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seventhbeacon

Why Crowfall Is Not P2W, Not That This Will Stop People From Claiming It

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Sure it provides an advantage, but not an unassailable advantage. This is what Coleman was saying. This is what the Eve example illustrates. A player wearing $1000 worth of gear does not prevent a player with 1000-hours worth of gear from killing them. It does not stop 2 players with 100-hours worth of gear from killing them. The player with the $1000 EK does not automagically siphon popularity from other EKs.

 

The expensive advantages that provide very marginal gains are not insurmountable and are not going to worsen the health of the game. 

You don't need an unassailable advantage to be pay2win.  You just need to be able to pay to win.  Not pay2betheonlywinner. 

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We don't even have a working game to apply all these crazy Doom scenarios too.  How can you possibly determine the effects of the Kickstarter without having actual observable data about Crowfall. 

 

Sheen and others of his caliber:

 

If we don't agree on definitions for things then we can't possibly have a conversation.  I don't agree with your definition of "themepark".  It is overly broad to the point where it has very little descriptive value.  Beyond that you have shown very little effort at intellectual honest (check my sig).  Have a great time playing forum Doomsayer. 

 

To everyone else: 

 

If someones arguments are pissing you off, it is important that you don't elevate those opinions by engaging them.  You set the stage by being his audience.

Edited by Addykt

Intellectual honesty is an applied method of problem solving, characterized by an unbiased, honest attitude, which can be demonstrated in a number of different ways:

  • One's personal beliefs do not interfere with the pursuit of truth;
  • Relevant facts and information are not purposefully omitted even when such things may contradict one's hypothesis;
  • Facts are presented in an unbiased manner, and not twisted to give misleading impressions or to support one view over another;
  • References, or earlier work, are acknowledged where possible, and plagiarism is avoided.

 

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Is this still going on?

Any thread that has sheen, willwill, crowmagnonman, unknownxv or doomgrin posting in it will go on much longer than is should because the forums have not learned to ignore their tr0lling ways. I will give them some kudos for their tr0lling skills but they can still suck a hooligan.

Edited by Pyara

"But above all do not bind the anus all that there is congenial to your vision of paradise staff" - leonelion

 

Current ignore list because these people have no sense of reality or common sense: sheen, unknownxv, doomgrin, willwill, crowmagnonman, santa

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You don't need an unassailable advantage to be pay2win. You just need to be able to pay to win. Not pay2betheonlywinner.

Yup. A lot of people don't realize that in a PvP game, one mans paid for RMT advantages are another mans DISadvantages. Most players get tired of paying for other players' advantages, when their costs are measured in wasted time, and losses.

Including P2W mechanics is a really bad business model to try to mix with a PvP focused game design. At least for most players.

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You don't need an unassailable advantage to be pay2win.  You just need to be able to pay to win.  Not pay2betheonlywinner. 

 

But you cannot simply pay to win. Crowfall is going to be strategic and complex enough such that mastery of its mechanics and out-playing others will determine the winner. 

 

The reason people are contentious about your definition of "pay2win" is that the term carries a lot of stigma, and you are throwing it around very liberally: "any game that allows a player to trade real world money for an in-game advantage is pay2win". This definition would include any game with a subscription, any game with any sort of cash shop (vanity items can provide psychological advantages), and any expansion or DLC model. 

 

When most people discuss pay2win, they mean a game in which the primary and perhaps only method of competition is with real world money. A player must spend real world money in order to even have a chance at winning. A player must buy golden ammo, or an overpowered skill/weapon. Not spending money precludes victory. And those who spend the most will win the most. 

 

Crowfall will not be a competition to see who can spend the most.

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We don't even have a working game to apply all these crazy Doom scenarios too.  How can you possibly determine the effects of the Kickstarter without having actual observable data about Crowfall. 

 

Sheen and others of his caliber:

 

If we don't agree on definitions for things then we can't possibly have a conversation.  I don't agree with your definition of "themepark".  It is overly broad to the point where it has very little descriptive value.  Beyond that you have shown very little effort at intellectual honest (check my sig).  Have a great time playing forum Doomsayer. 

 

To everyone else: 

 

If someones arguments are pissing you off, it is important that you don't elevate those opinions by engaging them.  You set the stage by being his audience.

You don't have to agree with my definition of themepark, but it isn't my definition.  It isn't broad at all.  Devs create a themepark of vertical progression, give you certain rides to get there, traditional formats being level based systems where you gain experience by killing monsters.  Wanna take the rogue ride?  The warrior ride?  The level 40 level area ride? 

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Any thread that has sheen, willwill, crowmagnonman, unknownxv or doomgrin posting in it will go on much longer than is should because the forums have not learned to ignore their tr0lling ways. I will give them some kudos for their tr0lling skills but they can still suck a hooligan.

Well, seeing as you are some king of expert on how to keep others from posting, why did you have to violate the forum rules AGAIN to cuss at me? I'll just tell you now, thats going to have the exact opposite effect from me.

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But you cannot simply pay to win. Crowfall is going to be strategic and complex enough such that mastery of its mechanics and out-playing others will determine the winner. 

 

The reason people are contentious about your definition of "pay2win" is that the term carries a lot of stigma, and you are throwing it around very liberally: "any game that allows a player to trade real world money for an in-game advantage is pay2win". This definition would include any game with a subscription, any game with any sort of cash shop (vanity items can provide psychological advantages), and any expansion or DLC model. 

 

When most people discuss pay2win, they mean a game in which the primary and perhaps only method of competition is with real world money. A player must spend real world money in order to even have a chance at winning. A player must buy golden ammo, or an overpowered skill/weapon. Not spending money precludes victory. And those who spend the most will win the most. 

 

Crowfall will not be a competition to see who can spend the most.

I'm not throwing it around liberally.  It's really easy, anytime you can use RMT to get in game power that is a pay2win mechanic.  If you do it enough to get enough in game power you have a huge advantage.

 

It would not include subs because subs put everyone on equal playing field.  If you want to argue vanity items provide a psychological advantage and you want to compare that to things that directly provide tangible in game power, that is just not debating in good faith.  Expansions are generally tied to heavy vertical progression games that are designed a certain way.  An expansion would only be pay2win if you could buy expansion tokens and trade them in game for in game power. 

 

And no most people do not use the chinese mmo $150K for ultimate sword definition of pay2win when referring to games as pay2win because based on that definition there aren't many mmos if any in the west that would qualify. 

 

They use p2w to describe the questionable system of games that sell in game power for rmt.  Because you are paying to win.  Not paying or else you can't win. 

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What I find somewhat ironic is that most of the arguments being used against the EVE styled system are that somehow spending real money becomes mandatory to compete, when EVE shows the exact opposite result: the top tier players are actually spending in-game currency to get game time because their skills are such that they have more currency then they need to be competitive. So the "problem" with PLEX is that it helps noobs close the gap by providing options they otherwise couldn't field. If one is going to attack the system conceptually (which is all we can do at this point since implementation details are nonexistant), you need to be honest and complain about the fact that it helps people catch up, not that it provides an edge that becomes mandatory, since that doesn't happen in EVE and Crowfall is looking to have even more counters to prevent it.

 

Honestly, I really am not sympathetic to the argument that somehow having 8 hours  a day to grind in game is valid but being able to spend $20 a month is somehow invalid. The only thing that's created out of thin air is the VIP pass itself, and it's being traded to someone who wants it. The resources they give in return were mined the normal way, with all the risks and complications that entails. The reason "pay2win" is bad is because it's implemented in ways where money bypasses the normal loop and provides either advantages that can't be obtained otherwise or brings something into existance that counters or defeats what was "earned" via the normal means. This does neither, and would be the equivalent of having a guildmate with more playtime who is willing to donate his spare resources for the good of the guild. This just lets you bring another option in to purchase those resources from otherwise neutral parties.

 

If what one considers "fair" is that those with more time to grind should always be at an advantage, then yes, this is a problem. I don't think that's superior design, and I don't think that the guy who can play all day should always have a mechancial advantage over others. Is being able to spend real money to bridge the gap my favorite solution? No, but it's certainly not the worst.

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The P2W argument has been so diluted, its become the joke of the forum, thats how bad its gotten.

It's really still based on a very simple principle.  Does the game facilitate a way for players to use real money to acquire in game power.  if so it has p2w. 

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It's really still based on a very simple principle.  Does the game facilitate a way for players to use real money to acquire in game power.  if so it has p2w. 

 

I've done this dance with you 3 times now, my head cant take a 4th, so I'll leave you to do your thing.

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I've done this dance with you 3 times now, my head cant take a 4th, so I'll leave you to do your thing.

Sheen will "win" the p2w argument, not because he have changed a single persons mind, but because he will keep on saying the same tired lines long after the rest of us have moved on.

 

Nothing will have changed though


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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It's really still based on a very simple principle.  Does the game facilitate a way for players to use real money to acquire in game power.  if so it has p2w. 

 

I play a lot of games with p2w then. And I enjoy them very much. I can't wait for Crowfall!

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This speaks for itself.

 

JTODD from the Reddit AMA:

 

 

This SHOULD rest the case.  It won't.  But it should.  If that's not good enough for you, then why are you still raising the issue in these forums?  Go find a game that doesn't have a cash shop/PLEX-ish system.

 

 

 

And anyone who crys.. 1% buff is pay to win ...

 

If it takes 300 days to full max out everything (assumption).

That means KS people are there 3 DAYS faster!! WTF IMBA!Hahah!

 

No seriuosly.

None of the KS Items is remotely P2W.

 

And the minotaur early acess of a month, is just icing on VIP.

We will see "new champs going first to vips" often.

It could be a selling point.

 

These people will be able to try them out first.

And most likely be hit with the nerf batton of love, while they are doing it~

 

Good going creating this my glorius guildmaster.

Added stuff~

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From OP:

 

This SHOULD rest the case.  It won't.  But it should.  If that's not good enough for you, then why are you still raising the issue in these forums?  Go find a game that doesn't have a cash shop/PLEX-ish system.

 

The issue is alive and well when people can drop 1000 dollars into the kickstarter to BEGIN the game with a huge advantage over everyone else, thats Pay2Win regardless of your VIP/time served argument.  

 

Please just accept that every non-subscription based MMO that comes out from here on out will be Pay2Win...period.

 

If you cant read that last sentence and see its truth then stop posting about it, take a look at every MMORPG that is f2p and you will see some type of advantage that is gained through real money.  That is the definition or Pay2Win, every other definition is just a rationalized enabler of the Pay2Win attitude. 

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From OP:

 

The issue is alive and well when people can drop 1000 dollars into the kickstarter to BEGIN the game with a huge advantage over everyone else, thats Pay2Win regardless of your VIP/time served argument.  

 

Please just accept that every non-subscription based MMO that comes out from here on out will be Pay2Win...period.

 

If you cant read that last sentence and see its truth then stop posting about it, take a look at every MMORPG that is f2p and you will see some type of advantage that is gained through real money.  That is the definition or Pay2Win, every other definition is just a rationalized enabler of the Pay2Win attitude. 

The game is the Campaigns. You won't be winning a damn thing by having extra plots and tax free parcels and little 1% buffs in You're EK. If you think 1% is a huge advantage well no amount of arguing is going to fix that. Seeing as how you actually need to play and win to bring resources back to your EK to build on those parcels to begin with. Its fluff that every single MMO ever pretty much has.

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