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phatcat09

The Tyranny of Numbers: Removing Hit Points

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I like what I'm reading of your ideas, but you can't expect people to take you seriously if you respond to someone's less than favorable response with an even worse response.

Personally I'm fine with responding to stupid with smartass, and if anyone thinks my idea suddenly has less merit because of a conversation unrelated to the Opening Post that's fine also.

Edited by phatcat09

#CrowFallBata


~Sweet Sensations~


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thank you for the last explainer, that did help a lot. I'm all for a system that rewards player growth, not character growth. I'm still not sure exactly how your system works, but I'm not the one that has to code it.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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thank you for the last explainer, that did help a lot. I'm all for a system that rewards player growth, not character growth. I'm still not sure exactly how your system works, but I'm not the one that has to code it.

@-@ do I need to draw you a picture...


#CrowFallBata


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So many... Big brain words. Okay So your basically saying scrap HP and create a system that overlays "HP" (A players life) and says, if you want to kill this guy you have to check...hmmm okay yea see that's convoluted. Now if -instead- you say. Okay all that stuff, but instead of it being an "Inner" system, that system is just built based on the actions of you opponent. Now THAT'S cool. I'm swinging my sword (f*** stats yo but in your example magical things) oh your swing, same type of swing looks like it was a clash (sword on sword no damage, sexy looking ;) ) Same example guy is attacking with some glorious damage and maybe the weapon skill has a stun or some sort of effect. (magic stat stuff) oh it would be a clash buut all this stuff is behind the throw. sooo you take the damage (inner shell hp ness of gooiness nougatey center) aaand the effect occurs. I'd be for that. I may not like stat items and gear, buuut hp is one of those things that you HAVE to have in a visceral way. if ou fight a guy you know your winning because he looks beat up. I wouldn't put that much load on game design that they have to look bruised (Though, though if you want to get rid of HP, that's how I'd do it) you need that visual cue.

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Okay So your basically saying scrap HP and create a system that overlays "HP" (A players life) and says, if you want to kill this guy you have to check...hmmm okay yea see that's convoluted. Now if -instead- you say. Okay all that stuff, but instead of it being an "Inner" system, that system is just built based on the actions of you opponent. Now THAT'S cool. I'm swinging my sword (f*** stats yo but in your example magical things) oh your swing, same type of swing looks like it was a clash (sword on sword no damage, sexy looking ;) ) Same example guy is attacking with some glorious damage and maybe the weapon skill has a stun or some sort of effect. (magic stat stuff) oh it would be a clash buut all this stuff is behind the throw. sooo you take the damage (inner shell hp ness of gooiness nougatey center) aaand the effect occurs. I'd be for that. I may not like stat items and gear, buuut hp is one of those things that you HAVE to have in a visceral way. if ou fight a guy you know your winning because he looks beat up. I wouldn't put that much load on game design that they have to look bruised (Though, though if you want to get rid of HP, that's how I'd do it) you need that visual cue.

Okay then sure that works.


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After reading this thread fully, I am inclined to prefer a hpless system. I like this shell system of which you speak.

It is my personal belief a paradigmic shift in design to this Shell System would fundamentally alter class design. So unfortunately an idea like this won't be adopted by crowfall. My only hope is that somehow, someway, someone in the ranks will consider the idea of challenging the Player Controller's aptitude.


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It didn't work for Halo, I don't think it will work for MMOs.

Did you read anything I wrote or are you flippantly responding to a title.


#CrowFallBata


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I designed something pretty similar for a homebrew PnP RPG I ran.  It does cause an interesting shift in terms of how players think about approaching combat and damage, and I would love to see something similar in an online RPG.  


The Sundered Guard-"Nature's Sword, the People's Shield"-Ranger's Brotherhood of Shadowbane, Mourning Server

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As i read it you didn't remove HP at all... not even in the slightest... 

You split HP in to 3 pools of numbers? or is it 2? 

Basicly i read it as max 5000 HP of absorbtion, with a regeneration of 5000 pr. sec.

Behind that is another Absorbtion alot lower but with different ressists, so maybe that is 100 points only.

and at last the true HP, the points that decide if your dead or not and it's no ressist but has max dmg it can take pr. dmg input. and it has a value of 3?

 

So Basicly player A has to do an output of 5000 DPS and then use swap his style of attacks to something that hits harder on the second barrier, and do another 100 DPS. wich in the end is just 5100 Total DPS, and if he succeed he takes away 1HP and Player B who was attacked instantly regenerate both barriers? or atleast partially?

 

i know this is VERY simplified and like the idea, because second to all that, you want to program factors as

positioning,

Weapon type vs Armor type,

Increased dmg if you dodge an attack while slashing out some yourself,

and so on..

 

But i'm guessing your want to do it as a Multiplier buffer? so Player A still only has a weapon that is on it its own doing 1000dmg after armor mitigation, but if he succeeds in dodges, flanking, debuffing, stunning and so on he builds up a Damage multiplier, that can also decrease again if he is no longer flanking, gets stunned and "off balance" or slowed by poison and so on.

 

Is this the basic idea of what your going for ? Cause then i understood it just fine :)

 

on another note... there is no reason to be so demeaning towards people who don't understand what you write... you can easily explain it if you just refer to regular expressions instead of giving it a new name... like outer and inner shell.. and tenacity...

 

Outer Shell = Big absorb shield with 1 set of ressists

Inner shell = Small absorb shield with another set of ressists

Tenacity = HP

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As i read it you didn't remove HP at all... not even in the slightest...

You split HP in to 3 pools of numbers? or is it 2?

Basicly i read it as max 5000 HP of absorbtion, with a regeneration of 5000 pr. sec.

Behind that is another Absorbtion alot lower but with different ressists, so maybe that is 100 points only.

and at last the true HP, the points that decide if your dead or not and it's no ressist but has max dmg it can take pr. dmg input. and it has a value of 3?

 

So Basicly player A has to do an output of 5000 DPS and then use swap his style of attacks to something that hits harder on the second barrier, and do another 100 DPS. wich in the end is just 5100 Total DPS, and if he succeed he takes away 1HP and Player B who was attacked instantly regenerate both barriers? or atleast partially?

 

i know this is VERY simplified and like the idea, because second to all that, you want to program factors as

positioning,

Weapon type vs Armor type,

Increased dmg if you dodge an attack while slashing out some yourself,

and so on..

 

But i'm guessing your want to do it as a Multiplier buffer? so Player A still only has a weapon that is on it its own doing 1000dmg after armor mitigation, but if he succeeds in dodges, flanking, debuffing, stunning and so on he builds up a Damage multiplier, that can also decrease again if he is no longer flanking, gets stunned and "off balance" or slowed by poison and so on.

 

Is this the basic idea of what your going for ? Cause then i understood it just fine :)

 

on another note... there is no reason to be so demeaning towards people who don't understand what you write... you can easily explain it if you just refer to regular expressions instead of giving it a new name... like outer and inner shell.. and tenacity...

 

Outer Shell = Big absorb shield with 1 set of ressists

Inner shell = Small absorb shield with another set of ressists

Tenacity = HP

This is a completely wrong understanding.


#CrowFallBata


~Sweet Sensations~


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Yeah, cookz, what you're describing is basically what EVE did with their "shields > armor > hull" system.  But that is not what phatcat09 is describing at all.

 

I'm kinda sad that such a cool, and heretofore unique sort of combat system will more than likely not be featured in Crowfall.  From how they released a working character creation screenshot from a working client, I'm beginning to think they have more completed on the game than I first assumed.

 

For what it's worth though, I hope the devs steal all of your ideas lol.  No offense.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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I get where phatcat09 is coming from.  Why do what we've all been forced to do forever?

This can be seen in the escalation of Rock-Paper-Scissors into RPSLS, and the other overly complex variants.  I'm not saying that phatcat's idea is overly complex, but rather a honing of the mechanics.

 

I like the fact that the proposal helps with the spell spammers.  If I burn the same spot on my body repeatedly, I'm going to end up with damaged nerves that result in not feeling the burn.  While it's still damaging my body, it's not causing the mental agony which improves my overall fortitude, thus I can now overcome the source of the fire.  Now, we do need that desensitization to wear off, otherwise we'll have newbies immolating themselves before PvP is available.  But, it would be fun to be in the newbie area selling 9-volt batteries so everyone can resist lightning.

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If you're going to get rid of HP, why not just make it realistic? You stab a guy in the arm, his arm doesn't work but he won't die right away. You stab him in the heart, he's dead. No HP there.

 

You hit a guy with an exploding fireball, he's dead.

 

You electrocute a guy with a lightning bolt, he's probably dazed and now you can stab him in the heart, dead.

 

I know it's way off from what you're describing, but if we really want to get away from an HP system, why replace it with something equally convoluted?


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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So... an armor system?

 

I see this working for 1v1, but not anything greater.  In that case spamming attacks will be an effective means to "break the shell".  And with so many combinations, it's impossible to guess your enemy's next move, so you might as well just whatever and hope the RPS works in your favor.

 

 

 

 

I know it's way off from what you're describing, but if we really want to get away from an HP system, why replace it with something equally convoluted?

 

This.

 

(But you're still talking about HP in your reply, just HP per body part)

Edited by truth

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I guess, sure, 1 hp per part if you want to say it that way.

 

And PhatCat specifically stated that spamming won't usually work. The game would reward creative combinations and switching tactics to take down the outer shell. If you simply spam, odds are the other guy will take your shell out first.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I get where phatcat09 is coming from.  Why do what we've all been forced to do forever?

This can be seen in the escalation of Rock-Paper-Scissors into RPSLS, and the other overly complex variants.  I'm not saying that phatcat's idea is overly complex, but rather a honing of the mechanics.

 

I like the fact that the proposal helps with the spell spammers.  If I burn the same spot on my body repeatedly, I'm going to end up with damaged nerves that result in not feeling the burn.  While it's still damaging my body, it's not causing the mental agony which improves my overall fortitude, thus I can now overcome the source of the fire.  Now, we do need that desensitization to wear off, otherwise we'll have newbies immolating themselves before PvP is available.  But, it would be fun to be in the newbie area selling 9-volt batteries so everyone can resist lightning.

Everything can be condensed into rock paper scissors if you get abstract enough though. I can condense chess into rock paper scissors. In fact Rock-Paper-Scissors is more accurately the most simple form of conflict. It shouldn't be underestimated.

 

Complexity is what we use to make things interesting. Over-complexity can cause disinterest...and lead to trouble in keeping track of variables that leads to issue of balance (a la the Tyranny of Numbers).

 

So in design balance must be struck between simplict and complexity. It's better to err towards simplicity than complexity.

 

And this is is actually the basis of my approach.

 

That is why the Shell system I've designed can be understood in two equal parts. Players (hopefully) will be able to easily understand why they are being successful, in order to create Fair gameplay. 

 

(For anyone who's been following this thread in detail please notice how these ideas are re-occurring, if you haven't please read my previous post.)

 

I'm hopefully designing something that is simple in it's nature and easy to understand, but is on a sliding scale of complexity (in terms of actions needed to be taken) as the player challenges stronger and weaker opponents.

 

With regards to the "burning the same spot repeatedly" while I wouldn't use that example specifically the train of thought is correct. It's a way of emulating other parts of altercations that can't quite be represented through the traditional Raw Integer Exchange style combat we are all familiar with.

 

Instead of saying a person has 100 fire resistance, and then saying that's why they're able to resist fire well. The game will make a logical check of (okay this player deals with fire users a lot (or a little), they are a fire user, they are of a fire based race, their birth sign is under that of fire...etc) in order to determine the efficacy of an incoming attack. The exact calculation is relative though...which is where algorithmic complexity comes in....

 

This challenges players to build their character not just by numbers, but by behaviors as well.

Edited by phatcat09

#CrowFallBata


~Sweet Sensations~


puppy punch Count: 28

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