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(Crafting Discussion) Harvesting And Gathering


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Breaking the discussions down a little as suggested in this thread; http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/4809-crafting-discussion-a-breakdown-of-different-systems/ If you need to quote a section from one of the other related threads, please do but keep the quotes short and to the point!

 

Resource Spawning
 
Harvesting
 
Harvesting Tools
Edited by M0rdred
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I've already explained the system I would most like to see in my Trade in Campaigns thread here; http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/3335-trade-in-campaigns/ but I will go into more detail and try and break down the systems I would like to see in play a little more. The first line in each topic is my "perfect world" solution, that is what I would most like to see in the game. Accompanying description will drill into more detail as to why.

 

Resource Spawning

Ultimately I would like resources to spawn in logical areas, for example ores in caverns, caves and derelict mines, wood in forests (and make the trees actually disappear when cut down please!), wild wheat in meadows, etc. This should be done as zones rather than singular nodes, so as you move around that zone the type and quality of material gathered would change. Highly skilled prospectors could uncover "hotspots" which are exceptionally rich sources, but they are finite and only of use to Player gatherers.

 

I think that survival games like 7 Days to Die and Minecraft actually do this faaaaar better than any MMO. The thing I hate with a passion is node-based spawns as found in World of Warcraft or Guild Wars. The reason for this are they are artificially limiting those resources and and randomising the locations they can be found (like an Iron Ore Node in the middle of a field... seriously? How is that even logical?!)

 

Of the MMO's I liked Ultima Online's mining system the most, where different types of ore would spawn naturally in different areas. Prospecting would then become a thing. and control of rarer metal spawn zones would be a strategic consideration.

 

Harvesting

I favour a mixture of active and passive harvesting. I've dreamed of an MMO where Players could control peasants and serfs who do the most menial tasks. With these, they would have a steady trickle of material to use (which can be raided and intercepted of course). In addition to this, also allow active harvesting which is generally more efficient and more likely to find rarer materials (you are using professionals for this, of course they will be more attentive than common labour). 
 
In Crowfall I could see this being achieved through the construction of mines, farms, mills, etc in a resource zone. From this you could hire NPC workers who produce X materials per hour. More you hire, the more they get... but also the higher the risk as you've invested quite a lot in this endeavour. Workers would also have an upkeep in food, money and warmth. The more bountiful the zone the resource structure is built in, the more profitable the enterprise. Outposts can then be built (as shown in my Trade in Campaigns post) to automatically move resources from the harvester to town with Caravans, or manually through pack animals, both of which can be attacked en-route. 
 
Active Player-gatherers use their skill in this zone, and depending on its abundance, type and quality they get some stuff.
 
Please do not make this a mini-game though, the "active" part would be scouting for hotspots within a zone for richer rewards.
 
Harvesting Tools
I really cover this in "Harvesting" above, but an additional upkeep requirement for NPC workers and active gatherers would be actual tools. You need to keep mines equipped with pickaxes, mills with hatchets, farms with scythes, etc. This adds another supply / demand component to the game, and another possible logical vulnerability. 

 

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Resource Spawning - I'm a big proponent of the SWG system of dynamic spawning resources with quality variances. I won't go into detail of the system because it's well known and you can find plenty of information about i on the web. Instead of resources spawning with 10 different statistics, you give the resource a general quality level from 1-1000 that's dynamic in the campaign world.

 

Harvesting -  One of the issues that was brought up in another thread was that in Crowfall, there's limited inventory space and resources don't stack infinitely such as in SWG. Also, the different types of resources would take up too much bag space. The solution that I put forward was to put a feature in the game where you could combine and refine materials into higher grade versions through smelting or other similar mechanics. I don't think Crowfall should have singular statistics on resources (such as conductivity for metal or heat resistance) but, each metal and alloy combination should have a general quality level based on a 1000 point scale which can be increased through the previously mentioned mechanic at the cost of material efficiency. If you mine 1000 copper and it's average level of quality is 300, you should be able to refine it into a stack of 100 copper at 500~ quality level with bonuses from your disciplines . This would give variance to crafted items, solve the issue of bag space and allow players to further refine their materials by stockpiling them over time, eventually getting near the quality cap at the cost of time and resources. Also, I believe that versions of harvesters should exist in the game on a very small scale. Maybe limited to 1 per character and only if you meet certain crafting prerequisites. Staying with the theme of Crowfall, you could achieve this through the beast of burden system. Maybe using a horse to pull trees out of the ground or mules to power a manual drill. The items and animals would be susceptible to attack and would allow people with high crafting skills to have a slight advantage at collection.

 

Harvesting Tools - Other than the idea above that involved animal powered harvesters, I also think that harvesting tools should be able to carry significant increases to harvesting speed or abilities. A master blacksmith should be able to create a pick-axe that can increase quality levels of ore via critical chance RNG or amount of minerals mined per durability point or maybe a possibility to upgrade to a higher tier of ore automatically. 

 
Edited by M0rdred
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Resource Spawning

  • Metals/Stone
    • The very basic of these could be found prospecting SWG style in the wide open world from EK to Dreggs
    • Mid level materials spawn in small pools in the open world they have a finite pool of resources to deplete that replenishes over time
      • Replenishment should not be 0 to full after x time
      • Replenishment should be 1 unit every f(u)=x time between next unit
    • High level materials are located in mines
      • Mines create a POI crucial for focusing PvP and increasing the risk to the player harvesting
      • Mines need to be recovered or repaired before they can be exploited for their resources reducing the importance of being the first to find it
  • Gems
    • I'm going to lump Gems in with Metals/Stone as far as resource spawning is concerned
    • Depending on their importance or the quantity used in crafting they could require unique mines
  • Plant Materials
    • Resources spawn by tier in rings of expanding radius from predicable settling areas (castle ruins for an example)
    • Once the rings of two different settling areas overlap we see an upgrade in resource
      • imagine a Venn diagram with a favorable settlement POI at the center
      • The areas that overlap generate better resource
  • Animal Products
    • I think we stick to the standard kill mob and skin/harvest
    • Harder to kill mobs give better materials
    • At higher tiers create lairs so where they spawn becomes a POI
    • Make it so the longer something is alive the more it can be harvested for
  • Lumber
    • hybrid between plant products and mines (lumber mills or groves)
    • Venn diagram for low to mid tiers
    • POI for upper tier

Harvesting

  • Click the node till its empty
  • limit visibility - move, or look to far to the left or right and you'll break the task
  • From harvesting you should receive an unrefined component with an expected quality variance
    • Example- you harvest copper pyrite which can be refined to copper which is forged into metal bars
    • Copper pyrite stacks easier in the field and is a general indication of quality (Copperite is better)
    • Refining is when you determine the actual quality of each copper

 

Harvesting Tools

  • Tool quality should impact
    • The level of resource that can be gathered
    • The variance in refining
    • The speed of gathering
    • The quality of resource gathered
    • The quantity of resource gathered
    • The amount of noise produced while gathering
    • The degree of freedom the player has while completing the task (can you look behind you while swinging a pick axe)
  • Unique tools should be required for Ore, Stone, Gem, plant, leather, and lumber
  • Unique tools should be required for refining raw material (Sickle to harvest raw cotton, spinning wheel to make the cotton thread)
  •  
Edited by M0rdred
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Resource spawning- Since the campaigns will be randomly generated ,resources will most likely never (re)spawn at the same location.

Which is a good thing I think.Perhaps it is less likely to see a bot flying from point x to y to gather the nods that always respawn at exact locations.
The API should be limited enough so addons can't track the exact locations either.(otherwise it might not really matter whether there is an exact location or not;they could still cheat)
 
Harvesting
For harvesting it might be interesting to think about man(girl)power <-> the scale at which can be harvested.(from faction scale mining > a resource piece on monster drops)
And the discovery of resources(if you think about it,is it really logical if everyone knows where all the resources are from start?)
Maybe only scouts can discover resource points.(faction bound,so if a scout of the order faction discovers resources it doesn't mean the chaos  faction can see it)
But then there are large scale resource points like mines.If a % of a large resource pool is gathered,
it will be automatically convert to a mine of that faction(but this is the point where enemy factions also get to know the location.)
 
The stack issue and resources taking up too much bag space;I think players should have the choice to send it over to some kind of faction depot.
If you choose to do this,you'll gain reputation with that faction.
In the continuing war efforts,it might be in your best interests to send those resources to the faction.
Then,depending on the win/lose condition,you'll be able to select a reward from the faction;perhaps you'd like some gold for all the resources you have sended,maybe you'd like a faction skin outfit,or a warmachine for your next battle like a catapult,or the faction you donated to might reward you better harvest tools,...which brings me to 
 
Harvesting tools
a faction  might  influence what is available to you.Just as the crafters within..
Perhaps there could be larger scale harvesting tools which are not available to you as solo player.
 

 

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Resource Spawning

 

This was great in SWG and EVE.  There was a multitude of resource types in a great many far away places and locating the resources took time and player skills(and things such as surveying and scanning).

 

Harvesting

 

Thumping in Firefall is the greatest thing every created with regards to harvesting resources.  I don't remember too many games where people were that excited to get a group together and go harvest some rare gas.

 

Harvesting Tools

 

Things like extractors in SWG (passive) and (once again) thumping (active) in Firefall come to mind.  

 

 

I may do these one by one since I've got so much to say.  Snerk.

 

Resource Spawning

Likes: I like that there are different versions of resource types ie. blerther copper, mipper copper etc.

 

Twinges: I wish that the resource locations were not so static.  It looks like they're spawned with the planet and so having resources spawn, get harvested out, and then show up somewhere else doesn't seem like an option.  I also understand the PvP value of having static locations so while I have a twinge I can live with it.

 

HopeWishHey: I think a lot of people are used to one particular type of resource spawn because that's all that games have had in the last decade.  The "find a node and click on it and it gives you x pieces of a resource" type of spawn.  SWG did not have this at all and it made harvesting MUCH more fun.  There were no clonenodes of resources awkwardly stuck around the map - rather you walked around and found the resources by surveying the land around you for them.  SWG had harvestors, machines, that you had to place on the land and that actually mined mats for you.    You had to provide them with power and clear out the accumulated mats or they stopped working.   They suffered from decay. They were crafted items.  The process was Survey for a resource, Find the resource, Place mining equipment, Maintain mining equipment, Collect resources.   Perhaps in CF there can be broken equipment at the resource spawn points that has to be fixed and then players can use that to do the mining.

Every time I'm in a game now and click a node of ore and see my character suddenly start swinging an axe out of nowhere with a clink thud sound a part of me cringes.  I need a shirt that says "Every time you click a node a whomp rat dies" or some such thing.

I wish upon a star that CF would have something, anything other than click on a node and harvest x pieces of a resource.

 

 

Edited by M0rdred
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From what I have seen from a previous thread, the likely ways of harvesting will be to build a mine or a mill to harvest the corresponding resources. Then also, the quality can depend on location, type of mine, etc. Since none of the thoughts have been set in stone, I do think that players actually being able to harvest areas would be an entertaining thing, however time consuming it may be. However, I would like to point out why players actually gathering resources would be a risky thing. Firstly, Every world is dying that we are fighting for, so the campaigns only last so long, about a full seasonal rotation of a year from what I have gathered. Now, if players are spending their time collecting resources, then this means that people who would otherwise be expanding territory or fighting and clearing other players or npcs, will now have to spend time harvesting the resources to send back to our barren home worlds. In other words, beyond even the characters of fighters, they may as well make harvester characters to specifically harvest, otherwise it would be fighter based characters wasting what they were made for to harvest resources on the side, or dedicatedly.

 

Personally, I would like to see crafters, harvesters, traders, fighters, etc have their own classes, but in a time based formula, personal harvesting would be far too slow and inefficient compared to the resources gathering structures simply sending out x amount of workers to accomplish the gathering. However, if there was a mixture of both, it would be interesting.

 

Also, I believe that the gathered materials are transferred to a central node of sorts, or a warehouse by means of a caravan.

 

Then again, I don't know if any of this will prove true later.

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Viris colratha dath sethicara tesh dasovallian. Soluris veh za jass.

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