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Finite Resources Of Dying Worlds (Resource Spawning)


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Limited resources act as a throttle for creating things.

 

We already have a number of throttles in place on the campaign worlds and even more getting resources back to the EK. 

 

Limiting the resources means running out of resources while the campaigns are still running.  It means choosing whether to use a resource to gear up your guild or whether to bring it back to the EK.

Yes, yes, and yes. Especially the third one here - that's kind of the point (after a certain point in the campaign). If you either can't secure resources for yourself or you lose or squander them somehow, then yeah, you won't have a lot left to embargo. It forces people to to plan, to strategize, to play intelligently instead of always being willing to kamikaze because they don't fear loss.

 

 

Running out of resources on the campaign worlds means that the Uncle Bob syndrome is introduced as larger guilds grab and hoard all resources and then the smaller guilds die not from lack of skill but from lack of gear.   The campaigns will be won and lost in the first week of their existence.

No. If "all resources" can be gathered in the first week of the campaign, then the balance is wrong and the world should be generated with more resources. If your argument is that large guilds will control all the PoIs for the duration of the campaign... that has nothing to do with whether or not the resources are limited. The first week definitely matters, just like your first moves in RISK matter, but it doesn't guarantee a win (unless the opponents severely overextend and play stupidly...but then they deserve to lose!)

 

Limiting resource turns the game into guild only play.  Right now it's guild advised play - it's easier to succeed in the game if you're guilded - the larger the guild the better.  But there is still the option for folks to form small tactical teams or play solo and just be hecka smart and skillful - and still succeed.  If you limit resources you're forcing folks into guild structures just to be able to have access to resources.

No. There's nothing stopping small or solo people from finding and hoarding their own small cache of resources. There's also nothing stopping them from raiding the PoIs as they are harvested or hitting a caravan, or ... etc etc. Yes, organizations will have an easier time, that's the benefit to them and the whole reason people group up in the first place - because it works.

 

I don't like the idea of limited resources.  It creates a bottleneck on the campaigns that isn't there now and it also makes building on the EK even more difficult.  It might sound fun to make things challenging. but we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot from a crafting POV.

Fair enough, but I disagree with the conclusion that it equates to shooting anyone in the foot.

 

I had an additional thought that I'll elaborate on in another thread - it's related to this but inspired by the "how often are we going to die" and the "is everyone kill on sight" discussions.

Edited by Trynthlas
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So here's really what we have thus far on how the worlds generate resources...       A couple comments on other systems/ideas...   Several folks have posted their dislike of resource nodes see

I have to be honest, my first reaction to your post was "here we go - another punishing set of parameters because the OP thinks that anyone that doesn't fit their definition of a proper player should

Make the automated mining machine craftable and you have my support.  This would require a resource investment into the machine, which also has HP and is destroyable.

I just don't get why you think that players are so idiotic that they need to be forced to strategize. That without limiting resources they're going to squander them.  It seems to me that your whole rational for limiting resources is based on an opinion you have of players being stupid and wasteful and once again I have to say that I have not encountered any crafter that squander resources or use their mats stupidly. 

 

It's like me saying we should take away KOS because too many PvP'ers are just going to all focus on running around killing people endlessly.  They're going to camp rez spots and kill people over and over even though that's stupid and cruel so we have to eliminate KOS. I've met maybe 1 or 2 people in gaming that do that and I've gamed for a decade.  It's a stereotype and I'd be goofy to insist that the game change its structure because I'm worried that people may be behaving irresponsibly.

 

If you take away these players you're so intent on punishing for their foolish actions then there's no need for the limited resources.  You're asking for additional difficulty to be added to the game in the name of preventing imaginary idiot players from made up actions.  

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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I just don't get why you think that players are so idiotic that they need to be forced to strategize. That without limiting resources they're going to squander them.  It seems to me that your whole rational for limiting resources is based on an opinion you have of players being stupid and wasteful and once again I have to say that I have not encountered any crafter that squander resources or use their mats stupidly. 

 

It's like me saying we should take away KOS because too many PvP'ers are just going to all focus on running around killing people endlessly.  They're going to camp rez spots and kill people over and over even though that's stupid and cruel so we have to eliminate KOS. I've met maybe 1 or 2 people in gaming that do that and I've gamed for a decade.  It's a stereotype and I'd be goofy to insist that the game change its structure because I'm worried that people may be behaving irresponsibly.

 

If you take away these players you're so intent on punishing for their foolish actions then there's no need for the limited resources.  You're asking for additional difficulty to be added to the game in the name of preventing imaginary idiot players from made up actions.  

 

I'm not sure how you draw those conclusions about what I think based on what I've posted.

 

We've been pitched a strategic warfare-based MMO. The deeper the choices involved in the strategy a person or group opts to pursue, the better. It has nothing to do with players being "idiotic". It has to do with increasing the need for actual planning and forethought in how you attack a campaign, it has to do with adding consequence to the choices of how you use limited supplies (just like in any RTS). With unlimited respawn of resources, it doesn't matter if people are stupid or wasteful - they can always go find/claim/harvest more stuff to infinity.

 

There's no thought, no strategy, no plan needed. There's greatly reduced incentive to trade - why should I trade when I can just go get it myself? There's the problem of supply inflation, where people accumulate so much stuff that there is simply no risk to losing your town, or your gear, or whatever - you can always rebuild it because you have that much stashed away, because there is no limit. In Shadowbane, there were resource mines that produced an hourly amount of a selected resource for the guild that controlled them - even the slowest producing/rarest (and ostensibly most valuable) ones eventually became uninteresting to compete over, because the economy was saturated. People would go just to find a fight because they were bored, not because of any interest in the mine itself. I don't think that is a good thing.

 

My points have nothing to do with me caring whether people are acting responsibly with their resources. My points have to do with whether they should care, and why they should care, and how that adds layers of depth and strategy to the awesomeness of the game.

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Those coming from standard MMORPGs that don't play RTS games much, will want respawning resources... because it's the fair thing to do.  In fact, I bet some would love to see the GuildWars 2 method of nodes, where everyone can gather from the same node.

 

Those coming from RTS games (and MOBA games for the PvP aspect) that don't usually play MMORPGs, will want finite resources, because it's all about the strategy.

 

Those that play both MMORPGs and RTS, will understand the value of both...and will most likely see Crowfall from a more understanding perspective and have an experienced advantage over the first 2 above.

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Infinite resources, perhaps with finite "hotspots". The challenge should be in finding and securing those areas, and then getting those supplies back home. Resource supply and demand will occur naturally, both through procedurally generated randomness and market manipulation by the Players. Want prices to rise? Block your rivals from securing those materials. Want them to fall? Open up access to a resource to all.

 

This isn't to say that everything should be infinite, but the vast majority should be.

Edited by M0rdred
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...This isn't to say that everything should be infinite, but the vast majority should be.

 

This is where I strongly disagree.

 

I would rather see everyone fighting armor-less by Winter if they either embargoed most of the resources or squandered it all during the early seasons.

Edited by Nyt

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Best way to achieve that is to reduce the rate that resources are gathered, rather than an artificial limit. What I am trying to say is that the amount of resources in circulation should be down to Player action. 

Edited by M0rdred
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Best way to achieve that is to reduce the rate that resources are gathered, rather than an artificial limit. What I am trying to say is that the amount of resources in circulation should be down to Player action. 

 

I have no problem with this, as long as it's not tuned too low.  There needs to be a balance... I doubt anyone gathering wants to just sit there hitting a single action button every few seconds only to mine enough ore to make 1 chest armor every 30 minutes.  Meanwhile, the request for new armor is 1 piece every 5-10 minutes.

 

This type of balance will most likely be discovered during alpha and beta though.

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Agreed, that's why I am in favour of passive and active gathering. Passively, gatherers can build / upgrade the Points of Interest which automatically get resources over time, or venture into them, themselves and gather (slightly more efficiently) themselves... or both.

 

This would mean that instead of being pure gatherers clicking a button every 10 seconds, those Players can also get invested in the logistical and management game.

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The idea of finite resources in a game such as this would make sense, as the world is dying. As the game campaign progresses on, more PoI spots begin to dry up and supply less, causing fighting over the remaining nodes to increase, as well as raiding of caravans and runners. If the game even allows, it could cause full out PvP encounters in the form of one group raiding anothers storehouses and resource collections to try and supply for themselves, though this feels unlikely to happen.

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Viris colratha dath sethicara tesh dasovallian. Soluris veh za jass.

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The developers seem to want to give the players the tools to make the game the players want. Perhaps this includes spawn points and respawning as well. I find it interesting that Druids and Forgemasters are considered support roles. Could one of their powers either passive or active be the respawning of materials?
 

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The idea of finite resources in a game such as this would make sense, as the world is dying. As the game campaign progresses on, more PoI spots begin to dry up and supply less, causing fighting over the remaining nodes to increase, as well as raiding of caravans and runners. If the game even allows, it could cause full out PvP encounters in the form of one group raiding anothers storehouses and resource collections to try and supply for themselves, though this feels unlikely to happen.

 

Uhm, yeah?

 

I kinda thought this was the whole point of the Campaign Worlds. Fighting over resource sources, fighting over Summoning Circles (Embargo Vault deposit points), and explicitly having to decide whether to deposit supplies in your Embargo or keep them to improve your odds of winning and thus getting more back from your Embargo Vault.

 

If supplies aren't scarce then there's little reason to fight.

 

That said, there definitely has to be enough resources to fund fighting and still have some for Embargo but that's a balancing equation for ACE. Respawning resources is waaaaay to easy to break that balance.

 

CopperStall

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That said, there definitely has to be enough resources to fund fighting and still have some for Embargo but that's a balancing equation for ACE. Respawning resources is waaaaay to easy to break that balance.

 

I disagree, because you still have to actually collect those resources. I think decreasing resource collection rates in later seasons would be a better solution. That way you still have the potential to gather stuff, but are vulnerable to enemy attack for longer. 

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I really hope that they will rid these POI's and just let the players build these factories as they see fit.

For example, have ways to tell the quality of ore a ground may hold and let players build and defend these finite quarries.

Same could be applied to the other resources.

 

Although I guess this might be difficult considering the dying worlds idea. It would mean that the world were to fill up a lot slower. It would basically slow down progress a bit.

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

A solid quote, I'd say.

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The objectives behind the finite resource method could also be easily achieved by throttling the rate at which the resources are gathered. Slow it down and they become more valuable, people are forced to be much more cautious, speed it up and you'll see fighting intensify and more risky behavior from all factions.

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The objectives behind the finite resource method could also be easily achieved by throttling the rate at which the resources are gathered. Slow it down and they become more valuable, people are forced to be much more cautious, speed it up and you'll see fighting intensify and more risky behavior from all factions.

 

Actually I think you'll see the opposite. Slow it down and resources are more valuable encouraging more risky behaviour to secure depleted supplies. In times of plenty there will be less conflict, because everyone has what they need.

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I think the difference in approach here is more about a difference in focus.

 

When I think of resources I'm thinking of the crafting system itself, how challenging that is going to be and how difficult it's going to be to get resources to start with (fight fight fight to get yer resources yeah!), how difficult it's going to be to keep them.  I think of how ridiculous the decisions are going to be - put resources into the campaign export bank or use them to gear the guild? I'm thinking about the crafting itself and how the resources impact that process from start to finish.

 

It sounds like the original focus in this thread is on making sure that resources are "valued" and a strategic advantage for those that use them well.  The main point is to make a system where resources are available only to those that earn them above and beyond the normal process of harvesting them.  There is a definite sense of "let's build a system that is based on assuming that some people will waste their resources and not consider them to have value so we'll hit them over the head with a 2x4 to make sure they lose for being such goofballs."  I am loathe to support any system that is built on the lowest common (and to me still somewhat imaginary) denominator in a game.

 

 I truly don't see how focusing on limiting the resources makes crafting better.  Crafting is already way past the point of comfortable - we're crafting in a PvP environment - and I want to immerse myself into crafting and creating, not spending the bulk of my time chasing down limited resources.

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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