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Zomnivore

Mmo Crafting The Bane Of My Existence.

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I've never understood the idea that making crafting an active thing instantly makes it tedious and lame and obviously take forever, while combat being an active thing is totally, 100% fine. Are you mega-awesome at combat, but you bump into a little cluster of goblins? OMG! Obviously it's SO tedious to fight those goblins. Oh, wait, no it's still fun to fight them, and it's a LOT easier and quicker to slay them than it is to slay something much tougher.

 

I don't see why crafting couldn't be active and not-tedious. I mean, it's not like complexity = time requirement. Combat can be REALLY, really complex, but still only last 20 seconds, tops. Either you're dead after those 20 seconds, or your foe is.

 

I think it's about time someone decides to actually treat it like they would treat a combat system. In general. No, the forge isn't fighting you. But, random/dynamic stuff can happen while you're forging. There's no need for Surgeon Simulator 2013 levels of active crafting action, but maybe you've got active-use skills, and some indicators and such, based roughly on actual crafting processes. So, for smithing a blade, maybe you can shove it back into the coals to heat it, or shove it into water to quench it, or put it on the anvil and hammer at it. Maybe to make some crazy legendary blade, you have to do that a few times, while to make a "Rusty Dagger," it takes you like 5-10 seconds. But, you could still come out of it with a better or worse rusty dagger, just like you could come out of a simple fight with more or fewer HP.

 

In fact, that's another good example. Resource usage. It'd be abstract, but maybe the better you do in the active crafting process, the fewer resources you use up. The crappier you do, the more resources you use up. Just a thought. Not necessarily a "YEAH, DO THAT!" idea. But, heck, even if that's all that was affected, it'd be better than "Click... what? Failure?! Okay, click... failure?! Click... success!". Maybe your hammer does a mildly-RNG-affected amount of "damage" to the thing you're hammering on, and having it at the right temperature "buffs" your damage. So, trying to make a very nice blade at skill rank 1 would have you having to hammer at it and reheat it several times, thus using more resources, rather than actually having to "retry" the whole thing multiple times. It would take long-er, but still not super long.

 

Anywho...

 

A) It's really silly to pitch crafting as a full-time gig if it's going to take you 10 seconds to make 50 high-quality steel swords, and

B ) it's just plain silly to say "Oh, it's all about your choices in material selection and customization for crafting!" when, for combat, you get all that AND you get to actively apply it for varying result.

 

An active crafting system involving the making of even the best sword in the game would NEVER take as long as laying siege to a castle, or clearing out a dragon cave or something. As other people have said, crafting needs to be designed for people who want to do it, not for people who would never, in their lives, make a dedicated crafter no matter how you designed it. Combat isn't designed for the people who JUST like statistics and the math behind outcomes, so why should Crafting be, if you're going to be able to dedicate most of your time to either one of them?

 

I don't think that's a silly question. And yes, I'm well aware that crafting "minigames" have been kinda ridiculous in the past. But, I'm sorry... EQ2 crafting is not the ONLY way to do active crafting. That was more of a "we don't actually want to commit to designing an active crafting system, but maybe we'll just toss in some active-use reactionary stuff, as an afterthought, so that we can technically say it was an active crafting system, then improperly collect data about it so that we can dismiss the idea of active crafting as something preposterous."

Edited by Lephys

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Crafting being instantaneous isn't always bad thing, however making crafting take too long is ALWAYS a bad thing. l  It really depends on how much crafting one has to do to increase skill.  Taking a few seconds (say 5-10) isn't too bad for each item.  The real fun comes in making the choices.

 

Do you have a multitude of raw materials you have already gathered, i.e. used your various gathering skills to get.  <- this takes a lot of time.

 

Lets say you have a bunch of raw materials, specifically ores.  Can you make different alloys?  How will those alloys affect the stats of the weapon?  Will it increase damage but decrease durability?  Will it increase durability, but decrease attack speed?  How would it affect the % chance of completing or failing the creation of said item?  Will more difficult items increase your skill more than basic ones?  Can you now salvage the item?  Can you sell effectively sell it to a player?

 

What about repairs?  Can you repair player made equipment for a price and hire out your skills in a town?  Can higher skill crafters repair items better than lower skill crafters, or better than vendors that can repair?

 

If an economy be almost purely driven by players and player made equipment, there will be a LOT of a pure crafter to do.  Yes, there will always be some grind involved.  However, there will always be a lot of people willing to craft.  It is not for everyone.

 

Mini-games have 2 purposes.  Add a RNG to a RNG, and create a time sync.  Sometimes it can be fun, other times, not so much.  Curious what the majority of the populace think of it.  Maybe take a vote on it.

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Crafting being instantaneous isn't always bad thing, however making crafting take too long is ALWAYS a bad thing. l  It really depends on how much crafting one has to do to increase skill.  Taking a few seconds (say 5-10) isn't too bad for each item.  The real fun comes in making the choices.

Sure, making it take "too long" is a bad thing, but what's too long? If you ask me, in a system in which you must craft 50 more things to skill-up in your trade, but it feels like a grind to do so, the problem is that the system is not providing you with enough enjoyment to last you the duration. No one says "Awww, man... I have to go fight 200 things and complete quests to gain my next 10 levels?!" That's just considered playing the game. Sure, you want to gain levels, but the process of gaining levels is intended to be fun. If you're crafting only to up your skill so that you can craft the better items, then you're not really interested in crafting. You're interested in acquiring items. Crafters want to craft because they enjoy it, not because "it's super lame, but at least it doesn't take too long to craft these 50 daggers in a row." No one enjoys having to craft 50 daggers to make something new. That's not crafting duration's fault, and crafting duration can serve a good purpose.

 

Also, I dare say the fun comes from making all the choices, AND can come from the actual crafting process.

 

Do you have a multitude of raw materials you have already gathered, i.e. used your various gathering skills to get.  <- this takes a lot of time.

In this game, it seems as though we'll see some very interesting variance in this. You don't necessarily need to gather your own materials (which was true in other MMOs, but now we'll have dedicated gatherer builds, even, and the economy could be a lot different, since you won't need super-specific materials to advance your skill necessarily.)

 

What about repairs?  Can you repair player made equipment for a price and hire out your skills in a town?  Can higher skill crafters repair items better than lower skill crafters, or better than vendors that can repair?

I very much hope so.

 

If an economy be almost purely driven by players and player made equipment, there will be a LOT of a pure crafter to do.  Yes, there will always be some grind involved.  However, there will always be a lot of people willing to craft.  It is not for everyone.

Very true. I don't think the goal of anything should ever be "zero grind," though, for what it's worth, because grind is relative. Maybe you happen to need money really badly, so you take whatever orders you can get. You don't WANT to make 17 different people a copper sword, particularly, but those are the orders that come in. Well, now it's a "grind," but you can definitely still enjoy other aspects of it. As you said, there will still be plenty of people who do it willingly. But crafting, in general, should not have to be "a grind." The more ACE can make it something enjoyable to do on a regular basis (especially with decay and dedicated crafters, etc.), the better.

 

Mini-games have 2 purposes.  Add a RNG to a RNG, and create a time sync.  Sometimes it can be fun, other times, not so much.  Curious what the majority of the populace think of it.  Maybe take a vote on it.

I think they have more purposes than that. Honestly, one of their purposes should be "to be fun and more interesting than a single click and a dice roll." That's the problem most crafting minigames have. They're not really enjoyable. They're just a fill-in for crafting durations. Almost like the game is saying "Yep, crafting is boring as crap, and you just have to wait for this item to craft... I'll entertain you for the duration! 8D!" So, yeah, they're used to create a time sink (or rather, to sugarcoat one), but that isn't their inherent purpose. That's just how dev teams have used them.

 

Also, they can add an element of control to RNG, so that it's not just "hope I get lucky." For example with crafting, I'd much rather have some amount of control over making the best weapon I can, than having to just craft 10 Legendite breastplates before I make that exceptional one, while Steve down the street got really lucky random dice rolls and made 3 Exceptional ones in a row. It's a little hard to make a name for yourself when Steve's just plain luckier than you are. Do people want my worse (through no fault of my own) wares, or Steve's better (even though he hasn't even spent as much time getting the materials and making that particular type of item) wares? Obviously Steve's. So he gets more sales than me, hence, more money, hence, he can buy more/better materials to then make even more consistently-great stuff even without lucky RNG rolls. That seems like not the ideal way for dedicated crafting to go.


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We're dealing with extremes here... It can be boring to watch a progress bar as it can be boring to go through the whole blacksmithing process for every single item you want to make...

 

But if you want to test the skill of the crafter during the actual craft, then it needs to be something more than "I have a bigger number in my stat thingy"

 

It can be a mini-game, it just doesn't have to be overly complicated. A simple game with a precision-based result will result in a good way to gauge the skill of a crafter (for the actual crafting part, that is)

 

Here's an example (and don't crucify me for it): Blacksmithing a sword could be done in the following way:

- You set up the forge's temperature (not by a number, but by fire size, for instance)

- Then you put in the blade

- Then you remove the blade

- Then you hammer it (Click to start and click again to stop)

That's it. And you pressed 4 buttons (higher/lower temp, put in, remove, hammer)

 

Ok, well, that sucks, how are we measuring a crafter's skill with this??

 

That's the cool part, for every diffent item, there would be a standard to be followed, so the following characteristics would have to be accomplished:

- Ammount of heat (temperature x time in forge)

- Final temperature

- Hammer timing

The smiting would then be compared to the standard for that weapon, and a high quality, average, low quality or failure item would be produced. High or low quality materials could easily factor into this equation as well.

 

This was just an example, something as trivial as outlining the shape of a sword could also have the same results

 

 

Ok, but I'll be bored of making this over and over again...

- The only way you will be bored is if you keep making high quality items. Because until then, you will always be trying out new timings to see if you can achieve your goals. And when you do, you will want to master another item, and another, etc...

 

Fine, but now I mastered it, I can high quality any time, now I'm officially bored !!

- Also easily solvable. One simple way to deal with repetition is amping up the risk/reward. You can decide to do the mini-game for more than one item, so, for instance, you risk the material for 10 iron swords, and if you get a low quality out of it, so be it...

 

That's even worse, now some begginer blacksmith is gonna risk it all and get a ton of high quality on pure luck !!

- Well, he won't get lucky forever... You can minimize this by limiting the ammount of bundle items you can do at once

 

 

I mention this because from what I've seen in the FAQ, the game seems to be interested in master crafters, who will be recognized for their work, but if that means having a higher number on a stat, then it's not all that good, is it? I'm aware that resource gathering and market management is just as important, but someone who mastered the way to create every single item and can produce high quality items in a regular basis would be worthy of recognition. And it would definitely be a consequence of hard work and dedication to the crafting system.

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If they do introduce some type of mini-game for crafting, I can see it opening a separate window where you can adjust values and get different results.  By doing this, I'm curious how this could impact creating multiple items.  I personally would not like to see a "mass production" be put into place.  Not because it makes things easy, or hard.  Only because it adds so many variables to the game, from defense strategies to "power-leveling" a character and a LOT more that are hard to find and balance metrics for.

 

If you produce a mini-game this is based on a player's reaction or ability to see angles, it will negatively impact the game.  I say this because you cannot always assume a stable connection.  What happens when you make a high level item you've farmed for and you lose connection in mid-mini game?  You could have to implement a system where you can not lose materials over it.  And if you do that, someone can not like the way the mini-game went and just use that loop-hole to never lose materials.

 

 

That's the cool part, for every diffent item, there would be a standard to be followed, so the following characteristics would have to be accomplished:

- Ammount of heat (temperature x time in forge)

- Final temperature

- Hammer timing

The smiting would then be compared to the standard for that weapon, and a high quality, average, low quality or failure item would be produced. High or low quality materials could easily factor into this equation as well.

 

I can see this being a viable alternative.  And the devs can beef it up with more or less variables as they please.

 

I am still curious what the community would want as a whole, pertaining to mini-games in crafting in general.  And then I wonder how much current player skill vs how well impact a mini-game has on final value or % an item will have.  

 

Should the mini-game have more impact on an item made?  Or should crafting skill have more impact on an item made?  

 

EDIT:: Making a small edit to say that I think almost all items should be able to be made by all crafters, even low level ones.  Just the materials used will increase the item creation difficulty and item stat values.  Perhaps having a higher skilled crafter able to increase the durability more than lower skilled ones?

Edited by Sycon

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We're dealing with extremes here... It can be boring to watch a progress bar as it can be boring to go through the whole blacksmithing process for every single item you want to make...

 

But if you want to test the skill of the crafter during the actual craft, then it needs to be something more than "I have a bigger number in my stat thingy"

 

It can be a mini-game, it just doesn't have to be overly complicated. A simple game with a precision-based result will result in a good way to gauge the skill of a crafter (for the actual crafting part, that is)

 

Here's an example (and don't crucify me for it): Blacksmithing a sword could be done in the following way:

- You set up the forge's temperature (not by a number, but by fire size, for instance)

- Then you put in the blade

- Then you remove the blade

- Then you hammer it (Click to start and click again to stop)

That's it. And you pressed 4 buttons (higher/lower temp, put in, remove, hammer)

 

Ok, well, that sucks, how are we measuring a crafter's skill with this??

 

That's the cool part, for every diffent item, there would be a standard to be followed, so the following characteristics would have to be accomplished:

- Ammount of heat (temperature x time in forge)

- Final temperature

- Hammer timing

The smiting would then be compared to the standard for that weapon, and a high quality, average, low quality or failure item would be produced. High or low quality materials could easily factor into this equation as well.

 

This was just an example, something as trivial as outlining the shape of a sword could also have the same results

 

I'd like to see them stray away from the success/failure route. I'm not saying there can't be weapons that are failures and weapons that are successes, but I want to see those as not the only options. Having a minigame for crafting would be great, but rather than what you do outright determining a success/failure, what if it instead influenced the stats? These could even have negative effects alone, or have a negative with a positive to compensate, and even a pure positive.

 

Hammered the weapon too much? It's brittler and lost some durability. Fire set really hot? Metal was more malleable and has a sharper edge (more damage). (Admittedly I know precious little about blacksmithing (I once visited a blacksmith shop when I was a teen, but that's about it -- funny story, I actually touched a piece being worked that I thought was not hot because it wasn't glowing red -- instead, it was just taken out of the water. Ouch.), but there are ways for them to work along these lines of thought).

 

I'm not saying "don't take away failures", but "don't make things outright failures". Let things be a failure as a result of the crafter's effort/planning. Like a weapon which wasn't really thought through and has weird and unviable stats, rather than a die roll somewhere through the process that deems the weapon "low-grade". I mean, I'm definitely still for critical successes and failures, but if there's a minigame it'd be awesome if instead it worked as a means for more alterations and variances rather than a test that you pass or fail.

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First of all, lag issues affect every single player in every single activity on any online games. If you lag during a fight, you can get yourself killed, and that's gonna be frustrating, but the game isn't going to be made to prevent every situation where lag can arise. So if you lag during the crafting, you'll get a low quality, salvage it and start fresh. Making sure lag isn't present in every single battle and crafting is a server issue and I don't think it should factor here.

 

I like the idea that depending on how you perform, you get a different item, like specific failures for where you have made a mistake, I'm just not sure it is simple enough for implementation. Do we really need that level of complexity?

 

The main reason I made that post is because I disagree with the point that having a crafter being recognized is pertaining to his stat levels and/or he found a unique crafting recipe. Think about it, if you play a primary crafter (which seems to be the way Crowfall wants the game to go), you will eventually find out unique recipes, right? But so will every other primary crafter out there... So you'll be recognized because you can make a Dragonskin Full-Plate. That's great, but the crafter next door makes the Sword of a Thousand Cuts, so what we really have is a different place to buy every specific item. And that's short-term too, because once more people find out how to make those items, then wikipedia will eventually get on it and there you go, all recipes are out in the open.

 

This is my perfect concept of a crafting recognition from a combat-oriented character point of view:

 

First let me just clarify that as you craft (with a system from my post above or similar), you would have a broad idea if the craft was good or not, but the item itself would not have that information, an iron sword would just be an iron sword, in the buyers eyes.

 

So I'm a Warrior named Cocteau, and I need to buy a sword. I immediately find the first blacksmith in sight, say Tom's Anvil and buy an iron sword. I equip it and go fighting. After 4 battles, the iron sword durability shows up to me at 75% (the idea is that the weapon would warn you whenever it hits 75, 50 and 25 durability). So naturally, after 16 battles it breaks, and I go back to Tom to buy a new sword. Now eventually I'll get a sword that lasts a bit more, but it generally takes 4 battles to drop 25%.

Well, I start hearing about some other blacksmith that supposedly makes good swords, so I decide to test out Brian's Forge, and his swords last an average 6 battles to drop 25%. Naturally I'll stop buying them from Tom, and start negotiating with Brian

Eventually I hear about Dennis Shop that is a bit far from my town, but supposedly the best around. So what happens is that I go all the way to Dennis to buy my swords, because his stuff is the best and lasts 10 battles before dropping to 75%.

 

That's recognition. Dennis Shop would make me travel across the world to buy his stuff because he can deliver in a regular basis. Dennis hardware is known to be good and every Warrior will respect him. That also means that, in time, Dennis can up all his prices, supply and demand, basic economy.

 

Does that mean everyone buys at Dennis now?

- Well no, as I said before, his prices would eventually go up, maybe traveling all the way to him isn't that good. Plus, if everyone buys from him, he wouldn't have the materials to make that many swords. As I undestand, resources are to be an issue, so a single crafter wouldn't possibly meet the demand of thousands of people

 

Does that mean poor Tom's out of a job?

- Nope. Every new player or people who don't want to travel to different places will still buy from him. As market rules, his profit is gonna end up being minimal, so one might like his prices better than Brian or Dennis

 

 

All in all, you can make complex systems, augmentation, new recipes and everything, but you can't measure skill over recipes and menus. It's a knowledge war that has an end, it's a matter of time before every resource is found and contested and every recipe is discovered. But once you add player skill to the mix, every single complexity regarding recipes and augmentation becomes viable. For if I detain the Adamantite mine and have managed to stock on a lot of it, I will have experience dealing with it, and even if my competitor gets his hands on some, he won't be able to practice that much and learn how it's supposed to be treated, my items will be superior, and I will detain the market, in short-term AND long-term.

Edited by Cocteau

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All in all, you can make complex systems, augmentation, new recipes and everything, but you can't measure skill over recipes and menus. It's a knowledge war that has an end, it's a matter of time before every resource is found and contested and every recipe is discovered. But once you add player skill to the mix, every single complexity regarding recipes and augmentation becomes viable. For if I detain the Adamantite mine and have managed to stock on a lot of it, I will have experience dealing with it, and even if my competitor gets his hands on some, he won't be able to practice that much and learn how it's supposed to be treated, my items will be superior, and I will detain the market, in short-term AND long-term.

 

 Not only that, but if you get a huge shipment of Adamantite in, and you simply sort through it, pick the 100 best bits of it according to your criteria, then click "Craft" and out pop 100 swords, how boring is dedicated crafting going to be? Don't get me wrong... there's no reason you should HAVE to manually control a crafting process for each individual sword you want to make. BUT, there's also no reason why the choice to do so shouldn't lend more control and better outcomes to those 100 swords (in general), as opposed to the mass production approach. Player skill should be able to matter along with character skill. That's what RPGs are all about. If it was all character skill, then you'd never step on a trap or use a bad tactic, because the character would've decided all that, and you'd simply be watching a movie. And if it was all player skill, then any measurements of your character would be pointless.

 

At some point, a player has to decide whether or not crafting makes him say "Ugh!" because he just hates the idea of crafting (and just wants the "loot"ish result of the crafting process), or whether something specific about the crafting system makes him say "Ugh!". If it's something specific, it can be adjusted. Existing games haven't really tried THAT much stuff, and jumping to fallacial conclusions such as "Oh no, if crafting a sword doesn't actually take me backwards through time, it's going to be SUPER boring!", or "Oh no, if I have to actively do anything, it's going to be tedious and lame!" isn't very prudent. Imagine if we did that with everything. "Oh, that first airplane prototype didn't work so well. OBVIOUSLY FLIGHT IS DUMB AND WILL NEVER WORK!"

 

Just... I'm not telling people to instantly love the idea of a minigame/active crafting. But, at least give it a fair shot before you decide it's horrible. And pointing out how horrible it was in Game X doesn't prove that it's horrible as a sheer concept. It only provides information on how to not do it or do it better.

Edited by Lephys

This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

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All in all, you can make complex systems, augmentation, new recipes and everything, but you can't measure skill over recipes and menus. It's a knowledge war that has an end, it's a matter of time before every resource is found and contested and every recipe is discovered. But once you add player skill to the mix, every single complexity regarding recipes and augmentation becomes viable.

Ditto. Crafting must take skill if players are to be known as 'the best'. Finding a recipe or a discipline rune does not require skill, it requires luck and anyone can find it anyway. Having access to the best resources does not require skill (at least not on the part of the crafter) and those are meant to be fought for and change owners. Crafters deserve to be able to show their own skill.

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tl;dr  If the devs want crafting as a full-time role comparable to PvP combat, then it needs to be active, engaging, skillful, and fun enough to enjoy doing it for hours.

 

For those that don't want an active "mini-game" type of crafting system, then you really don't want to be a CF crafter.  This isn't the crafting MMO for casual one button crafting.

 

Also, gathering is independent of crafting.  Crafting requires the resources gathered in order to craft, but it falls under the same principal that PvP players require weapons and armor that crafters make.  It's the circle of life. ;) 


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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So long as the crafting is not like some games where you have a small random chance to get an item that is upgradable to yet another small random chanced item with a random quality level and stat build that you want... AND you have to have extremely rare items to craft that random item that may not be what you wanted to craft in the first place, but you could always pay real money to buy the chance to get that rare item off the game's market place.


Just imagine a smiley after everything I say.  Works out best for us all.

 

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So long as the crafting is not like some games where you have a small random chance to get an item that is upgradable to yet another small random chanced item with a random quality level and stat build that you want... AND you have to have extremely rare items to craft that random item that may not be what you wanted to craft in the first place, but you could always pay real money to buy the chance to get that rare item off the game's market place.

 

lol... total ArcheAge and I totally agree.  That was one of the worst $ and RNG rackets...otherwise, it would have been a half-decent fun game.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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tl;dr  If the devs want crafting as a full-time role comparable to PvP combat, then it needs to be active, engaging, skillful, and fun enough to enjoy doing it for hours.

 

For those that don't want an active "mini-game" type of crafting system, then you really don't want to be a CF crafter.  This isn't the crafting MMO for casual one button crafting.

 

Also, gathering is independent of crafting.  Crafting requires the resources gathered in order to craft, but it falls under the same principal that PvP players require weapons and armor that crafters make.  It's the circle of life. ;)

 

I both agree and disagree with the statement, though it is a compelling point-of-view.  

 

This is my personal opinion, but you do not need an active mini-game to be a dedicated crafter.  There have been many successful games with pure crafters that did not have this.  The trick is balancing all aspects of crafting, whether the crafting is simple or complex.

 

Not everyone has the patience to be a primary crafter, and that is totally fine.  It appeals to a different type of play-style.  I fully understand a lot of people will just hate crafting, and I embrace that.  Those are the people who will drive a player driven economy the most.  

 

Crafting is only a small part of being a crafter, which is why it appeals to us. i.e.:

  • First you have to get materials.  Whether you gather them yourself or you buy them, you will need to get them.  This takes time or money, or both.
  • Deciding what to craft.  Are you just burning materials to gain skill, are you making it for a specific market or customer?
  • Selling your wares; this includes managing thralls, locations, competitive prices, and in-demand items.
  • Branding and advertising; getting your name out there and expanding your reputation and clientele.
  • Reputation can be included by who you sell to, or having the biggest variety to choose from.  Perhaps having a big plot of personnel land and decorating it all fancy for show; all the bells and whistles people will stop by to see, then perhaps shop.
  • Each step takes a large amount of time, some more than others.  Actually sitting down to craft an item is a relatively short step in being a crafter.

Being a crafter is not just about sitting on a mini-screen playing a mini-game or about 1-5 click creation, or about gathering the materials to make it.  I think being a primary crafter will depend more on how well the player-driven economy and open market systems will be placed in the game.  How you actually make an item will be secondary to that.

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lol... total ArcheAge and I totally agree. That was one of the worst $ and RNG rackets...otherwise, it would have been a half-decent fun game.

Oh god, archeage crafting was a bloody nightmare, especially for someone like me that actually hates crafting but just picked it up to support my guild..

Member of The BlackHand Order

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Well it sounds like it will be closer to Dragon Age Inquisition crafting. You receive a recipe, then it's up to you what resources you use - the stats and difficulty depend on that. I really did enjoy the FFXIV mini game (cue the lazer glares) and I wouldn't mind seeing that. Honestly I am half tempted to create a merchant for my first character... but I am still clinging to dreams of grandeur leadership roles and the like... *shrug

Edited by Astaroth

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I both agree and disagree with the statement, though it is a compelling point-of-view.  

 

This is my personal opinion, but you do not need an active mini-game to be a dedicated crafter.  There have been many successful games with pure crafters that did not have this.  The trick is balancing all aspects of crafting, whether the crafting is simple or complex.

 

Not everyone has the patience to be a primary crafter, and that is totally fine.  It appeals to a different type of play-style.  I fully understand a lot of people will just hate crafting, and I embrace that.  Those are the people who will drive a player driven economy the most.  

 

Crafting is only a small part of being a crafter, which is why it appeals to us. i.e.:

  • First you have to get materials.  Whether you gather them yourself or you buy them, you will need to get them.  This takes time or money, or both.
  • Deciding what to craft.  Are you just burning materials to gain skill, are you making it for a specific market or customer?
  • Selling your wares; this includes managing thralls, locations, competitive prices, and in-demand items.
  • Branding and advertising; getting your name out there and expanding your reputation and clientele.
  • Reputation can be included by who you sell to, or having the biggest variety to choose from.  Perhaps having a big plot of personnel land and decorating it all fancy for show; all the bells and whistles people will stop by to see, then perhaps shop.
  • Each step takes a large amount of time, some more than others.  Actually sitting down to craft an item is a relatively short step in being a crafter.

Being a crafter is not just about sitting on a mini-screen playing a mini-game or about 1-5 click creation, or about gathering the materials to make it.  I think being a primary crafter will depend more on how well the player-driven economy and open market systems will be placed in the game.  How you actually make an item will be secondary to that.

 

People don't have the patience to be a crafter because nearly all MMOs with crafting have been pretty damn boring.. a side gameplay experience supporting the main PvE/PvP gameplay... non-active and non-engaging.  That was the whole point of my post.

 

You still bundle up gathering with crafting... and also added marketing and merchandising/sales.  All of that combined is not "crafting"... that's all under the "economy" umbrella.  

 

Crafters don't need to gather resources, the resources can be purchased from a gatherer or accompany the order to craft something.

 

Crafters don't need to engage in a marketplace... they just need to craft.  

 

You're also missing the point that CF crafting isn't about making a profit as an end goal like other MMOs.  Ace is attempting to make it a role that is performed alongside PvP combat.  It's not in addition to... something you do on the side.  CWs require crafters pumping out armor and weapons for the length of the campaign.  That's a full role, which is why it requires a fun and engaging activity.

 

CF crafting... you have to think outside of other MMO crafting.  Also, let's focus on crafting, not gathering and selling... those are ancillary functions around crafting.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Agreed, Nyt! If someone feels like crafting is just something they have to do to make some money or get some items, rather than something they want to do simply to fill that role in the grand scheme of a campaign, then that person honestly shouldn't be a dedicated crafter in the first place. And many around here keep saying "Ugh, I remember having to take more than a millisecond to craft in Game X... no thanks!", but this isn't Game X. You have to think of how to design crafting within the context of Crowfall, and not how not to do it within the context of a bunch of other games.

 

There are simple truths:

 

- If you can effectively craft instantly/in mass quantities, and there's nothing to be gained from opting to take your time/do it manually, then how much friggin' downtime is the crafting community going to have? 90% of a campaign?

- If you can be a dedicated crafter, but the entirety of the properties of your crafted item are determined by the materials you use and your crafting skill (things that everyone else can and will sometimes match almost perfectly), then how do you set yourself apart?

- Going back to point 1... if there's going to be a reason to choose a time-intensive crafting option over some instant/ultra-fast one, why would you want it to require 0 mental engagement? What would be the point of combat not-being instantaneous if all you did for the duration of a fight was watch a progress bar? You wouldn't kill enemies if each was a progress bar, so why should you craft items if that's all they'll be?


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Agreed.

 

There's another point important only to Crowfall, which is crafting inside the Campaigns.

 

Take a terminator Campaign for instance, someone will have to make the weapons inside the game. Now if it's as easy as having some discipline skill high and wikipedia'ing or buying recipes, that's one thing, but if the crafter actually needed skill to do it, that puts the crafting jobs into a WAY bigger role. Because in the first system, every faction is going to have one, someone is going to be able to produce high quality weapons with high quality materials. As for the second system, not everyone will be as good as you, and there will be someone who is the BEST crafter around, and that goes beyond market management.

 

When you analyze this considering, not the embargo and the EKs, but the dynamic of a campaign, you see that your crafter can be a huge vital role in the game itself. You don't want to be a crafter, you want to be THE crafter.

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I've felt as if I'm missing something the entire time discussing this.  Mainly the big picture, because I don't think I've read a bad idea in this thread.  Most of the ideas have been outstanding.  Let me discuss my logic:

 

Let me state first, I do not think anyone can be a "pure" crafter in this game.  I do not think that was CF's intent.  I think the game will allow "primary" crafters.  The difference being a "primary" crafter's main focus is on items.  His secondary focus will be on PvP.  

 

I say this due to how the Archetypes and Runestones (Disciplines) have been laid out.  I am going to use the Forgemaster as an example... mainly because he sounds more crafter-ish than any other archetype.  The Forgemaster will start out with blackmithing recipes.  He will increase his skill and eventually promote.  Lets say the Forgemaster has maxed out his Blacksmithing skill, but still unable to make the best items reliably.  He can then find and equip the Discipline "Weaponsmith."  This will allow him to further increase his ability to create Blacksmithing weapons.  Now he can make the best of the best weapons that blacksmiths can make.  

 

So what happened to all his Forgemaster and his promotion abilities?  They are still there.  His CC/Utility?  They're still there.  Is he as strong in PvP as someone who took all combat-related disciplines?  No.  But can he still contribute in a fight?  Very much yes because all his primary archetype ability and promotion abilities are still there and fully functional.  A good way for a crafter to participate in sieges is to repair buildings or give his allies buffs.  Or vice versa and destroy buildings and give enemies debuffs.  I doubt he is going to continuously make sword after sword mid-combat.  Everyone should be equipped by then.  Perhaps they'll add in a way for crafters to continually produce siege engines, or be able to use them better than other classes.

 

What I am getting at overall, is that Crafting is going to be a secondary objective in the game as a whole.  We crafters will just focus on it and make it our primary concern.  It is not going to get the same love as PvP is going to get in terms of development.  Especially do to budgetary concerns that CF has already acknowledged.  Less items/looks = less money needed to produce.  Simple is cheaper.

 

Keeping that Crafting is secondary, you have to look at time sync.  How will a primary crafter be spending his time?  That is why I addressed selling items, merchandising, and gathering/buying materials.  If we look at the whole process of creation to getting something in return for crafted items, how much time will we spend in all of those areas?  What % of that time should be spent actually crafting?  How difficult should a crafting mini-game be?  How time consuming should a mini-game be?  What advantages should a mini-game have and why?  How much time will be spent on the crafting process as a whole vs PvP (as a primary crafter)?  How does a crafting fit into the big picture of the game as a whole?

 

I am not dismissing anyone's ideas.  I actually think they are actually very good.  A lot of them are much better than I could ever come up with. The discussion I am trying to introduce is a realistic one.  What do you think will they be able to add to their current system, theme, and concept of the game without breaking the bank?  

Edited by Sycon

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Glad to see this still churning out discussion.

 

I just feel like in the same sense that WoW formula has been done to death, and then resurrected and then killed and then stitched back together as an mmo forumla...the standard normal rote mmo crafting system is a dead horse beaten to mash.

 

Its just everywhere and its not perfect form. Its got room for serious improvement.

Edited by Zomnivore

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