Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Finite Resources Of Dying Worlds (Resource Spawning)


Recommended Posts

So here's really what we have thus far on how the worlds generate resources...

 

2. Where do the resources come from?

Resources can be harvested from the environment, and sometimes found on certain monsters.  Materials come from particular types of POIs (Points of Interest) called resource factories: Quarries, Lumber Mills, and Mines. 

 

4. Are there differences between Resource Factories of the same type?

Yes!  First, the proximity and location to other Points of Interest makes a huge difference (obviously).  Second, we’ve also put balance knobs in place to increase (or decrease) the quality, quantity and type of material that each Factory produces.  One mine could produce high quality iron, while another produces low quality copper -- but at a much higher rate.
 
Quarries located in a remote area will typically produce much more materials (and at a greater frequency.)  This was designed so that, as the risk of transporting those materials goes up, so does the potential reward.

 

 

A couple comments on other systems/ideas...

 

Several folks have posted their dislike of resource nodes seemingly randomly placed in the world, that just respawn on some kind of timer. Basically once you find them, you know where they're going to be, every time... and you can endlessly gather as much as needed. There's also the SWG-like system where things spawn in different locations and you constantly have to hunt to find the type and quality of resource you want. Better, but again, the supply just never ends.

 

So, procedural generation fixes "fixed node locations" that are mapped once and now everyone knows where every spot is, forever.

 

Dying worlds means your time to gather is limited in each campaign, but if things still respawn within the campaign then there is only artificial scarcity created by tuning the respawn/regeneration timer of the nodes.

 

Adding random placement when regeneration happens means you're just having to hunt a little harder, but again, the supply is only limited by the timing. Also, PoIs are not really going to be able to be "random" past the initial world creation - you can't randomly spawn a new PoI in a different location if there's now a watch tower in that spot! I'm sure they could find a way around this, but IMO the better answer is this...

 


 

Ok, so we have procedurally-generated worlds that will place trees, ore veins, etc as well as bigger harvesting sites (PoIs) in the world. Great!

 

With a static (eternal) world in MMO-land, you have to have two things:

  1. A limited number of resource nodes, to create competition and "artificial" scarcity to avoid a total glut of supply
  2. A method by which to renew the supply of resources so that as the population consumes what is available, (relative) scarcity does not turn into total absence of availability.

These are absolutely not requirements in a system where the entire premise of the campaign is that the players are there to collect everything they can, of what is there, before the whole world is obliterated.

 

Instead, I think the initial resource availability of a campaign world should be tuned with the following elements in mind:

  • How many consumers of resources will be present? (number of characters active)
  • What is the expected rate of consumption? (multiplier effect based on the population). This is due to all uses - simple consumption, equipment turnover, decay loss, etc.
  • How long do the resources need to last? (length of the campaign)
  • How much above and beyond the amount needed to survive and win should be available to the players? (assuming optimal consumption conditions - this can be scaled to factor in the probability of non-optimal usage and additional expected losses)

Basically, almost all resources other than food ...assuming food is a needed thing - IMO the "Hunger resistance" stat everyone seems to assume is associated with food I believe is related to the actual 'Hunger', but that's another topic... all resources other than food should be finite and non-renewable. If you harvest a forest for lumber, you aren't going to see more trees grow in the length of time you're in the campaign. It's just too short a period. Ores, minerals, gems, whatever else - unless they're somehow being magically produced by the worlds, those should be gathered once (to depletion of the "node") and done.

 

Mines, Quarries, etc - these can be single points of harvesting to represent gathering from a particularly rich concentration of whatever resource, or even from the "nearby area". But again, they should eventually deplete and become "mined out".

 

Beyond the risk/reward balance already in place with something like the PoI-gathering system, finite resources creates a sense of urgency and priority in locating the best areas from which to gather what you (your guild or faction) needs to survive and compete. It creates more competition for the available supply. It creates more potential for all sides of group social interaction that normally goes along with the need for limited or rare "stuff" - that means cooperation, trade, theft, conflict. All of that is enhanced when everyone knows that stuff is going to run out, and soon. Either you can convince me to give you some of my valuable stuff (that you don't have) for some of your valuable stuff (that I don't have) ... or you can try to take it!

 

 

Generate enough "stuff" in the world to let the players survive, build, fight, and win... and a little extra on top to allow some to come home, assuming they played smart enough. If people are too sloppy, or too wasteful/careless in how they use what is available, or don't spend enough time or effort in hunting down and gathering as much as they can ... then they walk out with less than they otherwise would (and possibly nothing!)

 

And again, it just makes sense with the lore setting!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 58
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

So here's really what we have thus far on how the worlds generate resources...       A couple comments on other systems/ideas...   Several folks have posted their dislike of resource nodes see

I have to be honest, my first reaction to your post was "here we go - another punishing set of parameters because the OP thinks that anyone that doesn't fit their definition of a proper player should

Make the automated mining machine craftable and you have my support.  This would require a resource investment into the machine, which also has HP and is destroyable.

I believe they're going for finite resources in the campaigns.  This would bring it in-line with strategy games (e.g. Starcraft).  It may also be possible that your more rare materials are exposed as the seasons progress, with the rarest being exposed in winter.  It wouldn't surprise me if quantities are also adjusted between the campaign "rings" with the most being available in the Dregs and fewer the further out you go from center ring.

 

They may also have starting resources adjusted by campaign "ring".  For example, God's Reach starting with copper, meanwhile, Dregs start with either Tin or Silver.  So, the quality of crafting is immediately advanced within the Dregs, while God's Reach may not see Silver until Fall or Winter.

 

They have a lot of flexibility to make this all work, which I'm sure we'll see adjustments made throughout the Alphas.

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to be honest, my first reaction to your post was "here we go - another punishing set of parameters because the OP thinks that anyone that doesn't fit their definition of a proper player should be penalized."  I'm saying this because of your words as follows:

 

"Generate enough "stuff" in the world to let the players survive, build, fight, and win... and a little extra on top to allow some to come home, assuming they played smart enough. If people are too sloppy, or too wasteful/careless in how they use what is available, or don't spend enough time or effort in hunting down and gathering as much as they can ... then they walk out with less than they otherwise would (and possibly nothing!)"

 

I am not sure who you've been crafting with but I've not met a crafter in over a decade of gameplay that is sloppy, wasteful, careless and/or lazy.  You're building a scenario that assumes that harvesters and crafters will be slugs and the game has to protect against these ne'er do wells with built in punishments for their slacking.

 

There is plenty of challenge already built into the game tbh.

 

Now that that's out of my system - I don't think you understand SWG harvesting completely.  In SWG the supply did end - spawns were limited to 2-3 days usually and the resources you wanted were scattered around multiple planets. What you were looking for was not always spawning. Finding the right resource at a high enough quality was usually challenging.

 

CF does not seem to be going with an SWG style resource location system but rather with fixed POI's.  Finding the POI's then either fighting to win them or fighting to hold them seems like a pretty good challenge in and of itself. I can't see even a remote amount of fun in finding the POI, fighting for it, then having the resource amount available to mine dry up and disappear.   The only way I see that working is if they have a LOT of resource POI's and that will lower the find/win/hold part of the challenge considerably. There is item decay and gear loss through looting built into the PvP system.  We will need a lot of resources to make the endless need for gear and I don't see removing access to resources via a limited amount working within the system they've announced.

pixS8Wt.jpg


The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...I can't see even a remote amount of fun in finding the POI, fighting for it, then having the resource amount available to mine dry up and disappear.   The only way I see that working is if they have a LOT of resource POI's and that will lower the find/win/hold part of the challenge considerably. There is item decay and gear loss through looting built into the PvP system.  We will need a lot of resources to make the endless need for gear and I don't see removing access to resources via a limited amount working within the system they've announced.

 

Ah, but this is exactly how finite resources work in strategy games.  Once you run out of resources.... you have to use whatever you have and roll with it.  This is the strategy part of CF.  The POIs having finite (although there will be quite a bit in there... unlike 3 hits and you're done) forces guilds and crafters to use it sparingly and not just shove it all into embargo.  

 

Obviously,players that are constantly dying and rapidly consuming armor and weapons won't survive long in a guild.  They need to play better and smarter.  CF isn't a game for Leeroy Jenkins types of players either.  The higher PvP campaigns may also have Tk enabled as well, which will require smarter players too.  

 

CF will separate the strong from weak players... the spammers from the skilled... the strategic leaders from the noob leaders.  It will be hardcore. Even if you have a casual gaming schedule, when you're playing in CF, it'll be hardcore.

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea of limited resources;

  • I think it has a direct impact on zergs
    • Once you recruit past what the area around your stronghold can handle you start running out of food, weapons, and armor
    • Zergs are then required to move to find more materials or cull the heard
  • I think we would see some pretty cool strategy play
    • Take a tactical team to the enemy mine and raze it either cutting of their supply for some time or reducing the total quantity available in the mine
    • Don't destroy the mine because you are taking the stronghold and will need the mine for resources

That being said I'm not a fan of trying to balance the math you are talking about.

  • You could put an upper limit on the number of players that can be on a server at any give time.  But what about non-concurrent player base?
  • Figuring the average consumption rate of equipment punishes the lower skill player because they will lose more then the average player and have nothing to come back into the fight with.
    • It's enough of a punishment to lose your equipment
    • I want them to come back and try again
    • I want them to get better and not quit the game because they have no equipment to play
  • If I don't join the campaign as soon as it opens, how long can I expect the area to have starting resources, one day, week, month?
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to be honest, my first reaction to your post was "here we go - another punishing set of parameters because the OP thinks that anyone that doesn't fit their definition of a proper player should be penalized."  I'm saying this because of your words as follows:

 

"Generate enough "stuff" in the world to let the players survive, build, fight, and win... and a little extra on top to allow some to come home, assuming they played smart enough. If people are too sloppy, or too wasteful/careless in how they use what is available, or don't spend enough time or effort in hunting down and gathering as much as they can ... then they walk out with less than they otherwise would (and possibly nothing!)"

 

I am not sure who you've been crafting with but I've not met a crafter in over a decade of gameplay that is sloppy, wasteful, careless and/or lazy.  You're building a scenario that assumes that harvesters and crafters will be slugs and the game has to protect against these ne'er do wells with built in punishments for their slacking.

 

Not at all, and it's not about individual players so much as player organizations. It's a part of the macro-scale economic and strategic system, not a micro one.

 

Crafters themselves I absolutely agree are not wasteful (generally speaking). But a player organization (guild, whatever) has to manage limited resources for the group as a whole in an intelligent fashion. It's not about harvesters/crafters being wimpy/useless/slackers, it's about planning, strategy, logistics, and resource management on a macro level for your group.

 

 

Now that that's out of my system - I don't think you understand SWG harvesting completely.  In SWG the supply did end - spawns were limited to 2-3 days usually and the resources you wanted were scattered around multiple planets. What you were looking for was not always spawning. Finding the right resource at a high enough quality was usually challenging.

 

CF does not seem to be going with an SWG style resource location system but rather with fixed POI's.  Finding the POI's then either fighting to win them or fighting to hold them seems like a pretty good challenge in and of itself. I can't see even a remote amount of fun in finding the POI, fighting for it, then having the resource amount available to mine dry up and disappear.   The only way I see that working is if they have a LOT of resource POI's and that will lower the find/win/hold part of the challenge considerably. There is item decay and gear loss through looting built into the PvP system.  We will need a lot of resources to make the endless need for gear and I don't see removing access to resources via a limited amount working within the system they've announced.

 

Probably not completely as I didn't play SWG, but your description doesn't really change my argument against it!  Not to mention we both agree that CF doesn't seem to be using that model anyway.

 

Let me pull some random numbers out of the air to give an example of what I mean by "limited" ... 

 

Say there's a vein of iron ore. You dig around and find it, and harvest it - the vein gives you maybe 100 units of ore. Great!

 

Now say there's an iron mine PoI. Your guild locates it, sets up shop, and strip-mines that sucker dry over the course of a week, or a month (or however long it takes) - the mine gives you maybe 100,000 units of ore. That's enough to make some damn good fortifications, multiple sets of equipment for your entire army, and still toss some in embargo to take back to the EK later.

 

 

I'm imagining the worlds as BIG - continent size! A single decent mine in a hill could supply plenty of one resource for the entire campaign...assuming it isn't stolen, lost, or squandered. And there could be LOTS of PoIs. I don't think we're looking at a dozen in the whole campaign world. If that's the case, the equation changes quite a bit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

And there could be LOTS of PoIs. I don't think we're looking at a dozen in the whole campaign world. If that's the case, the equation changes quite a bit.

 

I disagree with this part... in that there won't be LOTs of resource POIs.  The devs want them to be rare and have PvP battles for them.  If there were many, then PvP battles will rarely happen and players will be so wide spread, not to mention it wouldn't work with a caravan as efficiently ether.  There needs to be POIs for players to fight for, and having those be a limited # of resource POIs, Embargo circles, and respawn locations it sets up the strategic board nicely for some intense PvP battles in focused areas.

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree with this part... in that there won't be LOTs of resource POIs.  The devs want them to be rare and have PvP battles for them.  If there were many, then PvP battles will rarely happen and players will be so wide spread, not to mention it wouldn't work with a caravan as efficiently ether.  There needs to be POIs for players to fight for, and having those be a limited # of resource POIs, Embargo circles, and respawn locations it sets up the strategic board nicely for some intense PvP battles in focused areas.

 

Limited is relative to the expected player population of the world, no?

If there's 2000 players online, 10 PoIs is not realistic as minor control points. Keep in mind that PoIs include production for multiple types, quantities, and qualities of resources. You can't stuff all that into only a handful of locations. There will be a lot of them, and they will be valuable and fought over, but I don't see them being siege-level battles. These are little battles (by comparison).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Limited is relative to the expected player population of the world, no?

If there's 2000 players online, 10 PoIs is not realistic as minor control points. Keep in mind that PoIs include production for multiple types, quantities, and qualities of resources. You can't stuff all that into only a handful of locations. There will be a lot of them, and they will be valuable and fought over, but I don't see them being siege-level battles. These are little battles (by comparison).

 

If you look at some of the earlier concept videos, they hint to how guilds will be looking for optimal fortification placements, which will be in locations where the shortest distance between a resource mine, respawn point, and embargo summoning circle reside.  They will fortify and defend that entire area.  So, from the beginning, they already had in their design that mine POIs will be limited and part of strategic planning.  This is their RTS part of CF.

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look at some of the earlier concept videos, they hint to how guilds will be looking for optimal fortification placements, which will be in locations where the shortest distance between a resource mine, respawn point, and embargo summoning circle reside.  They will fortify and defend that entire area.  So, from the beginning, they already had in their design that mine POIs will be limited and part of strategic planning.  This is their RTS part of CF.

 

Yep, I  know exactly the ones to which you're referring! Although I think it was a resurrection point, not a embargo circle...no matter! Assuming they have stuck with that concept, I think the point is that you build a defensible fort in one place and maybe erect a little barricade wall and tower at the PoI (which you want nearby, but is not actually within the fort) and that allows you 'control' of the PoI as long as you can defend it.

 

I'm not disagreeing that they will be limited and strategic, I'm just disagreeing on what limited means in context of numbers and varieties of resources as well as the population which is competing for those PoIs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...I'm not disagreeing that they will be limited and strategic, I'm just disagreeing on what limited means in context of numbers and varieties of resources as well as the population which is competing for those PoIs.

 

I understand.  I also trust that Ace will stick with the limited focal POIs, which hold most of the resources, as it supports a more RTS PvP based strategy.  Although, I could see many smaller "veins", with far fewer resources, scattered about for the smaller guilds/groups, while also still finite.

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Would be nice to have a mining system implemented to try and find ores to a certain point.... makes things easier and safer for crafters at times..... But this does not remove the danger of encountering enemies. So having an underground system would not be a bad idea, and make use of the large area of terrain that most do not look towards.... Although it would need to be limited to a certain distance vertically otherwise it would just be digging holes and have enemies spawn only to run 10 feet to their death from fall damage... Having a finite amount of resources, but a large amount that is varied in type is probably the most ideal and what the Devs will shoot for.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why couldn't different worlds have different quantities of resources.  Some worlds might be great for wood but bad for stone.  Some could be great for stone but bad for wood, etc.

etDenA9.png
Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why couldn't different worlds have different quantities of resources.  Some worlds might be great for wood but bad for stone.  Some could be great for stone but bad for wood, etc.

 

I think we will see worlds like that.  It would make sense too since every world isn't the same.

yTzeAMV.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with limited resources is what if they are TOO limited. What happens if all the wood is used? Personally I'd like to see a hybrid system. Limited resources in the worlds, but infinite, SLOWER production in the EK.

I make things.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with limited resources is what if they are TOO limited. What happens if all the wood is used? Personally I'd like to see a hybrid system. Limited resources in the worlds, but infinite, SLOWER production in the EK.

Then you do without wood.  same goes for food, iron and any other resource. 

etDenA9.png
Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

Link to post
Share on other sites

, but infinite, SLOWER production in the EK.

 

Never this.

 

Putting all resources in the EK (even at a slower rate) greatly devalues the Campaign Worlds.  This game is not about sitting safe in your EK. Risk equals Reward.  If you're not willing to go out and risk your own hide to get what you need/want, then what's the point.

 

Players will need equipment inside the Campaign Worlds, and the only way they can get them is from Crafters who are themselves in the Campaign Worlds.

 

The resources you need for your EK come from the Campaign Worlds.  Any other set up destroys the very point of the game. Both the game system and the story mythos rely on players going out to the worlds to bring back their treasures home to the EK.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Although Ace has hinted/mentioned that there may/will be some resources in EKs, it'll be very minor and only the low end stuff.  As for the campaigns, once a particular resource is gone... it's gone.  I imagine that the barter price of resources will greatly increase as the campaign heads into Fall and Winter.

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Although Ace has hinted/mentioned that there may/will be some resources in EKs, it'll be very minor and only the low end stuff. As for the campaigns, once a particular resource is gone... it's gone. I imagine that the barter price of resources will greatly increase as the campaign heads into Fall and Winter.

Nyt is that your preference or did you see that confirmed somehow?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Limited resources act as a throttle for creating things.

 

We already have a number of throttles in place on the campaign worlds and even more getting resources back to the EK. 

 

Limiting the resources means running out of resources while the campaigns are still running.  It means choosing whether to use a resource to gear up your guild or whether to bring it back to the EK.

Running out of resources on the campaign worlds means that the Uncle Bob syndrome is introduced as larger guilds grab and hoard all resources and then the smaller guilds die not from lack of skill but from lack of gear.   The campaigns will be won and lost in the first week of their existence.

 

Limiting resource turns the game into guild only play.  Right now it's guild advised play - it's easier to succeed in the game if you're guilded - the larger the guild the better.  But there is still the option for folks to form small tactical teams or play solo and just be hecka smart and skillful - and still succeed.  If you limit resources you're forcing folks into guild structures just to be able to have access to resources.

 

I don't like the idea of limited resources.  It creates a bottleneck on the campaigns that isn't there now and it also makes building on the EK even more difficult.  It might sound fun to make things challenging. but we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot from a crafting POV.

 

pixS8Wt.jpg


The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...