical %, extra strength, etc?  Is this purely through material ingredients?  (I'm not saying there isn't a skill in choosing ingredients to making your product, though it does seem you could copy anyone else's results if you have the same materials).  

 

"Wikification" :  The activities you describe all seem to be dependent on an ideal time/temperature/other that you are targeting.  Once the ideal targets for combinations are detailed in a wiki or in a tool that calculates them for you, how will these activities be anything but a grind for the player?

 

Development time:  You have four activities (though I count five) listed for crafting a sword, and this is not including smelting the metal beforehand.  You mention six activities for tanning leather and this does not include actually making gear out of it.  Given all the likely crafting activities in the game, this seems like it would require dozens of activities to be designed, coded, and tested.  Do you think this is a realistic use of resources?

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Interesting post. It would be nice to be able to have a nicely themed activity that would make you feel like a real crafter. That said, it seems like there are some disadvantages this this system that aren't addressed in your post. Rather than simply post "you're wrong!", I prefer to pose these as questions to see if you have answers to them.

 

In-game application: Each of these activities seem to pretty much boil down to executing based on one piece of information. Would this really be engaging? It sounds like fairly simple mini-games for drawing, annealing, tempering, and finishing (it seems like heating was also a step as it was described). How long would these take? I can see it being engaging while you're still exploring how to make new items.

 

How to achieve variable results?: The end goal of all of the activities seems to be whether you make a sword successfully or not (with varying degrees of quality). How do you suggest one makes a sword with different qualities normally used in MMOs like weapon speed, critical %, extra strength, etc? Is this purely through material ingredients? (I'm not saying there isn't a skill in choosing ingredients to making your product, though it does seem you could copy anyone else's results if you have the same materials).

 

"Wikification" : The activities you describe all seem to be dependent on an ideal time/temperature/other that you are targeting. Once the ideal targets for combinations are detailed in a wiki or in a tool that calculates them for you, how will these activities be anything but a grind for the player?

 

Development time: You have four activities (though I count five) listed for crafting a sword, and this is not including smelting the metal beforehand. You mention six activities for tanning leather and this does not include actually making gear out of it. Given all the likely crafting activities in the game, this seems like it would require dozens of activities to be designed, coded, and tested. Do you think this is a realistic use of resources?

I don't think my idea is THE solution, it is just an idea that, if people thought was interesting, could be fleshed out. Real metal working is really hard so I was trying to simplify things a bit. I don't know how translate a two-man, two-handed job into something the you can do with a mouse and some buttons, I was hoping people would have ideas (you can find videos online of real blacksmithing).

As for the qualities of the blade, variation within a specific kind can be handled by a scoring system of some sort. So, say, a item might score of 175-189/200 is of rare quality. I haven't seen what kind of stats weapons will have and have no details (Does anyone have a link? Please share.).

As far as 'Wikification' is concerned natural variability would exist. Archaic forges weren't standardized, naturally they looked similar, but they varied in their attributes. One would get hotter, retain heat better, or heat or cool faster than another. They didn't have temperature gauges, the smith had to acquire knowledge from the master that taught him. He had to learn to gauge his metal as he worked. Each player could get a gauge reflecting their knowledge (each player's gauge would be different) and their specific forge. It could use a color gradient or have increasingly fine graduation marks. So, I might know that the perfect annealing point for bronze is the ninth line from the top and to give the bellows a quarter of a pump every five seconds for twenty seconds, but that knowledge won't help anyone on a different forge. I don't know if there is a way to prevent people from listing out all of forges on all of the campaigns and figuring out how personal variability works, posting that information, and updating it for every campaign every month and building tools to tell you exactly when to do what.

 

I don't expect to see anything like this in the game. Maybe someone at ACE reads one of my posts and says, "You know that 'Dr Mario meets Jacksmith [that isn't a typo, Jacksmith is a Flash game] idea we talked about the other day? Let's try something else." Hopefully someone has already come up with a skill based crafting system that works across multiple professions and all of this is redundant.

Edited by ZaphodBeeblebrox

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As long as crafting is based around the principle of gather - craft, the crafting part will always be button pushing - timer - finish. I don't really see a viable way to circumvent that process, as even in the real world, I must first go out and rock hound for my precious gem stones before I can sit down at my faceting machine to cut them. Or if I get bored, go buy the rough stones at a store or online. The principle is the same though. gather - craft.

 

About the closest I can come up with, is a mini-game version of crafting. No matter how you look at it though, it will still be (in my case) choose raws - set desired attributes - click craft button. Either instant craft, or if you want a 'skill based' option, have sliders that decrease attributes over x amount of time, with the skill based part being how fast you can click the buttons to keep the sliders as close to max as possible.

 

Or the way I was originally thinking about it. (I am going to steal ZaphodBeeblebrox words Drawing, Annealing, Tempering, and Finishing ) as my examples.

 

First - you open the crafting window like any minigame, that looks something like below:

 

__________________________________________________________________

|  [skill level modification]                                                                                             |

|                                                                                                                                    |

|  Annealing  [+] [-]     [ 0 -100 slider]     [bonus]            [result]                                    |

|  Tempering [+] [-]     [ 0 -100 slider]     [bonus]            [result]                                    |

|  Drawing     [+] [-]     [ 0 -100 slider]     [bonus]            [result]                                    |

|  Finishing    [+] [-]     [ 0 -100 slider]     [bonus]            [result]                                    |

|                                                                                                                                    |

|                                                                            [enter raw 1]                                    |

|                                                                            [enter raw 2]                                    |

|        [Craft button]           [recipe]                        [enter raw 3]                                     |

|                                                                            [enter additive 1]                              |

|__________________________________________________________________|

 

 The "skill level modification" box gives you a visual representation of points based on your skill level to be allocated in the attributes boxes. (Higher skill, more points).

The bonus box is for Master Crafters with above 100 skill points.

 

The results box would give you final stats based off of (skill level modifier * points allocated + base gear stat) (or some such math) with more possible "result" boxes added.

 

add raw materials, recipe and  craft box are self explanatory.

 

this is very basic, and could be improved on (obviously) but the window would just be a place to allocate stats and hit craft for a final product. (no god forsaken wait timer).

 

if they decide to do mass production, you could add the timer somehow.

Edited by Lamdred

Lamdred Al'Ker - OTG

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If crafting is sitting at a forge station, and watching a loading bar complete, while I silently wonder why the nature of my escapist passion has brought me back towards boring tedium, and for what deed do I deserve this punishment, count me out.

 

 

If crafting is as simple a function as finding items, and using some internet data-mined guide to put together some well performing stat specialized piece of kit....well by all means drive me away from that 'content'.

 

I'll be out there having fun, in the field hunting for your materials, while you poor sad lowly loading-bar watchers are left to contemplate the nature of game economics and whether or not that gold farming/AH bot is really injustice or some cruel artful satire of your current purpose/station.

 

 

However, if its in some way not a soul sucking foray into the tedium of the skinner box, then why yes, I'll very much enjoy joining you.

 

You know, that part of games being fun, well yes, I very much enjoy having fun thank you very much.

 

I have felt the same way in the past, however, the new (and old renewed) ideas that are planned for the crafting system do have me somewhat intrigued. AC has stated that there will be full time PVPers. It would likely be beneficial to be able to make some easy and quick-to-craft items just in case you are stranded and your equipment starts to fall apart, however it will not be necessary. There are definitely people who will be full time crafters, only making the occasional foray into combat when absolutely necessary. These are the people you will likely get many of your high tier gear from. The casual or secondary crafters will be able to supply you with the gear you will likely want to equip in a situation that you are likely to die in (say raiding a keep).

 

All said and done I encourage you to try it out in the beta when things reset and everyone is just playing around. You may find you like it enough to make it a secondary goal. Worst thing that happens is you understand how the system works a little better and how much people should charge you for their equipment.

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I agree the standard WoW style crafting system is worn out, boring, and lame. There is A LOT of depth to be explored in crafting systems though, and I have high hopes that the one we'll be recieving here will have a lot more depth than usual. Still not holding my breath for the ultimate system I have envisioned (A cross between Wurm's and Mortal Online's with a robust player run shop feature) but I feel like it will be much better than WoW's.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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