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Zomnivore

Mmo Crafting The Bane Of My Existence.

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...Keeping that Crafting is secondary, you have to look at time sync.  How will a primary crafter be spending his time?  That is why I addressed selling items, merchandising, and gathering/buying materials.  If we look at the whole process of creation to getting something in return for crafted items, how much time will we spend in all of those areas?  What % of that time should be spent actually crafting?  How difficult should a crafting mini-game be?  How time consuming should a mini-game be?  What advantages should a mini-game have and why?  How much time will be spent on the crafting process as a whole vs PvP (as a primary crafter)?  How does a crafting fit into the big picture of the game as a whole?

...

 

Theoretically, you could go through an entire CW without crafting.  Likewise, you could go through an entire CW without PvP as well.  The demand for crafting within a CW will depend on a number of factors, of which we (and I imagine Ace right now) don't know all of the answers at this time:

  • How fast do items decay on use and death?  This will set the demand for crafted items within the CW.
  • How harsh will the environment become by Winter?  This too will affect demand.
  • How much RNG will there be in crafting an item?  Ace has mentioned a number of times that it's not a 1:1 craft to get a good final item.  Apparently, their vision has crafting set to making a number of imperfect items that get broken down into some of the raw resources to try again.  This will affect quality, time, and quantity.
  • How finite are the resources? This will set the possible supply, which will set the possible item quantity that can be crafted.
  • How much resources will go into non-item crafting (e.g. fortification walls)?

As it is, they're setting up the CWs in a way that will foster high demand for crafted items, which will, in-turn, require a steady supply of resources to the crafters and crafters... crafting viable final items for use.  This brings us back to ... however crafting is accomplished... it needs to be active, engaging, and require some level of skill to help reduce the chance of a defective item.  If crafting is not active and fun... regardless of the repetition (comparable to combat grinding mobs and/or players), then there will be fewer players crafting, which will drive supply drastically down.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Nyt, can you point me in the direction where they talk about RNG?  I've devoured as much info as I can, but I may have missed that one.

 

From what I've read so far, it sounded as if the RNG part will be more of a % chance to succeed in creating an item.  Such as everyone has a good chance at making an Iron Short Sword, but only higher level blacksmiths have a decent success % to create a ____ Short Sword (more difficult item).

 

That puts me in mind of the Ultima Online system.  You had a % chance to create an item, and if you succeeded, you had a additional chance to make it an "Exceptional Item."  I'm curious if they'll adopt a similar system or if the RNG you're talking about will be to increase whatever stat on the item.  Say a sword has a base of +10STR.  You make an exceptional item.  Will it RNG to anywhere between +11-15STR, or just be a flat +15STR.

 

As far as metrics go with being a primary crafter, I would personally like to see it around 80% of my time worrying about items, 20% of my time involved in PvP.  But that again, is pure speculation on my part.

 

Someone mentioned a small mini-game where you changed specific metrics, like fire level, how long to temper the metal, how many hammer strikes, etc you give it.  It is a mini-game that takes patience to learn and takes some skill.  However, eventually it will be broken down and put on a wiki somewhere.

 

What kind of skill mini-game should we be looking for?

Edited by Sycon

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From the FAQ (http://crowfall.com/#/faq/54ca4682bffce6644cb3380a):

 

 

20. What does increasing a specific crafting skill do?Every recipe requires a specific crafting skill (such as Blacksmithing for metal crafts, or Woodworking for wood crafts). Raising this skill will decrease the amount of crafting failures, and potentially increase the quality of the end piece of equipment. That said, we are trying to reduce the amount of randomness (RNG) in the system, so finding the right balance here will require some iteration.

 

 

 

22. What do the crafters do with all their rejects?

 

Since there is no vendor with an endless supply of coins to buy items, crafters can salvage any items they don’t want to get some of the resources back.

 

 

They are giving some Archetypes crafting skills as well and it appears that you won't be crafting 100% of the time, so your crafters should also expect to be placed in PvP groups as well.  They will just be "speced" more toward crafting as a primary role, but they should still be effective in PvP.  When it comes time to craft items, you'll want to use those players that are "speced" as a primary crafter.  There are multiple crafting disciplines, which it appears that they're going to do a lot of dependencies between them (an item requiring a component from multiple different disciplines), so you'll want all of the specialties covered by your crafters.

 

 

 

 

16. How do players get access to advanced crafting?

 

Our system is very freeform! Each of the Archetypes in Crowfall has an initial package of skills, and some of the Archetypes have specific crafting skills in their package. For example, the Forgemaster starting skill package has some initial blacksmithing skill and recipes. As the character progresses and engages in Campaigns they will discover Discipline Runestones such as Weaponsmith, or Armorsmith. As you pick up new Disciplines, that opens up new skills and new recipes.

 

 

Also, within the same FAQ, they make reference to most other MMOs making crafting a "secondary activity", which they're trying to make crafting in PvP a "primary activity" for those wishing to be a crafter.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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I didn't mean to make crafters to be pure either. One system doesn't prevent any other function of the game, as in, you should be able to enjoy everything the game has to offer, including a fun, interactive and compelling crafting. All the minor detail that go into it are solvable, one way or another, here:

 

Someone mentioned a small mini-game where you changed specific metrics, like fire level, how long to temper the metal, how many hammer strikes, etc you give it.  It is a mini-game that takes patience to learn and takes some skill.  However, eventually it will be broken down and put on a wiki somewhere.

 

I believe someone said the solution to this already in this topic: You make every forge is different. You can't wiki it because all the timings and amount of hammer strikes are player-customized.

 

Now I'm not even defending the system that I posted up there as the best thing in the world. I think it's a good viable system, but the concept of the engaging activity over recipe menus is the point of the topic, how it is done is up to the devs, and quite frankly, a group of developers brainstorming will probably be a better creative session than me spitballing in a forum thread, so who knows what they can come up with...

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Yeah, but I think it's going to come down to budget and value.  Although crafting will still be a "primary ROLE activity" in the way players focus their skill advancement and disciplines, Ace may not be going after having crafting being a "primary TIME activity".  This means that crafters will still be engaged in strategic PvP, gathering, caravans, etc... until such time your group requires items to be crafted.

 

This is in line with their current crafting vision and the UI concepts we've seen and doesn't require a mini-game to consume player time.  

 

Within EKs, which is sort of off-time in-between campaigns, crafters will be experimenting with recipes and possibly working to create that perfect quality armor to make a profit over.  

 

Within CWs, I can see armor and weapons being created and w/e condition they are in, they'll be used.  Higher end resources won't be consumed in CWs, but reserved for the EKs.  CWs, they just need "just enough" weapon and armor for damage and protection... disposable items. 

 

I will be fine with that ^^, if this is what Ace delivers.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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For me, with this game, it's the idea of making something with great quality. That somewhere, out there in the eternal void, an individual is cracking skulls with my club because I made sure it was the best damn whack-stick you could get.

 

Couple this with constant item detioration, from deaths/use/fatigue etc., it ensures that my services will always be needed; that, though I may not be on the front line bathing in the blood of mine enemies, I have contributed into making this game more enjoyable/engaging for everyone.

 

Addendum: Avoiding the roving gangs of mercenaries as I try to drop off my gathered resources in to the Vaults also appeals to my sneakiness. :ph34r:

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I've never understood the idea that making crafting an active thing instantly makes it tedious and lame and obviously take forever, while combat being an active thing is totally, 100% fine. 

 

I know for me my #1 favorite crafting system of all time was Wurm Online and it was precisely because it was such an involved thing. I get seriously tired of crafting systems that have active gathering and passive construction. IMO you can't even really call that a crafting system. Do the people at car manufacturing and maintenance facilities get to work and say "Ok, time to hit the mines and then smelt all our iron ore into steel, for the frame then go kill a cow and tan it's hide for the seat covers etc. and and the end of the day we'll throw it all in the queue and take a dump while the car builds / repairs itself." or "Let's go spend a ton of money on materials, throw it into the queue while we take a dump, and then go market it ourselves so we can get a bit of profit margin" (EVE) or "Lets take a huge loss on materials so that we can get our skill high enough to make luxury vehicles and THEN make a profit."

 

No. The work itself is the process. The work itself has value. That's the way it was in Wurm. I didn't need to gather the materials myself or play the market game to generate profit as crafter. The work itself was an involved and time consuming process so I could log on and use a bunch of iron from the village's supply to help create and improve weapons and tools for people and not only would they not be upset I used their mats. They would be extremely happy I put hours worth of work into their gear.

 

Still the only MMO I have played to date where I really, truly loved to craft.

Edited by andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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The work itself was an involved and time consuming process so I could log on and use a bunch of iron from the village's supply to help create and improve weapons and tools for people and not only would they not be upset I used their mats. They would be extremely happy I put hours worth of work into their gear.

 

I can agree with this sentiment, I truly can.  I'm not 100% sure it will work for CF.  I say this because of the variance of the campaign types and the metrics on how much time a player, even a primary crafter, will spend his/her time.  Will there be enough work for a primary crafter to do to log in, spend several hours crafting, then log off.  Will they be able to log in and do it all over again with very little preparation?  

 

Will CF devs be able to put enough work into the crafting system that it is involved enough that a primary crafter can just worry about crafting and not about gathering at all?  If there are primary crafters, will there be primary gatherers?  Gatherer's will have to be more combat orientated due to them risking themselves on a constant basis.  Which will also drive up prices.

 

There are so many metrics.  However the base question stays, can you JUST be a crafter and nothing else?  I doubt CF has that image.  I think they want a crafter to be able to log in and do a multitude of things, or HAVE to do a multitude of things.  Considering it is a player driven market in general, not NPC vendor driven, a lot of time will be spent finding clients or people to purchase materials from.  

 

I think we can be Primary Crafters in the game, but I doubt the crafting system will be in depth enough to all allow us to do nothing else.  That being said, I think they will come up with a system diverse enough to allow us to do crafting for a large % portion of our time.

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Is this what you refer to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ID6qkB8BwM

 

Because that is not the point here... That system just puts a little complexity into the "click craft" method

 

While what's being said is to make an active skill-based game, complex or not. We can have or have not the introduction of different tools to make every item to both systems, but that might be unecessary and it all comes down to budget. What's being discussed is the method.

 

Sycon, the argument of time consumption is valid, yet solvable. It all comes down to balancing the game, which I don't really want to discuss, because really, that is going to be the Devs call, one way or another. Let me explain:

- Both methods take a set amount of time for each item, so this is adjustable.

- You can allow mass production on both systems as well, this is also adjustable.

- Learning how to craft is different in both systems. This is not really adjustable.

 

So the only time consumption issue is regarding learning how to craft. Because inside the campaigns, you can regulate every single crafting variable to balance it into defining:

- How long should a crafter have to actively craft

- How long should it takes an item to be ready

And yes they are different topics, maybe you need to cool down your iron sword before its ready, and that takes 2 minutes that don't requires the crafter, along with many other ways to regulate this the perfect way so it's balanced.

 

As for learning how to craft, that's the interesting part. It will be fun to train your skills, and I assume mostly of that will be done in the EKs, as resources are more dispensable there. So a crafter can still fight or gather during campaigns. He also may be needed to craft non-stop during a war, because they would need a good amount of weapons due to the decay, but that would probably be necessary in both systems, it is just better to not be the guy who's watching a progress bar go down as the war rages on...

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Yeah, I'm sure there won't necessarily be the role of spending 100% of your time crafting things. Honestly, that'd still be pretty cool as an option. I know people keep saying "the game's about PvP," but "player versus player" entails a lot more than just "player slapping player with a weapon." So, supplying the slappers is just as viable as doing the slapping. Not to mention, even if you're a "pure" crafter, you're not just going to go hide in a hole when your city's under siege.

 

But, even if we can only spend, say 50% of our time crafting (if you always have to be at least "half" combatant, as far as build/specialization goes), that's still a ton of time potentially crafting.

 

That's where it keeps starting for me. I can't think of a scenario in which crafting, in general, for one whole faction, takes like 2% of the players' time, while the other 98% is fighting and gathering, etc., that doesn't end in tragedy. The longer your equipment lasts, the more insignificant the whole "Oh noes, everything decays!" becomes. Not to mention there will be survival factors, like warmth and hunger, to contend with, apparently. So, if you can just go "Guys! I just baked 3,000 pies with the click of a button! 8D!", then how significant is that role? "Spend a whole discipline rune on 3 seconds of work, or spend a whole discipline rune on 20 hours of active combat, 8D!". Wow, real significant choice there. Especially when you factor in the passive skill-gain system. So there won't even be a ton of time spent improving your skill.

 

So, time... I just don't see how it's even worth it to design a big elaborate crafting system when it's going to take you 8 seconds to use up all your resources. Now, granted, I'm exaggerating a bit. Or, rather, I'm just talking time required for doing what you already know you want to do. If you're figuring out the best alloy mixtures and basically min-maxing your crafting chances for any given crafting goals, that'll take some time. But then, once you've figured it all out, and it's all wiki'd and such, that time will be gone, and you're right back to "We just got 1,000 metals in from a gathering run. *click*... woohoo! We all just made all our favorite recipes of equipment! Okay, re-commence non-crafting gameplay! 8D!"

 

Either it'll be pointless to craft more often than that, or, if it isn't, something else will be out of whack. Your equipment will degrade so fast you'll need 20 sets just to go 500 feet away from the settlement and harvest some stuff. And/or you'll still never get to craft because resources will be so limited.

 

So, again, if crafting's going to take time to do (not infinite, ridiculous amounts of time just to make a simple item, but... time to be a "pure"/dedicated crafter), then it might as well be actively engaging, at the very least. Especially if RNG's going to play a signficant role in our successes/failures, and we're going to have to keep salvaging what we've made and re-trying. That, and I'd rather not have a system designed heavily around "You have a 60% chance to not-fail at making this sword. Much less at making a fine/exceptional version of that sword in any capacity." I'd rather have some level of active control over the chances of success, with RNG playing a lesser role on a lot of different factors. Thus, it'd be rare to get lucky with the RNG on 7 different factors (i.e. it's super durable, AND it inflicts more bleed damage, AND it's perfectly balanced for better weapon speed/lessened fatigue, AND it's strength-boosting, etc.). RNG is not really meant to be the fulcrum for so many factors at once. It would be like RNG determining whether or not you win in combat, instead of whether or not you land a single critical hit as opposed to a regular hit, etc.


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I know the devs have talked a decent bit about RNG and crafting, about how they want to minimize it as much as possible, but it is still going to play a good sized roll in the crafting process.

 

Since we will have some sort of RNG somewhere, exactly what would a crafting mini-game (skill based, not just adjustable metrics) look like?  What would you guys like to see?

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...Since we will have some sort of RNG somewhere, exactly what would a crafting mini-game (skill based, not just adjustable metrics) look like?  What would you guys like to see?

 

Rather than attacking players, give me blacksmith tools... anvil... etc... and let me attack raw metal into something.  :P

 

Honestly, I don't know what would keep me entertained for a long period of time crafting.  Would a process very similar to real blacksmithing be enough?  Not sure if that will be enough or just a temporary novelty, which would mean that Ace put a lot of time and resources creating something that won't be enjoyed.  That's a huge risk.

 

Currently, in all other MMOs, you could push a button and watch a video (out-of-game)... periodically push the button and keep watching the video.  Players found something entertaining to do out of game to fill the mundane crafting timers.

 

Although, there are quite a few casual games that my mother plays, like running a diner, baking cakes, etc..., which tells me an in-game blacksmith mini-game could work well.  I could see a lot of those players that prefer PvE picking it up and enjoying it.  Attach a score to items, which translates into quality.  Yeah, I could see Ace looking at the many fun casual games out there and apply them to crafting.  So many options.... everything from candy crush to diner dash.

 

It would certainly add value to CF for those families and friends that don't particularly enjoy PvP or are good at it... which will help build up the social and longevity of CF since it has something to offer for everyone.  But, these are just a few wild ideas tossed out there ... which I could redact after having my coffee... :P


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Rather than attacking players, give me blacksmith tools... anvil... etc... and let me attack raw metal into something.   :P

 

Honestly, I don't know what would keep me entertained for a long period of time crafting.  Would a process very similar to real blacksmithing be enough?  Not sure if that will be enough or just a temporary novelty, which would mean that Ace put a lot of time and resources creating something that won't be enjoyed.  That's a huge risk.

Yes! Haha. Honestly, though... simply put? What keeps any player entertained for a long period of time doing anything is dynamics. Why do you still have fun, in PvP combat, even when you run into the same person you already defeated 10 minutes ago? Because you know your fight isn't going to be the same exact thing this time. Why? Because it plays out differently. Maybe you run into him at a different spot, or he tries different tactics. YOU try different tactics, etc. That's the main reason FPS multiplayer is so popular. Sure, if you don't like competitive shooter gameplay, you won't play it, but that's true of anything + preferences. But, even on the same maps, with the same basic characters and loadouts, everything is still dynamic and exciting.

 

Now, I'm not saying crafting a rusty dagger is going to be the same exact thing as playing a round of Call of Duty against some people. But, it doesn't have to be "OOOOHHHHMMMMMMGGGGGGG!!!! KILL ME if I have to click another friggin' button!". The main reason crafting sucks in so many MMOs is it's JUST something to wait on. How can anything be fun if you're not doing anything? Dynamic combat versus click-button crafting? That's no contest. So, most MMOs don't even try to put them side-by-side. They're just two things you can do. You're GOING to participate in combat, and maybe you'll craft here and there for a few minutes at a time. Basically just to get spiffy items at a reduced cost. The vast majority of people who craft in existing MMOs are those who simply hate crafting less than they want better items without buying/finding them. I don't know many people who are playing WoW right now and are all "ZOMG! I LOVE MAKING SHORTSWORDS! 8D!". They just love linear progression/completionism/profit/item-acquisition, mainly. (Sure, some people actually enjoy crafting for crafting's sake, but even THEY don't get pleasure out of making 10 iron daggers in a row.)

 

And while I wouldn't just take a game like Diner Dash and wedge it into Crowfall's crafting system, I think looking that those sort of casual/mini games is good when approaching something like a crafting "minigame." Diner Dash takes running a diner and makes it something less than Restaurant Management Simulator 2K15. And that's the right idea. But, also, people play that because they want to manage a little virtual restaurant. They don't just play it 'cause it's the number-1 MUST-PLAY game of the year. So, I really don't think a crafting "minigame" needs to make everyone on the planet want to craft all day. It can succeed even with some people still avoiding it like the plague. Of course, THAT doesn't mean "it doesn't matter how many people hate it." But, the point is, if the people who already DESIRE to partake in crafting quite a bit enjoy it, I think that's enough.

 

You can hate crafting because you just don't like crafting, or you can hate crafting because it's so tedious/crappy in a given game. They're two completely different things. "Crafting," itself, doesn't become lame simply because having resources and clicking on recipe names, then watching progress bars, is lame.


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Crafting should be a pattern rhythm game and we need a dancing onion to set the beat.

 

 

Or better yet, you should be pushed into the metal in at the spiritual level and force out the impurities in a bullet hell of epic proportions.

 

Honestly I'm not asking for full on game-ification of the process, but I'd rather crafting be more interactive then loading bars.

 

Because as ridiculous as the above sounds, loading bars aren't better.

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^ What's more ridiculous is the continuous referencing of existing games' crafting "minigames" like EQ2, to backup "See? minigames suck!"

 

Nay. That's like pointing to a burnt-into-a-solid-brick cake that was baked in an oven, then concluding that ovens/baking is bad and results in black bricks of carbon.

 

EQ2's crafting (as a great example of a terrible minigame) took WAYYYYYY too long, and was still just waiting, but with like... the most rudimentary "reaction" system ever. It pretty much WAS a rhythm pattern game, but set on Super Super Super Super Super Easy. "Play 3 notes within this 2-minute span, and you have like a 5-second window during which to play each note! 8D!". Anyone who wants to tell me that THAT's mankind's exhausted efforts in active crafting implementations can go eat a rhino. u_u

 

And better still is the "it had better be as instantaneous as possible, 'cause I don't wanna put up with its lameness for 5 seconds instead of 0"! argument against it being something active you do. I mean, at what point does even instantaneous crafting no longer suffice, and MMO devs are just forced to let us find Equipment Nodes out in the wild, and mine swords out of them? Or just have pure combat-based unlocks. "Every 5,000 XP you earn with your weapon, it spontaneously turns into a new, better weapon" Woohoo!

 

The people who would actually love that -- a crafting-less system -- don't need to be determining how crafting works. I'm sorry. In Crowfall, they can just get all their items from us, and no harm is done. They don't have to sit through anything, and they still get spiffy items for doing nothing but fighting. Win-Win, if you ask me.

Edited by Lephys

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Mhmm its just a part of design that hasn't been iterated on because people are willing to settle on pulling levers and watching loading bars.

 

 

The problem though with letting people who've settled on a thing being a certain way...is that if you want it to change at all, you have to argue against something they like, and arguably maybe they have a point...

 

If I'm willing to let them suffer through it so that they can deal with it...but...thats going against some ideas I have about letting bad things go unpunished.

 

Its like if I want to eat chicken, and I know I can chase away the fox before it eats chickens, do I let it into the pen?

 

I think I don't, don't want the fox in the pen, because it introduces more potential problems...like maybe it kills too many, or maybe it breaks the pen...ya know? You aren't paying NOTHING to keep the status quo, you have to sacrifice something and you could be paying in bored players going, oh I have to deal with this terrible thing, I've always hated again? WELL I'm not dealing with any of it, it's spoiling the pot.

 

 

People face punching the crafting barrier may get ahead and that competitive part of the game means you're going to force people who aren't ok with face punching as much as these sadists...to have to do it to compete.

Edited by Zomnivore

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And while I wouldn't just take a game like Diner Dash and wedge it into Crowfall's crafting system, I think looking that those sort of casual/mini games is good when approaching something like a crafting "minigame." Diner Dash takes running a diner and makes it something less than Restaurant Management Simulator 2K15. And that's the right idea.

 

That could work. I like those burgerstand/diner games. They require skill in finding balance between tasks and good timing. RNG can be added through logical variations in tools or materials. It's a medieval world so "standardization" doesn't really exist. Tools and equipment were made by hand, so each smelter, loom, tannery, or whatever is different and the crafters themselves didn't go to a school so personal knowledge, methods, and techniques varied. So, if you're a blacksmith in the game, RNG might make the forge run hotter than usual, making over heating it and damaging the piece much more likely. Maybe you're a leatherworker and this batch of flesh stripping solution is a bit too caustic so the hides are eaten away.

 

If the crafter had a way to gauge their progress, they could use their skill to counter RNG. So in the blacksmith example, a skilled smith could more accurately gauge the heat of the metal and would know to pull out sooner. The randomness isn't necessarily reduced (maybe that could be a separate skill?), the player is able to counter the randomness. Extending the idea further, if a low skill crafter is given high end material, it isn't a matter of "the God of RNG (the All-Father's step-brother, if you were wondering. He goes by Todd amongst his friends) says you fail 99.9% of attempts", the crafter simply has no idea what they are doing. Their gauges or timers or whatever give them no useful information. They can guess how hot, how long, what reagents, etc., but they are almost certain to be an utter and complete failure because of their lack of skill level (funny thought: there could be a "Even a blind squirrel can find a nut" achievement if anyone actually succeeds. That should keep completionists busy.) The devs get their RNG to influence the flow of items, but crafters aren't held hostage, failing over and over simply because they had a bit of bad RNG luck.

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Still brainstorming so no ideas here yet,

 

But the "feel" I get when they talk about crafting and RNG puts me in mind of how Ultima Online used it.  Though, I could be totally off on that.

 

I'm working on the assumption it is similar to the UO system and building upon it.

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*Nods at Zaphod*.

 

As far as a minigame goes, there's actually a browser flash game called Jacksmith (I'm pretty sure that's what it's called). It used to be on armorgames' website. Not sure if it's still up. Anywho, it's basically a crafting game. Not saying just copy that game into Crowfall. But, it's a pretty simple example of how you can do crafting in a much more engaging way than, say, EQ2's crafting.

 

And the stuff you're touching on is the relationship between player skill and character skill, which I think is a very important aspect of RPGs that often gets a bit neglected. A perfect example of this would be a Backstab ability. Maybe if you attack from a certain arc-range behind the target, your character instantly backstabs. Versus, say, just a passive chance to critically hit. You just attack, and sometimes you crit because of your Backstab skill. That's your character's ability at work. Your character just happens to be capable of backstabbing, and does so without any specific effort on your (the player's) part. While, if you have to attack from behind, that at least requires some player skill. If it happens (backstab) every time, as long as you're attacking from behind, then that's even more player skill and very little character skill (you're not having to actually strike the weak point/aim the blade at their torso yourself, so it's still a little character skill handling the actual critical strike).

 

Well, I think the same goes for crafting. Your character's crafting skill should matter, but in most games, there's absolutely no player skill involved. Decision-making, sure (what material should I use? How many of these should I make? etc.). But no player skill actually affects the outcome of a given crafting session. Either you just have the right skill rating (character) and you succeed, and RNG is maybe involved, or you have a percentage chance to succeed and you either fail or don't. Completely out of your hands. With the introduction of player skill, your character could present the player with so much capability (maybe you have different "abilities" you can use during crafting, just like in combat, or maybe your character skill presents the player with more/less information that directly affects the application of player skill, like temperature and such as you touched on), and the player has to contribute as well. Basically, a master crafter character is capable of producing a "perfect" blade, but won't just do so automatically. So, ideally, the character's crafting skill should dictate the minimums and paramaters within which the player must actively "perform" during crafting.

 

The great thing about it, though, is that a "minigame" can thematically represent an aspect of crafting in a way that is much more enjoyable than the actual crafting process is. So, with a sword blade, if in reality, you have to hammer at it in just the right way, and maybe reheat it and repeat several times, and switch out 7 different types of hammers/tools during the process, and it takes 30 minutes to get anywhere with it, the crafting "minigame" doesn't have to do that. It can still represent an element of player-controlled active decision-making while not taking 30 minutes, and not requiring ludicrously precision-based, actual-physics-based metal-shaping with a hammer. Your character can take care of the proper ways to do some things, and you can decide things like how often to strike the metal, how long to heat it, when to thrust it into the water, etc. It can take maybe 10 seconds, maybe, and still be a significant, engaging, fun 10 seconds instead of a "I'll just wait while my character automatically does everything, like a bot" 10 seconds.

 

But, that was my whole point about the games like Diner Dash and such. In Diner Dash, you have to manage the operations of your restaurant real-time. So, it's simulating that occurring, but your controls aren't directly simulating mundane things like you physically grabbing food dishes, or carrying them without dropping them, etc. You only manage the things that affect the outcome of restaurant operations. So, you know when people need to be seated, when tables need to be cleared, when food is ready for tables, etc. Now, that's an EXTREMELY simple game, so it consists of mainly just tapping on the things you want to interact with at the right time/in the right order, so it probably wouldn't be the best way to go about crafting in Crowfall (or an MMO in general). It might need a bit more variety. But, honestly, even that would be better than a loading bar.


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