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General Screwtape

Play2Crush means to me: not always fair, but always exciting.

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I can remember my first time in the world of Azeroth. I was hacking away at some young beast when the unthinkable happened. I died. Used to the harsh realities of SB I was almost dumbfounded when my death brought almost no consequences. It was at this moment, I remember it so clearly, that a little bit of fun was sucked out of the game for me.

 

Since then I've experienced many more of these moments. In games such as SB, which I loved most of all, the true excitement was the tense feeling from the moment you logged on. Not always from combat. Sometimes peace talks between nations. Or even carrying out the vital backstab in a double cross plot. Just in real life, the moment held uncertain outcomes. And this made playing, the unpredictable beauty of it all, so enjoyable that we forgot about how unbalanced templars were. We didn't mind laggy sieges...well we accepted them at least. Because the game was almost as good as the real thing.

 

Now devs are quick to be sure everyone can get an equal part of the pie. But that sure does leave me wanting.

 

Change the way gamers think again. A time when smarts and wit overcame level 100 epics. When choices had consequences...when we had REAL choices! When the recruitment thread didn't ask about gear...we wanted references.

 

I truly hope this is the direction of your game. It is what I have been waiting for for a long time.


keep calm & crush

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Well, I definitely agree with the choices [art. I hope this game offers the players a choice in almost all that they do, not just a linear game.

 

I personally would like full loot like Darkfall, but I know that probably won't happen, so hopefully there is something in place like Asheron's Call Darktide, or Runescape, where it is partial loot.

 

I wish PvP kills felt rewarding in most games, but themepark games like WoW give almost no reward for killing anyone. There really is no incentive to PvP.


 EOWWuhQ.png 
 

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No incentive to PvP. Well I really do understand what you mean but might I add a little detail to this.

 

Remember vanilla wow and the battles at Southshore (& Tauren Mill)! Those we epic and so much fun! And how about the push-pull battles in early Aion at the outer jumpgate platform. I have so many memories of all night bloodbaths.

 

The rewards then were bragging rights. And in my humble opinion, sometimes that's exactly all you need. Although I will admit that sometimes shiny loot can drive the motivation for conflict and that's not bad either. The focus I hope will include both. And show a new player base that your name on the top of a leaderboard or castle flag is worth more than that purple helmet.


keep calm & crush

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I kill people for 2 reasons:

 

1-tears

2-bragging rights

I can respect wholeheartedly this.

 

However, as a finely tuned killing machine, certainly you can appreciate that the WAY you kill people is ultimately important.

 

What is domination without conflict? And what is conflict without aggression? The answer is mindless slaughter. That is what every theme park PvP offers. The opportunity to kill an opponent who has neither offended you or your brethren. An unknown enemy who in the heat of battle is reduced to nothing more than a life bar.

 

Dont get me wrong. There is a time and place for this. And it can be incredibly fun. But Those that have played a politically charged mmorpg before can attest, the reward of conquering your sworn enemy after weeks of careful planning and manipulation... There can be no better joy for a killer like you sir.


keep calm & crush

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It's hard for people who only know standard modern themepark MMOs to fathom that penalties on death can significantly increase the depth and validity of the world.

 

It's spice.

 

I equate death consequences to spicy food. It's not for everyone, but those who love it, REALLY love it. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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It's hard for people who only know standard modern themepark MMOs to fathom that penalties on death can significantly increase the depth and validity of the world.

 

It's spice.

 

I equate death consequences to spicy food. It's not for everyone, but those who love it, REALLY love it.

Quite eloquently put sir. So perhaps we as gamers of all backgrounds can reach a palatable middle ground.

 

I would personnally love to see late game focus on two entirely different but interdependent fronts. Much like real life, not everyone wishes to be a front line soldier. However the romance between the military and its people is undeniable. On the other side take University as an example where the mystery of knowledge lures its own following.

 

So my point...can a game provide a politically charged environment where battle flurishes and wars are waged and at the same time provide another player just as much joy from support functions to that end. Perhaps you would rather be the worlds top gunsmith, yet never fire a bullet. (What a radical thing. Crafting having some of the same uniqueness that PvP might bring. What if only 10 people in the world could craft the Sword of Mighty Might! And you were one of them. Of course your apprentice kills you and steals the blueprints.... )

 

Just a thought...


keep calm & crush

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Play 2 crush means making as many people quit the game as possible.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

SWrkfdj.jpg

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It's hard for people who only know standard modern themepark MMOs to fathom that penalties on death can significantly increase the depth and validity of the world.

 

It's spice.

 

I equate death consequences to spicy food. It's not for everyone, but those who love it, REALLY love it. 

 

I agree! Before playing any games that had drawbacks for dying, I was happy with themeparks. Ever since PvPing in Runescape in middleschool, I haven't gone back to a themepark. Then Darkfall spoiled me even more, and now? I just don't see the fun in non-open world PvP with some kind of loot. I would be happy with even just inventory looting, and not equipped items (though in a perfect world, I would prefer full loot, or even perma death!  :angry: RAWR!)


 EOWWuhQ.png 
 

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I like full loot, but perma-death invalidates the progress on my character, which is too far for me. In fact, it's the main reason why I dislike real life, the death penalties are too hardcore for me. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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I like full loot, but perma-death invalidates the progress on my character, which is too far for me. In fact, it's the main reason why I dislike real life, the death penalties are too hardcore for me.

 

HA! But you are right. In my OP I talked about the excitement we feel as significant consequences are offered to us rather than the contra code in most games made now. However lets not let this get too far out of hand. Perhaps a permanent death scenario is possible but only through a risk-reward type of feature. Want to wield Frostmourne and pwn dem noobs? Well, it might literally claim your life if you do.

 

>>>Again we go back to Real Choices!

 

But let's be honest, perma-death is probably off the table and with good reason. It is too harsh a penalty for the non super hardcore, and at the end of the day I do want a strong player base supporting the game with good cash flow. I think one of the devs touched on this when they talked about UO and the financial decisions made in that game.


keep calm & crush

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The one thing I find amusing is the common trend in believing that in a multiplayer environment, all players should be equal and the game should be fair, mechanical and gameplay- wise at least.I understand it is a fantasy world, but the word "fair" isn't in my vocabulary when I attempt to explicate the culture inside MMORPGs. They were built on the foundation that players will never be equals, somebody is bound to be superior over another by any means the game allows you to. That is actually the foundation of my belief in balance. A game is balanced when a bad player stands no chance versus a good player, this applies to team based environments as well. If a player, or a group of players can defeat players due to a factor that isn't because of their personal skill(s) in the game, the game is out of balance. Chess is the perfect example of this, even if player made completely random movements, their theoretical chances of defeating a chess master would be at least three times less than winning in the weekly lottery.

 

This fairness trend is the one that took it overboard, players should not be penalized for not being equals to another player is after thought of this, and that is what ultimately turned MMORPG death penalties to zero. Your typical MMORPG player did not want to be penalized for their lack of personal skills, which created scenarios that lead to their deaths. I find this concept ridiculous, unrewarding game experience where you never on a personal level seek to strife to become better, because the incentive is no longer there. Becoming better becomes a meaningless struggle when the game is made into a hand holding experience where it doesn't matter if you weren't better than the others, you'll still get a consolation price. I sincerely hope Crowfall won't support this kindergarten sports team mentality.

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. Your typical MMORPG player did not want to be penalized for their lack of personal skills, which created scenarios that lead to their deaths.

In my experience, the typical mmo player did not want to be 'over-penalized' for their lack of personal skills.

 

This is a key detail. In a game that punishes severely for minor differences in skill or gear, the player on top will almost always stay on top. The whole point of mmo devs creating 'catch up' mechanics is to give new or lower skilled players a chance to advance. To give them a chance to compete. The goal imo should not be to eliminate them entirely, but to curb their use in order to promote player growth from within and not handcuff your advanced player base.

 

The idea of fairness from the bottom is much different than the top.

 

I truly believe the focus shouldn't always be on how long you played a game to get good. Perhaps it should be what you do with your time and what impact you can make.

Edited by general screwtape

keep calm & crush

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The one thing I find amusing is the common trend in believing that in a multiplayer environment, all players should be equal and the game should be fair, mechanical and gameplay- wise at least.I understand it is a fantasy world, but the word "fair" isn't in my vocabulary when I attempt to explicate the culture inside MMORPGs. They were built on the foundation that players will never be equals, somebody is bound to be superior over another by any means the game allows you to. That is actually the foundation of my belief in balance. A game is balanced when a bad player stands no chance versus a good player, this applies to team based environments as well. If a player, or a group of players can defeat players due to a factor that isn't because of their personal skill(s) in the game, the game is out of balance. Chess is the perfect example of this, even if player made completely random movements, their theoretical chances of defeating a chess master would be at least three times less than winning in the weekly lottery.

 

This fairness trend is the one that took it overboard, players should not be penalized for not being equals to another player is after thought of this, and that is what ultimately turned MMORPG death penalties to zero. Your typical MMORPG player did not want to be penalized for their lack of personal skills, which created scenarios that lead to their deaths. I find this concept ridiculous, unrewarding game experience where you never on a personal level seek to strife to become better, because the incentive is no longer there. Becoming better becomes a meaningless struggle when the game is made into a hand holding experience where it doesn't matter if you weren't better than the others, you'll still get a consolation price. I sincerely hope Crowfall won't support this kindergarten sports team mentality.

 

I agree with what you say, I am one of those that would like to play on the pre-cept of Skill > Gear and unfortunately this is something that has bypassed MMO for the past number of years.

 

The last game I played where skill > gear was actually Guild Wars 1 (because all armor had the same rating, weapons had same damage etc...), but then people cried about the game being imbalanced as it was balanced to team play rather than 1v1 play

 

1v1 will ALWAYS be inherently imbalanced as some classes/professions vie towards ST damage, just as some classes push for AoE, Group Support etc... 

 

I am watching this game to see where they are looking to balance, whether there will be gear creep/power creep etc...

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I agree with what you say, I am one of those that would like to play on the pre-cept of Skill > Gear and unfortunately this is something that has bypassed MMO for the past number of years.

 

The last game I played where skill > gear was actually Guild Wars 1 (because all armor had the same rating, weapons had same damage etc...), but then people cried about the game being imbalanced as it was balanced to team play rather than 1v1 play

 

1v1 will ALWAYS be inherently imbalanced as some classes/professions vie towards ST damage, just as some classes push for AoE, Group Support etc... 

 

I am watching this game to see where they are looking to balance, whether there will be gear creep/power creep etc...

The loud minority of people who fail to look at the game's balance rationally will always have something to complain about balance, it wouldn't matter if the game was actually balanced from group vs group point of view in a manner each class / player set up have the chances of killing one in a single player combat as well another due to players individual skills.

Edited by nehemia

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One thing about game being 'balanced'... It is always someone who lack skill and/or thought to win start this and developers - just how gullible are they? - listen! Why-y-y-y-y? Not to mention some games became shadows of themselves because of such players. They are not that much of a bunch, but they whine and whine and whine constantly about how bad things are how balance should fieeeeeexeeeeeeed.

 

And devs listen.

 

So if this game is in that vein please do not listen to them. We will balance out everything ourselves. *draws sword and looks around, searching for said whiners; than addresses oldschool PvPers* Right, guys?

 

:)


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Balance is important as is skill > gear imo

 

but...

 

Game Devs from the start should state their priority for class balance, is it being balanced towards group or towards 1v1

 

Balance is, imo, simply the hardest thing of all to achieve in a game, there are so many variables and every PvP player will tell you that one of the first things they will always try and do is to find that "magic build" that gives you the edge (even to the point of being totally OP)

 

If this is a game where gear is going to be a major factor in your ability to PvP then issues start to arise of the top players continue to move away from the herd and eventually there is a time when the game gets very stagnant (look at Aion as a perfect example of this, Gear & Class > Skill)

 

There is NO perfect formula for balance and therefore ,imo, Devs should set their stall from day 1 by stating what they are hoping to achieve, where their priority for balance is (which is very game dependent, if the game is going to be more of a solo roamer then 1v1 is balance priority, if it group priority then GvG is balance priority)

 

Again I would point to GW1 where they got this right for the majority of the time, only towards the end they screwed up by listening to the uber-casual playerbase, the people that play 3-4 hours per week and demand their share of PvP ranks and awards...

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I can respect wholeheartedly this.

 

However, as a finely tuned killing machine, certainly you can appreciate that the WAY you kill people is ultimately important.

 

What is domination without conflict? And what is conflict without aggression? The answer is mindless slaughter. That is what every theme park PvP offers. The opportunity to kill an opponent who has neither offended you or your brethren. An unknown enemy who in the heat of battle is reduced to nothing more than a life bar.

 

Dont get me wrong. There is a time and place for this. And it can be incredibly fun. But Those that have played a politically charged mmorpg before can attest, the reward of conquering your sworn enemy after weeks of careful planning and manipulation... There can be no better joy for a killer like you sir.

I'm all for PvP, but I agree, there has to be an aim to it.

 

While I do not disagree with Khal's motivations, it cant be indiscriminate noob mashing; not saying that's yours Khal. 

 

PvP NEEDS to be world conflict driven. 

 

Rolling a zone to PK and loot farmers or leveling groups is great.  There's a purpose and a risk/reward for both the hunter and the hunted. 

 

I remember in my early days of SB, you had House Avari that patrolled the elven zone and engaged anyone who was not an elf.  I also remember a UDL bard named Zeb Insidious that was the terror of many solo and small group farmers;  the guy excelled in picking off stragglers, the lowest level player in your group, or you if you were engaged with too many mobs.  Was it a pain in the ass always watching for him?  Of course, but it added an element to the game.  You knew you took a risk when you entered a zone.

 

This is why content and active leveling will be critical.   Active leveling creates an investment in your character and the game.  If someone is unwilling to take 1-2 weeks to level a character, my guess is that their investment(chance of playing long term) is minimal in the first place.  Leveling provides more points of CONFLICT.

 

Make all crafting resource driven.  A robust crafting system helps to carve a niche for solo players and promotes a diverse economy.   These resources and their gathering provide natural points of conflict.

 

This would be my baseline.  Mines, sieges, events, hot zones are great in addition to this.  Please give as many reasons as possible to promote WORLD pvp, but let there be a reason behind it..

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