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tierless

What Is Ptw To You?

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Lets get this ALL out. I'm looking for lists, bullet points even! I want to know what each person views as pay to win since it seems like every person has a different thing, and each of those things gets dropped into every other thread resulting in the debate of what is PTW. Lets see if we can focus all that into this bad boy right here. I'll start, given I haven't given this a ton of thought.

 

  1. Paying for superior weapons
  2. Paying for superior armor
  3. Paying for superior speed (like physically moving faster in combat because you paid for it)
  4. Paying for superior resources
  5. Paying for buffs
  6. Paying for "rez scrolls" "yay I beat him, OMG he's back"

 

I'm sure I'm missing a ton, help me out here will you?

 

I want all of it.  IRL success should equal in game success!


 

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Then you must have a solution?

How can ACE keep people paying a sub, without hurting peoples feelings with giving VIP members stuff?

By not selling anything that would equate to ingame power ideally.  Because you can do good honest business and still turn a profit if your game itself is good.

 

Good business + good game = more people playing.  In game power for microtransactions = more short term profit, with the very real possibility of creating a disenfranchised playerbase = worse for longevity.

Edited by sheen

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By not selling anything that would equate to ingame power ideally.  Because you can do good honest business and still turn a profit if your game itself is good.

 

So you want a game to survive for years by selling air?

 

You want people to pay 15$ every month to support a game, without getting any rewards in return. Because lord have mercy if peoples feelings are hurt when ACE awards loyalty with some rewards down the road.

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Pay2Win advantages can be disguised in many forms. A lot of mmo game companies will add in P2W features that give only "minor advantages". But after a while, they add new P2W stuff, and then a little more P2W, and more, and more....until the game becomes nothing more than a whale frag fest.

 

Pay 2 win game features usually start off as innocent looking, mostly harmless little cash hooks. But after a game has been out for while, update changes, mechanics changes, more P2Win stuff added in, then it becomes obvious- it was a pay to win ordeal all along.

Players will figure out ways to get their monies worth out of whatever they bought, by hook or by crook, and leverage those combined 'little' p2w advantages into serious game bending/breaking advantages. At that point, the p2w isn't optional any more- it's must have or fail; pay2win.

 

<additional thoughts/rambling below>

 

In a game with a heavy PvP focus, p2w destroys the community. Sure the company still makes money for a while. But many of the most skillful, and most competitive members of the community will eventually feel cheated, and rebel/quit. That just killed the games community leaders. That game will die, and be ridiculed as "pay to win garbage" in the history books.

 

It seems pretty clear to me that ACE is already committed to embracing at least a little bit of p2w. While that may fly in the short term, history has shown that it will grow, and eventually lead to all the ills that p2w brings to a competitive gaming community.

 

But there is hope: DYING WORLDS! So long as the p2w advantages in the from the EK are kept in check by import rules, _AND_ other mechanics, ACE can in theory control how much p2w they allow in a campaign world, on a case by case basis.

 

Personally, I'm waiting to hear what kinds of options I have to stop, or counter enemy EK blessings in the campaigns.

Something more than "cozy up with some whales and get yours too dummy, or else p2w like them".

Knowing that would at least calm me down a little bit after seeing the ACE devs doing an interview with one of the most notorious rmt/gold sellers in the history of mmo gaming. Catch my drift yo?

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Pay To Win? It really depends entirely on who you ask.

 

I've seen players scream "P2W!!!" when a game has a subscription that simply allows priority server queues. Because the subscribers get extra time to skill / level / craft / whatever...

 

A lot of the time the argument is really rises from players who are "Too Cheap To Win", because everything must be free, always. This is because the game was made by people who, due to their excessive good karma and oneness with the universe, do not have to pay bills or anything.

Edited by raeshlavik

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Paying for something that will give a significant advantage to yourself…

 

Does that include paying for a faster internet connection than someone with, say, dsl or dial-up? Or buying the 300mbps package as opposed to the 50mbps? Because those give a measurable advantage…


Hg0LXwa.png

 

 

 

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Does that include paying for a faster internet connection than someone with, say, dsl or dial-up? Or buying the 300mbps package as opposed to the 50mbps? Because those give a measurable advantage…

also P2W. 

 

:D

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Does that include paying for a faster internet connection than someone with, say, dsl or dial-up? Or buying the 300mbps package as opposed to the 50mbps? Because those give a measurable advantage…

 

not too mention a proper headset, display and better graphicscard to get those few fps more. Its all p2w, so ACE needs to make sure only people with the same equipment can play, otherwise its unfair.

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not too mention a proper headset, display and better graphicscard to get those few fps more. Its all p2w, so ACE needs to make sure only people with the same equipment can play, otherwise its unfair.

Stop making so much sense.

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not too mention a proper headset, display and better graphicscard to get those few fps more. Its all p2w, so ACE needs to make sure only people with the same equipment can play, otherwise its unfair.

PS4 and Xbone ports confirmed!

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Someone who has much more time to play the game than me has a huge advantage over me.

 

So it is only fair that I can close the gap by paying poorly made socksloads of money.

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When you have to pay money to get something that you can never attain for free (cosmetics obviously being exempt). 

I'm typically cool if a company is charging for a shortcut to some in-game time sink.  As long as free people can work to get it.  

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Someone who has much more time to play the game than me has a huge advantage over me.

 

So it is only fair that I can close the gap by paying poorly made socksloads of money.

 

To a few on the forum, they would probably agree with you, but instead of paying, they would demand some sort of nolife cutoff where after playing for x hours your progress stops.

because it has to be fair for everyone right?

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I think people claim that games are "pay-to-win" way too often nowadays. I remember when the traditional thinking behind the term was the ability to purchase something with real currency which could not be purchased by in-game currency. Now it seems like even things which can be purchased with both are grounds for claiming "pay-to-win" mechanics, and even early-game focused bonuses like getting a mount a few levels early (Wildstar) seems to upset people.

 

Here are my thoughts on the original list presented:

 

 

1. Depends on the weapon and what you mean by superior. If you pay real money and directly get a weapon that very few people have (super high crafted level, raid quality, etc.) then I would agree and consider that "pay-to-win". If you get a weapon that takes a few hours to obtain at max level, I honestly see nothing wrong with that. 

 

2. Same issue as above with weapons. If you're simply getting good gear that isn't that difficult to obtain, I don't see an issue. If you're getting gear that only the upper 5% of max-level free players have, then you're becoming problematic. 

 

I think a better way to word 1 & 2 would be paying for "the best" weapons/armor. If there's no ceiling above which can be bought, and the highest level of gear takes considerable time for a free player to obtain, then you're encroaching on "pay-to-win" mechanics.

 

3. Agreed, unless the superior speed is something which can reasonably be obtained by free players. If paid players get a 5% speed boost forever, that's a terrible idea. If they get potions which give them speed which can also be crafted (and thus purchased with in-game currency) then I see it as fine. Similarly, if they get a 5% speed increase through use of a one-time item that can also be achieved by doing quests, crafting, etc., then that's also fine depending on the length/difficult of naturally obtaining it.

 

4. Not quite sure what you mean here. If you mean getting resources at a faster rate, I think that's highly subjective. I don't quite care if someone gets 5% more ore from mining, because I can off-set that by playing more pretty easily, and it's not a direct impact to my ability to "win" in any regard. If you mean they get resources that I cannot get without paying, then it's a problem if we are mixed together. If you separate that gear (think Runescape-style free vs. member worlds) than it's not an issue. 

 

5. Only if the buffs can't be obtained easily otherwise. Say you have a Templar class with a lot of cool buffs, and you can pay to have a potion (only obtainable through the cash shop) which gives you these buffs. I don't see that as being an issue since you can remedy the situation by having a Templar with you anyways. The only time that would be bad is if it was in a highly controlled competitive setting, where you may want to avoid Templar's being on your team (2v2, 3v3 arenas, etc.). In gigantic open-world Realm vs. Realm combat, the chance of their being no Templar is very low. Additionally in PvE games, you'll most likely have a Templar in raids anyways, and the cash shop item might just allow solo players to enjoy the game and be able to solo stuff easier. 

 

6. Depends on the limitations and if resurrection scrolls can be obtained through other means. If you can just ressurect at full health/mana right where you died with no delay, that creates a gameplay imbalance. If you can ressurect after a 30 second delay to allow your attackers to move on, now it's a much more contested issues (depends on so many other factors that creating a hypothetical is not plausible). If you can craft resurrection scrolls anyways, why does anyone care if someone played 24/7 to grind them with in-game currency or plays 3 hours a day and thus bought them with real money? 

 

 

 

It's all about the ability to get the item and the power imbalance it creates. Any single cash shop item which isn't cosmetic can either be pay-to-win or completely acceptable depending upon how they balance these two issues. Do you allow cash-purchased potions to be stack-able, have no cooldown, be used in PvP, etc., are common examples of how power is removed from an item to allow it to be more feasibly put in the cash shop. 

 

It's a hard issue to create a concrete list for, because there are so many variables to consider. 

 

Thank you for voicing a moderate view.  

 

I think things are moving a good direction with having purchased items focused on EK's, character slots, or increased bank space....   Keep that influence away from the campaigns, a.k.a. what will really matters.

 

The argument with having VIP Train up characters faster... woo hoo ... you can only play one at a time.

 

Back to the OP .... PtW is real money spent to get toons geared (rewarded) without effort.  Twinked without another character giving it away.  I think that the stated goal of having a flatter power curve (difference) between high and low level characters will make the game better and negate the seriousness of VIP. 

 

There needs to be a mechanism to have people want to pay during the game for the long haul.  Its still a business and would like to see awesome support continue for years.  I think what has been proposed is good... but I dislike the 15.5k extended kickstarter goal for the reasons above.  I don't know that its a serious inequality, but I dislike the chance.

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For me P2W is everything that gives one player something that gives him a measureable power advantage that another non-paying player can't get or can't get in any reasonable way, as well as "convinience" if it gets out of hand.

 

Paying to get equipment that can be crafted or farmed in a few hours ingame isn't P2W, if farming/crafting takes 2 weeks even for an active gamer then it is.

Paying for VIP status or scrolls that give a reasonable XP bonus isn't P2W (up to 100% is fine with me), if the bonus gets out of hand it is P2W. (I've seen asia-grinders that offer up to 1000% bonus XP, you can't defend that as "not P2W because its just XP")

Buff consumeables are always P2W, costumes that offer no stats or are put on a seperate costume slot that has no effect on combat power are never.


Constant optimism will not solve your problems,


but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.

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So you want a game to survive for years by selling air?

 

You want people to pay 15$ every month to support a game, without getting any rewards in return. Because lord have mercy if peoples feelings are hurt when ACE awards loyalty with some rewards down the road.

I remember a time when people paid 15 dollars every month to support a game without getting thing extra over anyone else.  I wonder if any games are still doing that?

 

They don't have to sell air, they can sell cosmetics or other things that do not give an in game advantage. 

 

You do not NEED to sell power to be successful. 

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Pay2Win advantages can be disguised in many forms. A lot of mmo game companies will add in P2W features that give only "minor advantages". But after a while, they add new P2W stuff, and then a little more P2W, and more, and more....until the game becomes nothing more than a whale frag fest.

 

Pay 2 win game features usually start off as innocent looking, mostly harmless little cash hooks. But after a game has been out for while, update changes, mechanics changes, more P2Win stuff added in, then it becomes obvious- it was a pay to win ordeal all along.

Players will figure out ways to get their monies worth out of whatever they bought, by hook or by crook, and leverage those combined 'little' p2w advantages into serious game bending/breaking advantages. At that point, the p2w isn't optional any more- it's must have or fail; pay2win.

 

<additional thoughts/rambling below>

 

In a game with a heavy PvP focus, p2w destroys the community. Sure the company still makes money for a while. But many of the most skillful, and most competitive members of the community will eventually feel cheated, and rebel/quit. That just killed the games community leaders. That game will die, and be ridiculed as "pay to win garbage" in the history books.

 

It seems pretty clear to me that ACE is already committed to embracing at least a little bit of p2w. While that may fly in the short term, history has shown that it will grow, and eventually lead to all the ills that p2w brings to a competitive gaming community.

 

But there is hope: DYING WORLDS! So long as the p2w advantages in the from the EK are kept in check by import rules, _AND_ other mechanics, ACE can in theory control how much p2w they allow in a campaign world, on a case by case basis.

 

Personally, I'm waiting to hear what kinds of options I have to stop, or counter enemy EK blessings in the campaigns.

Something more than "cozy up with some whales and get yours too dummy, or else p2w like them".

Knowing that would at least calm me down a little bit after seeing the ACE devs doing an interview with one of the most notorious rmt/gold sellers in the history of mmo gaming. Catch my drift yo?

Which interview was that?

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