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virt

Campaign Permanence – A Framework

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Exactly how they're designing it.  Sure, most players may ignore theirs, outside of artifacts, which they'll keep their EK private anyway.  But, for those that understand the value of EKs, will surely take advantage of them the very second they get into the game.  They will have the public hubs that will be renown throughout CF.  A lot of what you want to turn the campaigns into... will already exist in EKs.

 

Those "overabundance" of posts are simply player wishes... and mostly from the PvE crowd, which won't make it into CF.  

 

Anyway, so your solution to people wanting to make EKs like PvE campaigns.... is to flip it and make PvP campaigns more like PvE EKs.  lol

 

Sorry, still not buying it.

 

So the alternative is to just ignore the problem? Ok, that'll work. EKs are clearly elastic. If there are just a few well-developed EKs, then something's wrong, and the devs need to fix it. The same would be true if a few CWs (or a few extra developed EKs for that matter) can undercut their value so greatly to make them moot. CWs aren't necessarily better, on average, they just have a larger risk/reward variance. That risk provides the extra meaning that the Trammelized EKs can't.

 

You don't have to buy my solution, but not sure why you are ignoring the problem. The devs certainly aren't. That's why they added the Tournament stretch goal.

 

This a really excellent point and now that campaign tournaments are confirmed, perhaps something like this could be worked in. I think just adding on yet another tier of impermanent campaigns for the tournaments would be rather boring. The economists and crafters have their permanent playground in the EKs, so I think something a bit more persistent for the pvp crowd would be much more fun than just another dying world. Hopefully with that stretch goal being reached they will have the funds to play around with campaign tournaments a bit and give us something different and exciting.

 

I never really thought of it that way. It could maybe even let the devs keep the dying worlds on a shorter time-scale (so 3-4 months is more like the max) and easier for them to be a test bed for gameplay.

 

They're going with the simple/safe fix with the tourney system, I think, so I am a little bit disappointed... but with all the other risks they're taking, and no war chest, it is really hard to blame them. Seems like they have a lot to work out anyway. Let's hope for some of that Star Citizen level cash! :)

 

Good ideas here! (: 

 

I'd also like a Win/Loss ruleset (that closes that world) not to be determined by a time limit. So players could potentially fight to save/destroy that world.

 

I'd also like to see some worlds stay around after it's "completed" to play around in the aftermath. That said, I think it would be cool if a world was "shattered" and still playable.

 

I think someone on the forums, or maybe it was the devs, talked about doing that for the dying campaigns. Not so much as "playable" but as a re-visitable world. But it almost makes more sense for CWs, especially ones that lasted a really long time. The longer they last, the greater the monument you would get to take back to the EK. These could some truly epic trophies, like cathedrals, that you would bring back to your EK, with slots for NPCs and relics and artifacts, etc.


The Shipwrecked Pirates

yarrr....

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...You don't have to buy my solution, but not sure why you are ignoring the problem. The devs certainly aren't. That's why they added the Tournament stretch goal....

 

Ugh, because there is no problem to solve.  Ace is providing the tools and it's up to the players on what they do with them.  This has been their philosophy long before they called this Crowfall.  They realize that no matter how much effort they put into the EKs, there's going to be a large % of the players that really don't care.  

 

It's a PvP sandbox, which most players would rather spend their time jumping into a campaign and into a fight or working with their guild member friends in securing an objective.  The community is divided between those that care and want EKs, and those that would rather they don't even exist.  Your solution will do absolutely nothing to sway either one of these groups, since the first would rather just have the EKs and the second have already moved on to the next campaign and could care less about the world surviving.

 

The tournament has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.  It's a PvP MMO and players have requested this... as it satisfies those into esports.  Some players would rather just do arena PvP all day than bother with the Campaigns, let alone the EKs.  Tournaments satisfy that group.

 

Ace is committed to features that add value to PvP, which is why most of the PvE suggestions will just be ignored, since they just don't fit into the CF vision.  EKs exist because they have a vision on how they fit into the CF DNA and add tremendous value to PvP, regardless if the players understand this before they see it fully implemented.  As they consider persistent worlds, they still approach it from a PvP perspective.

 

Perhaps, if you modified your solution so it provides PvP value... it would be more attractive.  In the current state it just adds PvE value and disrupts the EK and campaign features.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Perhaps, if you modified your solution so it provides PvP value... it would be more attractive.  In the current state it just adds PvE value and disrupts the EK and campaign features.

 

I am not sure where you are seeing the PvE part since I don't think these worlds are really meant for that. The resources are diminished (I would go so far as to say no resources at all). There is building stuff but this would be *really* dangerous with pvp turned on, and the building adds to the PvP since the whole point would be to come in and take over someone's castles and kill them. But you're right that all ideas could definitely be improved upon. I am not sure what else could be added to give it more pvp value but perhaps Virt can think of something. 

Edited by Mytherceria

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Ugh, because there is no problem to solve.  Ace is providing the tools and it's up to the players on what they do with them.  This has been their philosophy long before they called this Crowfall.  They realize that no matter how much effort they put into the EKs, there's going to be a large % of the players that really don't care.  

 

It's a PvP sandbox, which most players would rather spend their time jumping into a campaign and into a fight or working with their guild member friends in securing an objective.  The community is divided between those that care and want EKs, and those that would rather they don't even exist.  Your solution will do absolutely nothing to sway either one of these groups, since the first would rather just have the EKs and the second have already moved on to the next campaign and could care less about the world surviving.

 

The tournament has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.  It's a PvP MMO and players have requested this... as it satisfies those into esports.  Some players would rather just do arena PvP all day than bother with the Campaigns, let alone the EKs.  Tournaments satisfy that group.

 

Ace is committed to features that add value to PvP, which is why most of the PvE suggestions will just be ignored, since they just don't fit into the CF vision.  EKs exist because they have a vision on how they fit into the CF DNA and add tremendous value to PvP, regardless if the players understand this before they see it fully implemented.  As they consider persistent worlds, they still approach it from a PvP perspective.

 

Perhaps, if you modified your solution so it provides PvP value... it would be more attractive.  In the current state it just adds PvE value and disrupts the EK and campaign features.

 

Orly? https://youtu.be/13f1-w8IPsY?t=34m20s

 

This idea and the tournaments are both, fundamentally, about creating purpose for winning. People want to know who's on top. Marketing to the esports crowd is just an accident of history and pop culture. They'd put tournaments in this game even if esports wasn't a thing.

 

PvE? Seriously...??? You've written a lot about it, but did you even read my OP? 

 

I am not sure where you are seeing the PvE part since I don't think these worlds are really meant for that. The resources are diminished (I would go so far as to say no resources at all). There is building stuff but this would be *really* dangerous with pvp turned on, and the building adds to the PvP since the whole point would be to come in and take over someone's castles and kill them. But you're right that all ideas could definitely be improved upon. I am not sure what else could be added to give it more pvp value but perhaps Virt can think of something. 

 

The system allows for world banes... not sure how you get more PvP than that. *shrugs*

Edited by virt

The Shipwrecked Pirates

yarrr....

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"It's finding the right motivation for the right person." I really liked that quote from Thomas. I think some people are satisfied with permanence in the EKs where the reward is having the "best" EK, some are satisfied with completely dying worlds where the only reward at the end is winning, and others aren't really satisfied with either and are asking for something a little more in between. I know they can't please everyone but I am happy that they are at least acknowledging it.

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It's an interesting idea but I don't expect to see it any time soon. Maybe if both EKs and Campaigns start to get stale they might want to look into something else but really this sounds like way more effort than a small team should put into a theoretical eventual maybe problem.

It's worth floating the idea etc but only as a thought exercise.

CopperStall

Edited by CopperStall

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I really do love the complexity of this idea but unfortunately I agree it may be too complicated. We may have to settle for a more simple mechanic at first, more like what PopeUrban suggested in the other thread. What we are really asking for here is the opportunity to preserve and hold onto a world that should be dead because the hunger wants to kill it, while we want to "save" it, so something that would more easily fit into the framework that we know is already there might also fulfill this desire and be easier to implement.

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I really do love the complexity of this idea but unfortunately I agree it may be too complicated. We may have to settle for a more simple mechanic at first, more like what PopeUrban suggested in the other thread. What we are really asking for here is the opportunity to preserve and hold onto a world that should be dead because the hunger wants to kill it, while we want to "save" it, so something that would more easily fit into the framework that we know is already there might also fulfill this desire and be easier to implement.

 

Yeah, that is really what it comes down to... but to make it work, it also has to have ways of preventing/combating Uncle Bob. That's where the complexity usually comes in, because you have to make it worth it fight over, but not easy to keep. That's a hard balance to strike. Easiest way to do that is a tournament, because you're just handing out titles and a thrown... and you are only the reigning champ until someone else wins. But the added meaning is not too much more than what you could get from someone aggregating the win/loss records for guilds in the campaigns.... It's like the difference between college football with the BCS championship, and college football now with its 4 team playoff and "official" championship.

 

Haven't seen PopeUrban's suggestion, but I'll go look for it.

Edited by virt

The Shipwrecked Pirates

yarrr....

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