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General Screwtape

Play2Crush means to me: not always fair, but always exciting.

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Play 2 crush means making as many people quit the game as possible.

 

Won't be around long then.  Won't be enough left paying to play.  I know they want to keep it to a select number rather than aim at millions but the game still supports itself and earns them a living or it dies.  Not difficult arithmetic really.


Not quite carebear, but sort of cousin to,


meh, grumpy old lady...


Never underestimate grumpy old ladies.

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The one thing I find amusing is the common trend in believing that in a multiplayer environment, all players should be equal and the game should be fair, mechanical and gameplay- wise at least...If a player, or a group of players can defeat players due to a factor that isn't because of their personal skill(s) in the game, the game is out of balance...

 

Completely agree.  I've seen plenty of players, who have no skills, totally rely on their gear to win, or spam something over and over again that requires zero skill at all.  I'm not impressed by those types, although they seem to be quite impressed with themselves.

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I'm all for PvP, but I agree, there has to be an aim to it.

 

While I do not disagree with Khal's motivations, it cant be indiscriminate noob mashing; not saying that's yours Khal.

 

PvP NEEDS to be world conflict driven.

 

Rolling a zone to PK and loot farmers or leveling groups is great. There's a purpose and a risk/reward for both the hunter and the hunted.

 

I remember in my early days of SB, you had House Avari that patrolled the elven zone and engaged anyone who was not an elf. I also remember a UDL bard named Zeb Insidious that was the terror of many solo and small group farmers; the guy excelled in picking off stragglers, the lowest level player in your group, or you if you were engaged with too many mobs. Was it a pain in the ass always watching for him? Of course, but it added an element to the game. You knew you took a risk when you entered a zone.

 

This is why content and active leveling will be critical. Active leveling creates an investment in your character and the game. If someone is unwilling to take 1-2 weeks to level a character, my guess is that their investment(chance of playing long term) is minimal in the first place. Leveling provides more points of CONFLICT.

 

Make all crafting resource driven. A robust crafting system helps to carve a niche for solo players and promotes a diverse economy. These resources and their gathering provide natural points of conflict.

 

This would be my baseline. Mines, sieges, events, hot zones are great in addition to this. Please give as many reasons as possible to promote WORLD pvp, but let there be a reason behind it..

Great points! Yes world PvP does seem to provide the most robust experience compared to things like arenas or battlegrounds. But let's point out why that is...

 

Two simple but very potent ingredients.

 

First, the breadth of choices for the individual or group in an open world focus can give real power to these choices. Perhaps its a new alliance made in order to take down a common enemy. Perhaps its small group PvP stealthily causing havoc on the server and making a name for themselves. These are the exciting moments I reference in my OP. This is what the theme park worlds of so many mmo's lack and what crowfall could be.

 

Second, only in an open world does conflict become organically created and not feel forced by Dev design. Instead of queue'ing up for the next mindless arena CTF, SB was great because the conflict between nations was created almost solely by player interactions. The game never told you who to like or hate, it just happened.

Edited by general screwtape

keep calm & crush

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Nothing beats a hate whisper

 

Leading people into the 'wildy' in Runescape when we were all in 7th grade was awesome haha.

Nothing beats a hate whisper

 

Leading people into the 'wildy' in Runescape when we were all in 7th grade was awesome haha.


   Elder Scrolls Online - Templar/Nightblade Mains      Guild Wars 2 - Necromancer/Thief Mains    http://www.twitch.tv/sommazzatore

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Good god it was necroed with a Runescape comment.

 

Also R.I.P Blaze Duskdreamer


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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One thing about game being 'balanced'... It is always someone who lack skill and/or thought to win start this and developers - just how gullible are they? - listen! Why-y-y-y-y? Not to mention some games became shadows of themselves because of such players. They are not that much of a bunch, but they whine and whine and whine constantly about how bad things are how balance should fieeeeeexeeeeeeed.

 

And devs listen.

 

So if this game is in that vein please do not listen to them. We will balance out everything ourselves. *draws sword and looks around, searching for said whiners; than addresses oldschool PvPers* Right, guys?

 

:)

This has already happened here and there are very few left to voice these opinions and even fewer that can do it by their rules. This is a great thread.


KRIPTIKserratedv3_zps4ptlmh6o.gif

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One thing about game being 'balanced'... It is always someone who lack skill and/or thought to win start this and developers - just how gullible are they? - listen! Why-y-y-y-y? Not to mention some games became shadows of themselves because of such players. They are not that much of a bunch, but they whine and whine and whine constantly about how bad things are how balance should fieeeeeexeeeeeeed.

 

And devs listen.

 

So if this game is in that vein please do not listen to them. We will balance out everything ourselves. *draws sword and looks around, searching for said whiners; than addresses oldschool PvPers* Right, guys?

 

:)

 

That is what I always admired in fighting games. Updates / balance patches were 3 or 4 times a year. Sometimes even less! Back then when something was broken you just found something more broken or a counter. Or in a case of Akuma all players just agree to not use a strat. But look at games now... in League every 2 weeks there is a patch. Although not that major there is no room in which the game can evolve by itself.

 

P.S. OP you are the best necromancer possible xD I even thought that you dont follow the thread anymore.


 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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Well, I definitely agree with the choices [art. I hope this game offers the players a choice in almost all that they do, not just a linear game.

 

I personally would like full loot like Darkfall, but I know that probably won't happen, so hopefully there is something in place like Asheron's Call Darktide, or Runescape, where it is partial loot.

 

I wish PvP kills felt rewarding in most games, but themepark games like WoW give almost no reward for killing anyone. There really is no incentive to PvP.

 

The bolded sentence carries great irony within it.

 

The biggest case of "themeparking" PvP in MMOs is having to have carrots dangling all over the place in the form of Loot . . . for people to be willing to engage in it. :rolleyes:

 

PvP is it's own reward.  Out thinking your opponent.  The "loot that dudes corpse there, yee-haa" isn't really where it's at IMO, and if it's a gear/stat/level founded game it turns into broken real fast.  Now, TERRITORY control, that feels much different and welcome to me.

 

Some of my best PvP memories in WoW come from open world PvP where I was able to get AT the player behind the toon . . . and made them GO AWAY. :D   They gave up, tossed in the towel, stopped coming back attempting rezz-ambushes, or rezz-recoveries behind the tree/in the cottage, in the middle of the bush.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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what play2crush means to me is

 

ppppppbtbbhht


hi i play2crush because im hardcore and pvp so there u go

 

play2crush because i cant articulate it enough that im such a badass and ur not


The most important thing is to enjoy your life - to be happy - it's all that matters. - Audrey Hepburn “:♡.•♬✧⁽⁽ଘ( ˊᵕˋ )ଓ⁾⁾*+:•*∴
Read more at brainyquote.com/search_results.html#KTJ4dHyeiltlKOTM.99

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The bolded sentence carries great irony within it.

 

The biggest case of "themeparking" PvP in MMOs is having to have carrots dangling all over the place in the form of Loot . . . for people to be willing to engage in it. :rolleyes:

 

PvP is it's own reward.  Out thinking your opponent.  The "loot that dudes corpse there, yee-haa" isn't really where it's at IMO, and if it's a gear/stat/level founded game it turns into broken real fast.  Now, TERRITORY control, that feels much different and welcome to me.

 

Some of my best PvP memories in WoW come from open world PvP where I was able to get AT the player behind the toon . . . and made them GO AWAY. :D   They gave up, tossed in the towel, stopped coming back attempting rezz-ambushes, or rezz-recoveries behind the tree/in the cottage, in the middle of the bush.

 

I agree with a lot of this.  I agree that PvP does not need a bunch of external reinforcers to be engaging and that in-game rewards (eg, loot), when emphasized, actually detract from the fun.  Gear disparity is one of the biggest problems with PvP in most MMOs.  However, I wont go so far as to say all gear should be made equal, because that smacks of GW style of PvP which is far too sanitary and disconnected from any sort of ongoing narrative as to be anti-immersive. 

 

Those things being said, I do think that conflict that results in rewards that are shared by groups of players, such as territory, can elevate the PvP experience.  I also believe that a true sense of danger makes PvP much more immersive and fun.  This last point is why "loot[ing] that dudes corpse" is important.  It is not so much what I gain from looting him, but what he loses that counts.  A real fear of death adds to the game--PvP or PvE (for that matter).  BGs are fun, but they will never be as fun as open world PvP when there are significant, though not crippling, consequences to being defeated by your opponent.  

 

Finally, I will have to disagree with your last point--or at least what I think you are hinting at and how that plays out in some games.  There seems to be a common thread amongst some PvP enthusiasts that disturbing the player behind the character is where the real fun lies.  In old MUD-speak, "PKing" (as apposed to PvPing) is a sort of sadistic (for lack of a better term) behavior that ultimately detracts from the overall quality of the game.  I know that you aren't talking about spawn camping lowbies in your post, but you did mention "get[ting] at the player behind the toon."  It is, I believe, an unintended aberration that was created when the anonymity of the internet met with gaming that included the ability to kill other players' characters without provocation, purpose or profit.  Personally, I much prefer narrative, purpose driven PvP combat with real consequences--and I think that makes a better game.  Defeat your opponent, by all means Play2Crush, but playing a game with the intent of ruining the experience of another is not competitive or skillful; it's simply sad.  Again, I realize that you, Bramble, were not necessarily advocating for old school PK/griefing.       


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Pre and Post-WoW mmorpgs had very different takes on pvp, people can learn from both eras to make even better pvp.

 

What made pre-wow mmorpg and especially 1st gen mmorpg pvp awesome?  The context behind it and it happening on persistent characters in a persistent world. 

 

In EQ1 people slaved so hard to build and gear their characters, when you went up against someone's maxed character you were going against hundreds if not thousands of hours of work they had put into it... because mmorpgs focused so hard on open world experiences and didn't have all the gimmick features that kill a players bond with the game world (like instancing, server xfers, etc) when a guy took out a character that you had worked hard to build it had huge significance.  It meant something.... then you get into the mmorpgs that had a ton of player politics attached with their pvp like asheron's call on the darktide server, daoc, shadowbane... and it added a whole new layer to it all. 

 

Post-WoW games lost that due to heavy instancing, arenas, battlegrounds, sectioned off pvp, or very little pain on pvp death.  What Post-WoW did bring to the table though were advances in technology, smoother gameplay, more fluid camera work, and better ways to raise the mechanical skill-ceiling. 

 

Now if you can take a game that requires good mechanical skill (action combat is a great start, but they need to polish it a lot because right now it has a low skill-ceiling) and then put emphasis back on to the persistent worlds (i don't see why crowfall wouldn't, their game is primarily focused on persistent world social interaction with pvp at the center of it all) you can basically take the good qualities of old mmorpgs and new ones, fuse them together, and make something that hasn't been done very well before. 

 

The major hurdle crowfall faces is catering to convenience, it has become so ingrained within gamers now that they will fight for it at all levels.  Some people will want a mechanically easy game, some will want a tactically easy game, some will just want the game in general to be easy... well guess what, if you make the game easy the game world becomes shallow and you diminish the significance and weight of pvp victory and defeat. 

 

As for ruining other people's experiences.... in 1st gen mmorpgs it was truly the wild west, we had never really interacted with people so anonymously on such a large scale through video games... These games brought people from all walks of life and threw them into a big game world, and just like in real life, there was clashing in mentality, people playing for different reasons etc.  Games have come a long way from that time though, it's much more mainstream now and isn't just for the most passionate and nerdy people.  With that comes different standards and trends for player behavior. 

 

If they make a game that has enough depth, and makes it so the user develops enough of a bond with their character and really gets immersed in it, you won't have as many people griefing just to grief, because there will be serious in-game repercussions if they anger enough people in game.  Hopefully instead they'll be griefing specific people because they hate those people for in-game reasons...

 

The reality of it also is, that most people are not at the elite level when it comes to games... there will always be a pecking order.... the game will be play2crush for the people that are really good at it... and it will be play2survive for the ones that aren't very good at it... and then perhaps if they get good at it it will become play2crush for them someday...

 

As far as gear and stuff... these are supposed to be rpgs, not arenas... we aren't all supposed to be on equal footing... that's the whole point of a persistent world with a massive amount of players, to create all sorts of uneven situations and challenge people to adapt to them...

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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What made pre-wow mmorpg and especially 1st gen mmorpg pvp awesome?  The context behind it and it happening on persistent characters in a persistent world. 

 

In EQ1 people slaved so hard to build and gear their characters, when you went up against someone's maxed character you were going against hundreds if not thousands of hours of work they had put into it... because mmorpgs focused so hard on open world experiences and didn't have all the gimmick features that kill a players bond with the game world (like instancing, server xfers, etc) when a guy took out a character that you had worked hard to build it had huge significance.  It meant something.... then you get into the mmorpgs that had a ton of player politics attached with their pvp like asheron's call on the darktide server, daoc, shadowbane... and it added a whole new layer to it all. 

 

Post-WoW games lost that due to heavy instancing, arenas, battlegrounds, sectioned off pvp, or very little pain on pvp death.

 

 

 

Agreed.  Even MUDs, with a population of maybe 50 or so consistent players, felt like a living place where your relationship to others really mattered.  That has been lost in recent games.  "Mega Servers" are straight from the devil as far as I am concerned, and most instancing can go right in the trash, too.  The thing is, if you tried to tell a MMO player that maybe started playing in WoW that instancing has damaged MMOs, they'd look at you like you're an idiot.  There is a pretty steep price players pay for all that convenience and most don't even know it. 

 

I hold the mostly unpopular opinion that raids, dungeons, arena and even BGs are perhaps the worst things that ever happened to the MMO genre (oh and queuing involved, don't forget that).  This is not to say that certain players can't find enjoyment in those activities; it is to say that those instanced features erode away all connection to the world and other players outside of your own little group (and there are other issues that I wont go into here).

 

 

The reality of it also is, that most people are not at the elite level when it comes to games... there will always be a pecking order.... the game will be play2crush for the people that are really good at it... and it will be play2survive for the ones that aren't very good at it... and then perhaps if they get good at it it will become play2crush for them someday...

 

I am not so sure about this.  Often times, "elite" simply means a good player who has access to a large, supportive guild and a lot of time to invest in playing a game.  It can also mean a great connection, gear disparity, a bunch of add-ons, exploits (ie "game features"  :blink: ) and in some extreme cases, hacking.  That seems to me what separates most "elites" from simply "good players."

 

 

As far as gear and stuff... these are supposed to be rpgs, not arenas... we aren't all supposed to be on equal footing... that's the whole point of a persistent world with a massive amount of players, to create all sorts of uneven situations and challenge people to adapt to them...

 

 

Yes and no.  I agree that we are not supposed to be on equal footing at all times, but I do think that the disparity that often exists needs to be dialed down in some cases.  For example, I played PvP exclusively in WAR (did you try the PvE? Awful!).  My small group of friends and I were very good--high contribution, lots of kills or healing, etc.  That is until we hit the last level bracket.  The vast majority of players in that bracket were not any better than us, and if I may be so bold I think many of them were actually worse, but they destroyed us constantly because of gear.   Same thing in Wildstar.  Some people like to go on about how bad Wildstar PvP was, but in BGs at least it was a lot of fun and there definitely was decent twitch skill invoked--until gear problems came into the picture.

  

There is a balance that must be struck with making gear variety and advantage a real thing, but not so overpowering as to make PvP a joke. 

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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