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TullyAckland

03/20/15 - Eternal Kingdoms!

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I've never disagreed that crafting should be important.

 

I disagree that crafting should be able to happen without risk...just like I think you shouldn't be able to PvP to get gear without having to craft.

 

I hear you.  And yes, it's probably an agree to disagree thing.

 

So of course I keep typing. Laughing at myself here.

 

I take the balance thing a little further though.  I think to make the second sentence above actually logically sound you'd have to say (paraphrasing)  "crafting should not happen without risk in a PvP sense and PvP should not happen without lack of risk in a Crafting sense.

 

Which, while logically sound, makes no sense.

 

We're talking about PvP which has this risk of loss from other players attached to it and crafting which has no risk of loss from other players attached to it.

 

PvP on the campaign worlds keeps its risk of loss from other players.  Crafting on a campaign world has the PvP risk of loss from other players added to it.

 

Crafting on the EK has no risk of loss from other players.  PvP on the EK still keeps its risk of loss from other players but it's consensual rather than mandatory.

 

I see that as pretty fair.  And I get that it's not fair in your POV.  But it sure is fun talking about it.


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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You're stuck in the campaigns.  You visit the EK between campaigns. At least that is my understanding of it.

 

You can however have one alt on the EK and another in a campaign. 

 

 

I think the default is as you describe but that they are considering options to 'visit' the EKs while on Campaign. They are specifically trying to avoid messing with the import/export rules so the strongest candidate seems to be that a pseudo-shade of your Campaign PC shows up in the EKs where they can participate in events etc but no gear transfers either way.

Still veeeeery hypothetical at this point, though

CopperStall

 

 

Actually I don't think this is the case. I seem to remember one of the dev's saying you could travel to your EK, but that you'd appear there with the last gear you had on while at the EK - ie you cannot bring stuff back and forth with you while on campaign. This is so that you could still administer your EK while on month-long outings.

 

I tried to find the source of that, but failed, sorry :(

 

Campaign & Kingdom FAQ:

41. How do I manage my Kingdom when I am in a Campaign?

This design is still somewhat in flux, because we haven’t nailed down exactly how much we want to “lock” characters to Campaigns.

Our current thinking is to allow players to travel between their Campaigns and their Kingdoms freely, even during Campaigns – but to not allow ANY equipment to transfer between them, other than at the beginning and end of the Campaign (in accordance with that Campaign’s Import and Export rules).

Passive training will NOT be location based; meaning your character(s) will continue to advance at the same rate, regardless of whether they are currently playing in a Campaign or in a Kingdom.

 

I only know this because I've answered this same question before.

 

They went into a bit more speculative detail in one of the interviews, but I don't have time to track that down.


soli deo gloria

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I hear you.  And yes, it's probably an agree to disagree thing.

 

So of course I keep typing. Laughing at myself here.

 

I take the balance thing a little further though.  I think to make the second sentence above actually logically sound you'd have to say (paraphrasing)  "crafting should not happen without risk in a PvP sense and PvP should not happen without lack of risk in a Crafting sense.

 

Which, while logically sound, makes no sense.

 

We're talking about PvP which has this risk of loss from other players attached to it and crafting which has no risk of loss from other players attached to it.

 

PvP on the campaign worlds keeps its risk of loss from other players.  Crafting on a campaign world has the PvP risk of loss from other players added to it.

 

Crafting on the EK has no risk of loss from other players.  PvP on the EK still keeps its risk of loss from other players but it's consensual rather than mandatory.

 

I see that as pretty fair.  And I get that it's not fair in your POV.  But it sure is fun talking about it.

 

Crafting in the EKs gives a substantial and tangible benefit to the campaigns without risk, while winning in a campaign requires significant risk. Consensual PvP in the EKs requires no risk, pvp in the campaigns includes a lot of risk. One of these things is not like the other. 

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I can insist whatever I want, whether or not people listen to me is another story!

Did I just find a member of my tribe in a rabid PvP'er?!

Oh sweet gods of Snackcakes I've wandered astray!

 

I get that for some the lack of auto PvP in the EK is a major disappointment.  My hope is that one of you stat happy ironcore monsters will build a campaign win site that keeps track of who wins what campaign on which planet.  Over time the natural born killers that prevail will rise to the top like cream in a milk filled bucket from a tabasco cow. The second placers will rage against the dying of the light and the number one guild will be given ingame mandatory /kneels when not in PvP from all others participating in the Site of Winning Winners of Windom.

 

I'm actually serious - you don't need the game to keep track of who sucks and who soars.  You want clout, you want recognition, build the structure yourself.  There is too much in CF to toss it away over not getting a permanent reminder of how good your guild is.


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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Campaign & Kingdom FAQ:

41. How do I manage my Kingdom when I am in a Campaign?

This design is still somewhat in flux, because we haven’t nailed down exactly how much we want to “lock” characters to Campaigns.

Our current thinking is to allow players to travel between their Campaigns and their Kingdoms freely, even during Campaigns – but to not allow ANY equipment to transfer between them, other than at the beginning and end of the Campaign (in accordance with that Campaign’s Import and Export rules).

Passive training will NOT be location based; meaning your character(s) will continue to advance at the same rate, regardless of whether they are currently playing in a Campaign or in a Kingdom.

 

I only know this because I've answered this same question before.

 

They went into a bit more speculative detail in one of the interviews, but I don't have time to track that down.

 

THANK YOU!

 

I just spent about 30 minutes posting through their posts trying to find that.

 

Phew, so I'm not going mad (yet).

Edited by M0rdred

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Crafting in the EKs gives a substantial and tangible benefit to the campaigns without risk, while winning in a campaign requires significant risk. Consensual PvP in the EKs requires no risk, pvp in the campaigns includes a lot of risk. One of these things is not like the other. 

The catch though is Import rules. Risk of crafting on EK would be not being able to use that gear beyond as a costume to walk around with in your EK. Besides gear is gear when you die and PvP its prone to get looted by other players and decay over time so it doesn't matter where you made the gear.

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The catch though is Import rules. Risk of crafting on EK would be not being able to use that gear beyond as a costume to walk around with in your EK. Besides gear is gear when you die and PvP its prone to get looted by other players and decay over time so it doesn't matter where you made the gear.

 

Definitely but things are quickly becoming pretty dependent on this one import ruleset catch.

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Crafting in the EKs gives a substantial and tangible benefit to the campaigns without risk, while winning in a campaign requires significant risk. Consensual PvP in the EKs requires no risk, pvp in the campaigns includes a lot of risk. One of these things is not like the other. 

Not everything has to have risk.  Risk is not automatically a good thing for all players. And risk is not the benchmark of the quality of the game.

 

There's risk and there's effort.  There's strategy and there's planning/forethought.  One of the reasons folks in the gaming world sometimes don't take PvP'ers seriously enough is because of the incessant insistence that nothing other than risking it all has any value in a game.

Risk equals Reward is a core component of CF.  There are other aspects to the game as well but Risk V. Reward is a big one.    Reward in Crowfall translates to Resources.  Reward is not permanent keeps that change hands as battles are won and lost - resources are the rewards. 

 

And I get that folks want to make the end result of those resources something that is put at risk again and again so that the game becomes one huge nonstop battle with no way to ever pause.  Nowhere safe and nothing is yours unless you can defend it. And for those folks I say just stay on the campaigns. 

 

You can't complain that there's no permanent win on the campaigns and that they get wiped because in the "nonstop war/nothing is yours for long/eternal PvP" world that you're after nothing is yours permanently anyway. 


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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Definitely but things are quickly becoming pretty dependent on this one import ruleset catch.

 

That and significant item decay. I would seriously hope that imported gear is gone within the first month of a campaign. This would give guilds with a good EK economy an early advantage, but woe betide them if they rely too heavily on this crutch.

 

Compound this with their being a bigger target for alliances (due to threat) or simply because that rule set happens to be full loot...

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Half a mile square is the same things as a quarter of a square mile. .25 mi2 is 160 acres. According to this line, each cell is about 18 acres.

 

 

"Square acre" is not a unit of measurement. Acres already measure area; a "square acre" is simply an acre of area which happens to be shaped like a square.

 

A square shaped region with an area of a quarter acre is about 104 feet on a side. 312 feet is definitely not a half mile.

 

A square shaped region with an area of two acres is 295 feet on a side. 885 feet stil isn't anything like a half mile.

 

Someone is doing math very badly and I have no idea if a single cell is supposed to be 200ish feet across  or 900ish feet across.

 

That. Can someone please go over that introduction and fix the mix-up of "cells" and "parcels" and the length/areas? That would really help to understand the concept better.

 

Additionally:

 

1. if a Monarch has the same rights (plus x) to a tenant, can he take items/houses or whatever from a tenants home?

2. How is "property" defined/designated anyway?

3. If I'm a tenant and I bring in material which provides 100% of a structure or new parcel - does that mean the parcel is mine or is it owned by the Monarch?

4. Is a building the tenant build but can't place still owned by him or owned by the Monarch or Nobles?

5. How are taxes paid, automatic or manually? How far in advance can I pay? What happens if they are automatic and the Monarch raises the taxes suddenly tremendously emptying my coffers - but I'm not able for a while to log in? I come back to be penniless and lost my lot location on top?

 

Edit: The initial 3x3 EK everyone has as private property ... can other people come and visit there? How many concurrent?

Edited by wincel

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Crafting in the EKs gives a substantial and tangible benefit to the campaigns without risk, while winning in a campaign requires significant risk. Consensual PvP in the EKs requires no risk, pvp in the campaigns includes a lot of risk. One of these things is not like the other. 

 

Correction, EK crafting does have risk: you invest resources into your crafting structures; you invest resources into crafting the goods; you get those resources from Campaign worlds only.

 

Every gets: empty 3x3 kingdom.

Heavy contributing KS get: +X cells; +Y buildings

 

and zero resources to do anything with them.

 

Do you want to craft anything at all?

You either Campaign or negotiate with someone who did to get your seed resources in exchange for crafting for them.

 

Do you want to set up a business stall and have something to sell?

More resources from a campaign world directly or through yet more working for others.

 

Hope people find your stall to buy from you.

Spending time and/or in-game resources for advertising or to enter a fealty tree for better exposure

 

Hope they like what you made and buy it.

Spending time and/or building relationships with PvPers so that you know what they might want to bother buying instead of making upon arrival in their next Dying World.

 

Hope you sell it for enough to: cover the cost of maintaining your stall; cover replacement materials; actually have something extra to show for your time.

Or you start down the slow merchant/crafter death spiral of maintenance costs and insufficient income.

 

Is the risk much less?

Almost certainly.

 
Are the rewards much less?

Almost certainly.

 
Can the most successful make a solid profit?

Almost certainly.

 
Will their profit pale in comparison to the most successful Campaigners?

Almost certainly.

 

The key point that keeps getting overlooked is how big of an impact the combination of two key facts are:

EK improvements require upkeep resources

Absolutely all resources come from campaigns

It is literally impossible for an EK Monarch to not ultimately depend upon Campaigns for all of their resource.

 

CopperStall

Edited by CopperStall

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Campaign & Kingdom FAQ:

41. How do I manage my Kingdom when I am in a Campaign?

This design is still somewhat in flux, because we haven’t nailed down exactly how much we want to “lock” characters to Campaigns.

Our current thinking is to allow players to travel between their Campaigns and their Kingdoms freely, even during Campaigns – but to not allow ANY equipment to transfer between them, other than at the beginning and end of the Campaign (in accordance with that Campaign’s Import and Export rules).

Passive training will NOT be location based; meaning your character(s) will continue to advance at the same rate, regardless of whether they are currently playing in a Campaign or in a Kingdom.

 

I only know this because I've answered this same question before.

 

They went into a bit more speculative detail in one of the interviews, but I don't have time to track that down.

 

Wait, what does "at the beginning and end of a campaign" mean? You have to be there at the very initial hour a campaign starts or you can't join it? At all?

And I can't leave a campaign if it turns out boring or impossible to win? I'm stuck or I twink? How about people campaign-hopping otherwise, not fighting to the end but simply leaving if outdone?

Edited by wincel

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Correction, EK crafting does have risk: you invest resources into your crafting structures; you invest resources into crafting the goods; you get those resources from Campaign worlds only.

 

Every gets: empty 3x3 kingdom.

Heavy contributing KS get: +X cells; +Y buildings

 

and zero resources to do anything with them.

 

Do you want to craft anything at all?

You either Campaign or negotiate with someone who did to get your seed resources in exchange for crafting for them.

 

Do you want to set up a business stall and have something to sell?

More resources from a campaign world directly or through yet more working for others.

 

Hope people find your stall to buy from you.

Spending time and/or in-game resources for advertising or to enter a fealty tree for better exposure

 

Hope they like what you made and buy it.

Spending time and/or building relationships with PvPers so that you know what they might want to bother buying instead of making upon arrival in their next Dying World.

 

Hope you sell it for enough to: cover the cost of maintaining your stall; cover replacement materials; actually have something extra to show for your time.

Or you start down the slow merchant/crafter death spiral of maintenance costs and insufficient income.

 

Is the risk much less?

Almost certainly.

 
Are the rewards much less?

Almost certainly.

 
Can the most successful make a solid profit?

Almost certainly.

 
Will their profit pale in comparison to the most successful Campaigners?

Almost certainly.

 

The key point that keeps getting overlooked is how big of an impact the combination of two key facts are:

EK improvements require upkeep resources

Absolutely all resources come from campaigns

 

CopperStall

 

How does one get money for upkeep if there are no NPC traders not player owned (no pawns)? Or did I miss something?

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How does one get money for upkeep if there are no NPC traders not player owned (no pawns)? Or did I miss something?

Kill things. If it moves, it probably has money on it. Make it die and check.


Formerly Scin Karetyr, a native of Chilastra in Star Wars Galaxies

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How does one get money for upkeep if there are no NPC traders not player owned (no pawns)? Or did I miss something?

 

They do not. Period. There are no independent NPC traders. All NPC traders are Thralls in service to a specific PC. All trading is ultimately between PCs even though NPCs may do the actual trading. 

Eternal Kingdoms are resources sinks.

Campaign worlds are resource faucets.

 

This is why they have a section in the Economy FAQ (#21, I think) about how you can scrap crafted items for partial components if no-one wants to buy them.

http://crowfall.com/#/faq/54ca4682bffce6644cb3380a

 

CopperFall

 

Edit: correction, economy FAQ #21 is about item decay; FAQ #22 is about scrapping crafted items

Edited by CopperStall

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Kill things. If it moves, it probably has money on it. Make it die and check.

So you have to go for campaigns, have to wait for them to end (no resources carried out until the end), can't guarantee if you get enough money out of them (might loose the campaign, have to share loot?) and if you don't do campaigns your personal EK is useless as you can't use parcels without paying upkeep?

Huh??

:blink:

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So you have to go for campaigns, have to wait for them to end (no resources carried out until the end), can't guarantee if you get enough money out of them (might loose the campaign, have to share loot?) and if you don't do campaigns your personal EK is useless as you can't use parcels without paying upkeep?

Huh??

:blink:

 

Pretty much, Don't over extend.

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