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halethrain

Painting A Target

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The ability to paint a target a particular color for a limited amount of time would be an interesting idea in my opinion. A reverse of the power could also be available to clear the painting.

 

It would be a good way to promote focused targeting, and I can think of a few interesting ways such a power could be subverted.


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And then have multiple different colours. Then you'd be able to make pictures using characters! 

 

Because that's all I can see myself using it for, trolling and misplaced creativity. But hey, I'm not a tactical genius, so perhaps someone can explain to me how this would actually be useful and not redundant to standard approaches to tactics and communication.

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And then have multiple different colours. Then you'd be able to make pictures using characters! 

 

Because that's all I can see myself using it for, posting and misplaced creativity. But hey, I'm not a tactical genius, so perhaps someone can explain to me how this would actually be useful and not redundant to standard approaches to tactics and communication.

 

Giving multiple options to achieve the same thing is not redundancy, it's variety. Action combat is hectic, and a lack of tab targeting can make finding targets difficult. Being able to paint a target would assist in focus targeting. 

Edited by halethrain

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Giving multiple options to achieve the same thing is not redundancy, it's variety. Action combat is hectic, and a lack of tab targeting can make finding targets difficult. Being able to paint a target would assist in focus targeting. 

And what's the gameplay benefit of making it easier to focus fire (in a game that doesn't allow for focus healing)?

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Target painting is tricky. I mean it only makes sense to want to coordinate efforts but it also promotes a zerg mentality if you ask me. Here's to hoping ACE designs combat and campaigning so people won't want to zerg.

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I don't know if this is how you meant it or not, but here's how I'm going to interpret your question:

 

And what's the gameplay benefit [independent of the tactical benefit] of making it easier to focus fire (in a game that doesn't allow for focus healing)?

 

With that slant on the question, I don't know that it matters whether or not there's "focus [firehose] healing" in the game.  In a system where a unit's damage output isn't dependent on its current health the tactical benefit to focus fire is unquestionable.

 

As for the gameplay benefit, we can assume that organized groups (whether large guilds or just a group of friends that play together regularly) will have a means outside of the game to coordinate focus fire that will be just about as effective as anything provided by the game itself.

 

So who would benefit from an in-game mechanism to coordinate focus fire?  Allies that aren't in voice chat together, e.g. ad-hoc allies whether by faction or by circumstance.  Providing an in-game mechanism will help to level the playing field for them.  Whether or not this is desirable is something ACE will have to decide.  I think it is.

 

To extend the idea, it might also be useful to be able to "paint" locations in the world, e.g. to designate a rendezvous point, rallying point, or the location of an enemy that some in the group can't see.

 

Another use for "painting" map locations would be due to the fact that we'll have lobbed projectiles.  Having a spotter able to "call out" locations with higher value targets that are outside the LOS of the archer/mage will be a benefit in some situations (e.g. a siege).

 

Keep in mind that this will happen whether or not it's a feature provided by the game, at least for those with the infrastructure and planning to make it happen outside of the game.  The question for ACE is whether they want to reward those large, organized, groups or whether they want a more level playing field for ad-hoc groups.


soli deo gloria

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I prefer the assist method where you can only assist if you remain within some distance from the assistee. That said I like the idea of being able to counter the paint.

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As for the gameplay benefit, we can assume that organized groups (whether large guilds or just a group of friends that play together regularly) will have a means outside of the game to coordinate focus fire that will be just about as effective as anything provided by the game itself.

 

Why would we assume this? Are we expecting the game client to support 3rd party mods/macros that will allow one player to visually paint a target for other players?

 

If not, and you're just talking about organized groups being organized enough that they can quickly call out and prioritize targets in via chat/voice/???, then that's

 

1. A pretty significant achievement in teamwork, and a good example of "skill" at a group level

2. Still not "about as effective" as being able to visually paint a target with one click so that a group of total strangers can focus it

 

So yeah, what's the gameplay benefit of making a very powerful offensive tool (with no defensive counter) available to any group that takes the time to say "NUKE THE BLUE GLOW" in chat before attacking? As opposed to encouraging players to actively work on their tactics and teamwork?

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Why would we assume this? Are we expecting the game client to support 3rd party mods/macros that will allow one player to visually paint a target for other players?

 

If not, and you're just talking about organized groups being organized enough that they can quickly call out and prioritize targets in via chat/voice/???, then that's

 

1. A pretty significant achievement in teamwork, and a good example of "skill" at a group level

2. Still not "about as effective" as being able to visually paint a target with one click so that a group of total strangers can focus it

 

So yeah, what's the gameplay benefit of making a very powerful offensive tool (with no defensive counter) available to any group that takes the time to say "NUKE THE BLUE GLOW" in chat before attacking? As opposed to encouraging players to actively work on their tactics and teamwork?

It isnt hard

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Why would we assume this? Are we expecting the game client to support 3rd party mods/macros that will allow one player to visually paint a target for other players?

 

If not, and you're just talking about organized groups being organized enough that they can quickly call out and prioritize targets in via chat/voice/???, then that's

 

1. A pretty significant achievement in teamwork, and a good example of "skill" at a group level

2. Still not "about as effective" as being able to visually paint a target with one click so that a group of total strangers can focus it

 

So yeah, what's the gameplay benefit of making a very powerful offensive tool (with no defensive counter) available to any group that takes the time to say "NUKE THE BLUE GLOW" in chat before attacking? As opposed to encouraging players to actively work on their tactics and teamwork?

 

I am talking specifically about voice communication, where targets can be quickly called out by name or by description in the middle of combat while everyone is able to continue devoting both hands to combat.  The lack of interruption in combat controls can offset the fact that there's nothing visual in game to reinforce the target selection.

 

Since we know that does happen, especially with the established PvP guilds, then they will always have that edge in combat against ad-hoc groups.  This is above and beyond the advantage that they already have of being a cohesive team that is familiar with each other's builds and play styles.

 

ACE seems to want to encourage people to have times when they will work with those outside of their guild, e.g. the 3 faction and 12 faction rulesets.  Even in the Dregs, I believe that part of the point of removing all pre-existing factions (including guilds) is to allow and encourage ad-hoc alliances to form (so they can later be betrayed).

 

If that kind of social interaction is desirable and to be encouraged, then I believe that the game should provide some means to assist group coordination in the absence of voice chat.

 

Now, I wouldn't be opposed to it being something that's tied to a specific Discipline, Archetype, or Promotion Class instead of being a universal feature.  In fact, the more I think about it being something you have to build into a character, the more I like that idea.  That also means it will make more sense, in terms of game mechanics, to have a way to avoid, limit, or eliminate the targeting.


soli deo gloria

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I am talking specifically about voice communication, where targets can be quickly called out by name or by description in the middle of combat while everyone is able to continue devoting both hands to combat.  The lack of interruption in combat controls can offset the fact that there's nothing visual in game to reinforce the target selection.

 

I'm not seeing how that would offset it at all - clicking a blue-glowing enemy is going to be much, much faster and more accurate than "Okay everyone focus the warrior in the blue hat standing at the back of that one group over to the side, no not the one with the axe, the one with the sword". We're talking about big battles, right? Not like 3v3 arenas.

 

Unless we have a /target by name command, in which case I do see your point (and can't wait for every big battle to turn into a screen full of "names" that are just a garble of unprounounceable letters).

Edited by Rabscuttle

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The effectiveness and efficiency of painting is pretty hard to dispute. The problem is, giving that ability could dumb things down too much. I use dumb down loosely, you could also say it makes it overly accessible. Either way the net result is a more simplistic battlefield. Not always a bad thing but it would make elements of combat too simplistic imho.

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geeez...there was one of these Threads already, ffs...

 

i'll say the same here unless i find the other one to merge this with...

 

just say hell NO to "painting"

 

now...if there was a spell wiht a visual effect that can be used as such...and is able to be dispelled....then i'm fine with it

 

but some kind of "faerie fire" that ONLY paints, always hits and can't be dispelled...ummmm....NO, imo

 

hope that helps


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I'm not seeing how that would offset it at all - clicking a blue-glowing enemy is going to be much, much faster and more accurate than "Okay everyone focus the warrior in the blue hat standing at the back of that one group over to the side, no not the one with the axe, the one with the sword". We're talking about big battles, right? Not like 3v3 arenas.

 

Unless we have a /target by name command, in which case I do see your point (and can't wait for every big battle to turn into a screen full of "names" that are just a garble of unprounounceable letters).

 

What we've been told is that the combat system won't have "tab targeting", which I think means that if we want to hit the guy glowing blue that we'll have to position ourselves in the right place and aim our attacks in the right direction, rather than just click on them once or "/target" them.  If they're a mobile target then you'll still have to play with skill in order to land your blows.

 

I'm not talking about "arena battles" at all.  As I understand it, the design of Crowfall is for most PvP combat to happen "out in the world", with conflicts ranging from two opposing scouts stumbling upon each other by accident to full-scale sieges.


soli deo gloria

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If by "painting" you mean placing a mark above their head then I'm fine with that. Just make it so the person marking has to aim at them and press a button to assign a mark. Individual group members still need to aim at the guy to hit him, but it makes him easier to find so I see nothing wrong with that. It'd be odd if they didn't have something like that. It is helpful too in marking your own group members such as your tanks or support or whatever.

Edited by leiloni

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now...if there was a spell with a visual effect that can be used as such...and is able to be dispelled....then i'm fine with it

 

but some kind of "faerie fire" that ONLY paints, always hits and can't be dispelled...ummmm....NO, imo

 

Yeah, as I've corresponded on this thread I've become convinced of that too.


soli deo gloria

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geeez...there was one of these Threads already, ffs...

 

i'll say the same here unless i find the other one to merge this with...

 

just say hell NO to "painting"

 

now...if there was a spell wiht a visual effect that can be used as such...and is able to be dispelled....then i'm fine with it

 

but some kind of "faerie fire" that ONLY paints, always hits and can't be dispelled...ummmm....NO, imo

 

hope that helps

 

 

I only used "paint" as that's the military term for laser guidance. I like the idea of being able to paint a specific person (dispellable) or be able to lets say create a smoke signal on static ground. Both would be super helpful for coordinating in large battles. There are a lot of easy ways to balance it, such as shortening up the range/duration of the skill, and making it dispellable. 


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These target designation suggestions fail to validate the need for focus fire, they just assume it's a healthy feature...


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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These target designation suggestions fail to validate the need for focus fire, they just assume it's a healthy feature...

 

There are still plenty of reasons aside from focus fire that it could be useful for. Focus targeting is just the most obvious one. As someone that ran a lot of banes during 7 years of Shadowbane, there were a ton of situations where I would need to draw attention to a specific person or group, despite all of us being highly communicative in ventrilo:

  • I may want to prioritize a specific officer in the enemy guild that is important to their battle organization
  • I may want to have a specific person debuffed
  • I may want to highlight a ranged enemy that has been harrying my supports 
  • I may want to highlight a person that is attacking my siege equipment
  • I may want to rally my forces to a specific location as we've become spread out

There's 6 things off the top of my head that aren't specifically about focus targeting. Painting a target is about prioritizing. Focus firing is just a single function of that.

Edited by halethrain

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So, just nailing this subject to a tree again... The lack of healing emphasis in this game means it's harder to survive, and focus fire should be eliminated with focus healing.

 

Not that people won't focus fire, but they shouldn't be giving it any assistance. A combination of collision and battlefield isolation can work together to keep aggression isolated to a few players around you, and real strategy and coordination can be developed through practice and talent rather than artificial assistance, which eliminates an alternate method for players with different talents to accel.

 

Sorry for discounting your argument, but the features of Crowfall should be appropriate for Crowfall, not just adopted from other sources with no context for the differences.

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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