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sheen

Vip Minotaurs...

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Its only a one month head start and really how are we sure that the Minotaur will really be better that all other archetype. Plus its only for a month so after that month everyone will be able to use the archetype.


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This is a nice little post from another thread.  It's pretty clear which players actually have a lot of experience with how models and marketing techniques work, and which players are just a bit naive about such things.

 

I read that earlier and immediately thought that was an alt account of you.  Same sentence structure, same phrasings and same arguments.  Mods can you see posters IP's and confirm or quash this theory?


 

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Yea it's just unfortunate that history is on my side.  Once a company sets a precedent for p2w type stuff in the cash shop they just continue to push the envelope and watch it bend.

 

Shadowbane had exactly this model of delayed access to new/premium races and they didn't fall down that slippery slope last time.


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I read that earlier and immediately thought that was an alt account of you.  Same sentence structure, same phrasings and same arguments.  Mods can you see posters IP's and confirm or quash this theory?

It doesn't surprise me you would think this, you are pretty good at throwing out ridiculous claims. 

 

 

Shadowbane had exactly this model of delayed access to new/premium races and they didn't fall down that slippery slope last time.

Shadowbane had much larger problems that made it so things like this could never even be an issue. 

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You do know every backer has 1 month free VIP already right?

 

So basically its every backer that has access first.


Please click the Like button if my post was helpful, insightful or made no sense at all.

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Covert Operations Specialists - http://theobsidian.co

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I agree with Sheen, here. Buy-to-play involves everyone paying the buy/sub price and having access to the game equally. Pay-for-advantage/pay-to-win emerged from those models by understanding that equal cost was not taking advantage of differing demand and ability to pay. I personally hate pay-to-win and think it is a horrible long-term decision, but I understand Crowfall seeking ways to encourage VIP memberships. I consider having access to archetypes tied to purchasing something extra a form of pay-for-advantage. It's not as harsh as other forms of pay-to-win I have experienced, since a similar phenomenon occurs in some way when releasing an expansion to an existing game.

 

I can imagine scenarios where a guild generally having access to a particular archetype for the whole one-month campaign (and essentially for all of any length campaign, since most people will likely join day one and not later in the campaign) will be a major advantage over other guilds and greatly impacting the campaign.

 

Many people are referencing Crowfall's stated balance design incorrectly, I think, by saying all archetypes will be equal. The devs have openly admitted (rightfully) that balance in the sense of "no advantages/disadvantages based on archetype and promotion class" is not their vision and never works in practice. The alternative seems to be "each archetype excels in some way - no archetype does not have a niche wherein it outperforms all others." (I think this balance design philosophy creates so many great opportunities on the infected ruleset, by the way). If this is a correct interpretation of all that I've read and heard, then I expect Minotaurs to be the best at at least one thing (e.g. hardest hitting tank/best siegers/most carry capability). Will Minotaurs distribute nearly uniformly over guilds? Maybe.

 

I question, however, this particular move. I think it will be exceedingly rare to find a player for whom Minotaurs are the reason on the margin to purchase VIP, so I don't expect this to have a lot of economic advantage.

 

I agree with Sheen's interpretation of pay-to-win, but don't spend time worrying about slippery-slope. If Crowfall winds up monetizing the game in ways that I hate, I'll simply leave, but I'm not going to worry about whether this is an indicator of things to come. I will likely have negative feelings about future races being introduce in the same way down the line, but I'm not going to speculate that Crowfall is also going to introduce purchasable Sword of A Thousand Truths.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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What do you think about alpha and beta players then having prior knowledge to people who start on day 1 of release?


Please click the Like button if my post was helpful, insightful or made no sense at all.

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I think alpha/beta advantage is natural and unavoidable. Of course we should expect playing the game longer to cause advantages. If there was a way around it, that'd be great. In Shadowbane, most of the best guild on live were Beta guilds - though I admit, that conflates some causation with correlation, likely. Paying to enter alpha/beta is not my favorite, but it makes incredible short-term fiscal sense.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I mean, if you guys want to get technical about the whole "deck of cards" advantage, subs can already passive train at least three times as many characters as a non-sub

 

I don't see how this is any different.


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I mean, if you guys want to get technical about the whole "deck of cards" advantage, subs can already passive train at least three times as many characters as a non-sub

 

I don't see how this is any different.

Yea, a lot of people weren't too thrilled about that either. 

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I mean, if you guys want to get technical about the whole "deck of cards" advantage, subs can already passive train at least three times as many characters as a non-sub

 

I don't see how this is any different.

 

And a non-sub can wait a couple of months and spend the money on 3 accounts, therefore also having 3 chars with passive training which you can use to join the same campaign actually.

If I didnt get early bird amber, I would have done this instead of VIP, since I could just rotate 3-4 accounts in the same campaign.

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You can apply the 'p2w' designation anywhere using this argument, at least until the game is free to everyone and the servers are powered with unicorn tears and Cheeto dust. There is a huge gulf between p2w and incentives.

 

A MMO that has been funded with VC or deep pockets does not have the same need to provide incentives to make a game. In this specific case, as is true with any MMO funded in part via Kickstarter, if there are no real benefits to being an early adopter, then why bother? Why not just wait until the 'real' game comes out in 18 months? If there is no real difference between being an adopter and being Gold, Amber, etc, then why pledge more money? For the incentives (titles, tax free parcels, etc).

 

P2w would be 'Early Adopters have exclusive access to Minotaurs forever', and minotaurs were overpowered.

 

This system is more 'Those of you who had the most faith get to try on the outfit first'. And given that minotaurs are a stretch goal, one that was achieved with the money from all of us 'suckers', and would not even be in the game without early adopters, what are you concerned about? If we had the same mindset they would not be in the game, and thus would not be a point of complaint. So I can only assume if it wasn't this it would have been something else.

 

P2w is a mechanic used to trade real world money for specific combat advantages after a game is released.

 

Kickstarter incentives are a mechanic used to trade real world money for the game to actually exist.

 

There's a mild difference between the two.

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I think the biggest problem here is people don't realize how these small advantages can be snowballed into giant advantages.

 

The flaw is that you seem to think someone is going to buy the game and then not play for a month while waiting for Minotaur to be unlocked. If you are only playing because you want to play Minotaur, you are going to buy (or trade in-game for) a month of VIP instead of just wasting a month.

 

If you aren't only playing because you want to play a Minotaur, then you have nothing to worry about- without VIP you only have one passive skill training slot, so your one character is going to be it for awhile anyway, no need to even consider rolling up a Minotaur.

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The flaw is that you seem to think someone is going to buy the game and then not play for a month while waiting for Minotaur to be unlocked. If you are only playing because you want to play Minotaur, you are going to buy (or trade in-game for) a month of VIP instead of just wasting a month.

 

If you aren't only playing because you want to play a Minotaur, then you have nothing to worry about- without VIP you only have one passive skill training slot, so your one character is going to be it for awhile anyway, no need to even consider rolling up a Minotaur.

There is no flaw.  VIP will give me in game power advantages over those that do not VIP.  I will use those advantages and snowball them into big advantages.  Completing the VIP2W. 

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There is no flaw.  VIP will give me in game power advantages over those that do not VIP.  I will use those advantages and snowball them into big advantages.  Completing the VIP2W. 

 

Advantage over who? Everyone has VIP.

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Advantage over who? Everyone has VIP.

Everyone who plays the game will not have VIP.  Some will, some will not.

Edited by sheen

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