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Swgs Greatest Feature?


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Only since being part of some KS games have I realized SWG's greatest trick. I used to think it was their real world crafting profssion division of labor which resulted in the game world always feeling real and alive as "everyone was out doing something". At times I've thought maybe it was the wound and fatigue systems combined with the social classes with resulted in a deeper community connection. I've said it was the play housing based on how many times I re-subbed just to walk around my guild hall turned art gallery to admire my collections. I now realize while all of those things played a significant roll, it was an accident that made SWG feel so special.

 

The accident of launching way way too early resulted in a game that evolved as we played it and it made SWG a once in a generation MMO experience. From day one rumors and theories flew around the servers and trickled down through the features I mentioned above. "mounts are coming soon" "I heard they are re-vamping combat" "swoops are already designed they just need to be implemented" "did you see the patch notes, class X got all the love and I hear next month pistoleer is being fixed" "FOTM will be X" "I heard they are adding the next stage of weapons and armor in the next big update" "I hear its called Jump to Light Speed, its like Rogue Squadron but the MMO version!".

 

What started as an accident meant a game that changed, grew and evolved as we played it much faster than we had seen in other MMOs. In the early days everyone ran around on foot with basic weapons, then came mounts, finally swoops etc. Creature handling started broken and became one of the most lgendary MMO classes of all time. The Jedi evolution while being way to much of a typical grind with a bunch of class flaws was equally legendary. I've not seen an MMO since dare to try a god class (like for good reasons LOL). Best of all, likely also by accident, the drastic changes often created incredible swings in the economy and basic game functions. If you didn't keep up with them your leet class today was broken tomorrow. What took 40 hours one week took 10 the next and 80 the one after that!

 

At times it was frustrating but just when you were about to quit for the umteenth time it was patch day! (meaning the servers would likely be down for 2x more than stated by SOE) But also meaning the game just changed! I remember a friend saying "I want to quit but I feel like if I come back in 2 months I'll have to relearn the entire game because it changes so quickly". As much as it was an accident, and as maddening as it could be, the additions over the first couple of years were possibly the single biggest contributor to SWG "feeling" so speical compared to other MMORPGs. 

 

"Nice trip down memory lane, whats your point?"

 

My point is I realized all of this because of KS MMOs letting me get in early and sort of duplicate some of those SWG feelings of watching something grow and change over time. To bring it full circle Crowfalls rule sets, and the amout of experimentation they are willing to do with them might be SWG's accidental mechanic made purposeful and I can't wait to watch them evolve.

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Tierless, you are tireless.

 

Long post. Good one.

 

The accident of launching way way too early resulted in a game that evolved as we played it and it made SWG a once in a generation MMO experience.

 

I do not think it is 'too early' for MMO except for a case when it is technically broken. MMORPGs grow, that's almost natural order. Community more often then not criticize a lot of games for early launch but truth is some things cannot be known until game is launched. Sometimes even test, however wide and thorough, is not enough. With SWG it was very right thing to do, gathering from your post. I joined a month after launch, I think. Maybe later, considering mounts were there.

 

The Jedi evolution while being way to much of a typical grind with a bunch of class flaws was equally legendary. I've not seen an MMO since dare to try a god class (like for good reasons LOL).

 

Sureshot cowards all of them. *nods grimly*

 

My point is I realized all of this because of KS MMOs letting me get in early and sort of duplicate some of those SWG feelings of watching something grow and change over time. To bring it full circle Crowfalls rule sets, and the amout of experimentation they are willing to do with them might be SWG's accidental mechanic made purposeful and I can't wait to watch them evolve.

 

I am watching KS projects evolve for some time and it is really promising in general. No publisher breathing over developer's shoulder is a thing.

 

As for this game we'll see (duh, obvious), but from what developers told us - and very actively - this will be a game that will differ from others and mechanic will be complex.

 

My problem with last decade of MMORPGs was that they all lacked any complexity whatsoever. Dull themepark or cutthroat sandbox is not good enough. I constantly criticize others for consumerist stance on games while I sound like this, but truth is I missed gameplay being worthwhile (that's a bit different from entitlement). Is it some long quest, bright as sun PvP matches or puzzle that make my abacus click - not that important. But after WoW became mainstream we got more and more MMO that were waste of time and gave no sense of accomplishment whatsoever. Even things that were hard in those MMORPGs were not worth it (gearmill, I am looking at you). Everything worthwhile is hard, but not everything hard is worthwhile, aha.

 

I do not imply some higher meaning in MMORPGs, games are games - even online ones. But Everquest, Asheron's Call and especially SWG made my gameplay session an adventure. I already told here somewhere how I was planning smuggler at first and ended up with mix of sniper and ranger. Because I was so into game I lost my initial intention to play pre-defined character. I adapted, played reactively snatching opportunities as they came at me. I did not think about any pre-determined path, I had fun and explored.

 

With mechanic Crowfall presented us so far I think this game will come to restore this kind of experience. Campaign mechanic alone is already a thing that is very much about exploration. As for pre-determined archetypes... Well, if I understand anything about game systems they are not so much pre-determined as just giving enough direction and division of roles (not classes from other MMORPGs, that's for sure).  Good for balance, too.

 

I won't lie I am excited about the game, I am no kid. But I think if someone can deliver level of sophistication and exploration demanded by current situation (let's be honest: the one who will do that will soar high) that is AC. And Crowfall is that kind of game. There are others, but IMHO this one on short list of 'the best'.

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I don't know if I would agree that SWG launch "too" early. I suppose my rose-tinted glasses could be effecting me, but things seemed to flow pretty well. I do agree that being in-game while so many large systems were being added was cool. Mounts, vehicles, JtL, and Player Cities. If anything, the problem was that SOE (and maybe any dev team at that time) was simply incapable of doing it any better than it was. Database issues and the codebase (do I remember right that they were coding in java?) put us in a box. But even with all that, they managed to make a pretty amazing game. This is what is so frustrating about this whole thing. Imagine what a dev team in 2015 could do if they took all the parts and pieces of SWG and assembled them using modern technology! 

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I don't know if I would agree that SWG launch "too" early. I suppose my rose-tinted glasses could be effecting me, but things seemed to flow pretty well. I do agree that being in-game while so many large systems were being added was cool. Mounts, vehicles, JtL, and Player Cities. If anything, the problem was that SOE (and maybe any dev team at that time) was simply incapable of doing it any better than it was. Database issues and the codebase (do I remember right that they were coding in java?) put us in a box. But even with all that, they managed to make a pretty amazing game. This is what is so frustrating about this whole thing. Imagine what a dev team in 2015 could do if they took all the parts and pieces of SWG and assembled them using modern technology! 

 

Gordon would know but a friend of mine in testing (how many times have we heard that hehe) said that weeks before launch huge features were still broken and even the entire combat que system was acctually a temporary placeholder until they could get in the system they wanted (which had more of an aiming capability). I dunno if he is right but I do remember wondering why the aimer had that toggle but it didn't do anything (until the combat upgrade). 

 

I thought I also remember them originally saying they wanted mounts, vehicles, and maybe even JTLS in by launch but as time passed they weren't able to get them in due to pressure to release. Its been so long now its hard to recall. 

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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But even with all that, they managed to make a pretty amazing game. This is what is so frustrating about this whole thing.

 

Yep.

 

Imagine what a dev team in 2015 could do if they took all the parts and pieces of SWG and assembled them using modern technology! 

 

Every time this topic surface. Every blasted time.

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Yep.

 

 

Every time this topic surface. Every blasted time.

 

 

LOL I don't blame him. Every time I look up at the stars I don't think OMG this is amazing I think...in an infinite universe, of infinite possabilities, somewhere out their in all that space is another planet just like this one, but on that planet SWG wasnt unfinished and full of bugs meaning it was an even bigger hit...meaning the MMO genre embraced the "living world concept" meaning WOW would have been a living world and by now they are all playing SWG2! I then hope we discover hyperspace travel so I can go visit this place some day.

 

Or I hope to win the lottery and fund SWG 2. I literally have not really "gotten into" a single MMO since SWG...even with its technical issues it was still so so sooo much better than anything since!

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Or I hope to win the lottery and fund SWG 2. I literally have not really "gotten into" a single MMO since SWG...even with its technical issues it was still so so sooo much better than anything since!

Hah! I plan on doing the same thing. My hope is that I would have at least 30 million to do it. Anyone know how much SWG cost to develop? Hmm... should ask Gordon... I also thought about buying in to an existing development team and co-opting their project, lol. The Firefall project as Version 2 would be a cool IP to do this in. Or I could jump in with the Repop guys. Maybe a fat infusion of cash could get them moving along better.....

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it's open world


Hah! I plan on doing the same thing. My hope is that I would have at least 30 million to do it. Anyone know how much SWG cost to develop? Hmm... should ask Gordon... I also thought about buying in to an existing development team and co-opting their project, lol. The Firefall project as Version 2 would be a cool IP to do this in. Or I could jump in with the Repop guys. Maybe a fat infusion of cash could get them moving along better.....

depends do you actually want to use the Star Wars IP? 

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I don't know how other people feel about this, but my favorite aspect was the Jedi system prior to it being revamped.  There was something about the mystery behind how to become a Jedi (at first) and the progression that was so intriguing.  You don't see aspects like this in MMO's anymore.

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My favorite was the smuggling system!

 

Oh, wait.

 

Horse is dead, but he keeps swinging. That's a man after my own heart. I say resurrect said horse, then beat it down again.

 

:D

 

Seriously, though. While I can't agree more with you, game is still good.

I wonder why they never implemented any smuggling system with any of expansions. Bounty hunting was pretty good I heard.

 

I don't know how other people feel about this, but my favorite aspect was the Jedi system prior to it being revamped.  There was something about the mystery behind how to become a Jedi (at first) and the progression that was so intriguing.  You don't see aspects like this in MMO's anymore.

 

Found out that Awakening server made unknown Jedi unlock. Kinda interesting. Though they have some modifications to original game, but not much and no known way to unlock Jedi trumps everything in my eyes.

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We were told Sony wasn't comfortable with putting in an "illegal" system into their game. That it would promote the wrong morals.

 

But hunting down people for money and fighting for repressive, racist regimes is cool, I guess.

 

And, yes, there's not that much left of the horse, but I hold grudges a long... long time.

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Bairloch, I don't remember ever seeing anyone explain what a 'smuggling' system might look like in an MMO. Would it be PvE only? I don't see how you could bring players in too much. Unless you're talking about the after-effects of it, allowing players to play the role of Greebo. 

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We were told Sony wasn't comfortable with putting in an "illegal" system into their game. That it would promote the wrong morals.

 

Wow. That's just... *beats dead horse a few times* ...one of the most stupid excuses I ever heard. Sorry for before, now I am with you on this one.

 

But hunting down people for money and fighting for repressive, racist regimes is cool, I guess.

 

^o^ Well, I think so. My, that's just... 'Yes, yes, yes... Stop. Look... These people are full of ****.' 'Illegal system'...

 

And, yes, there's not that much left of the horse, but I hold grudges a long... long time.

 

Well, that is no healthy thing, but since I do that too... :)

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Bairloch, I don't remember ever seeing anyone explain what a 'smuggling' system might look like in an MMO. Would it be PvE only? I don't see how you could bring players in too much. Unless you're talking about the after-effects of it, allowing players to play the role of Greebo. 

 

Don't know about MMO in general, but I could see it in SWG easily. I want to hear what Bairloch has to say, though.

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Bairloch, I don't remember ever seeing anyone explain what a 'smuggling' system might look like in an MMO. Would it be PvE only? I don't see how you could bring players in too much. Unless you're talking about the after-effects of it, allowing players to play the role of Greebo. 

Oh, man, we had so, so many proposals. I mean, we spent literal years on these things. The best (IMHO) and most comprehensive ones focused around the Jedi. I mean, we had hundreds of these supposedly non-existent Jedi, how were they all avoiding the Imps? Smugglers! Once the "wars" part of things came in, how were the Imps getting to Rebel controlled planets and vice-versa to do battle? Smugglers!

 

When you docked or took off from a spaceport, you would be (off-screen) scanned. Your smuggler skill and the smuggler upgrades you had made to your ship (shielded holds, etc.) would decide if you passed or failed. So if you had just failed on a launch, you'd have to use your piloting skills to avoid The Man and get away. If you did, they put out a bounty on you that player bounty hunters could enforce.

 

If you were landing, then you'd get scanned (off-screen) at the spaceport. Again (like in Ep IV) your skill and upgrades would decide if you got caught. If so, you'd either have to fight back to your ship and take off or fight your way out of town.

 

Those "patrols" you'd always see would be able to scan you too. So Jedis and flagged toons on conflicting worlds would pretty much always want to be in a party with a Smuggler to keep from getting picked up on the random patrol scans.

 

Ship builders get in on the act building smuggling components for ships. Bounty Hunters get to hunt Jedi and the Smugglers that aid them. Good pilots are needed to get away from a failed scan. Flagged Imps or Rebs need Smugglers to get around on occupied worlds.

 

We didn't really want to be slicers. Thought that was more of a weaponsmith thing. But once the stuff was illegally sliced, who can move it for you? We didn't want to be drug dealers and meth cooks, leave that to someone else. But if you need it moved, we're your people. Still those same ship scans and random patrols to deal with, you need us.

 

There was a lot more, but I can't remember it all. It's been years.

Edited by bairloch

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Cool, thanks for the info. I figured it would have to be a PvE thing mostly. The limitations of a video game mean the only "good" smuggling system will be a Role Play one between players, heh. IIRC, didn't SWG have scans? Didn't Stormtroopers occasionally scan you when you ran by them in NPC cities? I think a smuggling system you describe would be kinda fun, but so easy to set up a formula for success. Uness you add in the evil RNG crap....

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Oh yes, there would have to be RNG. It would be PvP as well as PvE though as smugglers would be trying to move Jedi and flagged combatants around while combatants from the other side (and jedi hunters) would be trying to seek and destroy.

 

In Crowfall it could be much easier, really. To implement, not to do. I mean, people are going to claim POIs (technically PsOI). They are not going to want just anybody coming in and taking their generated resources. Say it's a mine. Someone claims it. If you can get in, get the ore, and get it out, then find someone to sell it to, well that's smuggling. And it looks a lot like it could happen.

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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We didn't really want to be slicers. Thought that was more of a weaponsmith thing. But once the stuff was illegally sliced, who can move it for you? We didn't want to be drug dealers and meth cooks, leave that to someone else. But if you need it moved, we're your people. Still those same ship scans and random patrols to deal with, you need us.

 

Slicing I was okay with, but then again it's a matter of choice. Besides how slicing turned out - mostly as skill to make weapons better, not as general computer skill (slicing terminals was fun, though) - you are right. Definitely right about meth. Also selling other's faction points was kind of something I did not like at the time.

 

I thought more of a quest system, where you have to collect rumors (I remember something like that for Force Sensitives). Search for job in places like Jabba's palace and sometimes find one. Also top of the game players might be approached by different parties via ingame e-mail or by NPC in cantinas. Sort of mini-game akin to bounty hunting.

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I thought more of a quest system, where you have to collect rumors (I remember something like that for Force Sensitives). Search for job in places like Jabba's palace and sometimes find one. Also top of the game players might be approached by different parties via ingame e-mail or by NPC in cantinas. Sort of mini-game akin to bounty hunting.

 

Just so it wasn't the "pizza delivery in a dangerous neighborhood" system they eventually put in to try to placate us. "Take this random item, we swear it's contraband, and take it to this guy at these coords. Oh, and someone will definitely jump you along the way. When/if you get back, you can do it all over again. Ad nauseam."

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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