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Kobold Princess

Competitive Attitudes, Player-Policing, And "toxicity"

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We do have a rep system in a sense, it just lacks downvoting.  

Anyway, yes it would be abused.  There are people here who are very polite posters, yet they get disagreed with heavily to the point of it being a pile on.  Not complaining about it, but consider that happening alongside an up or down reputation system.  

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Not only does this happen, but it exists among various types of gamers.  Unfortunately, it can't be prevented, simply because the more popular a game becomes, the more toxic the community can become.  League of Legends, for example, is known for having one of the most toxic communities of all time in gaming.  However, it comes with the territory...  In early WoW, being a toxic player got you server shunned, although that sort of thing has become outdated.  In my opinion, with a game like this, if someone becomes toxic then it'll mostly be limited to the forums since it's largely a PvP based game with an emphasis on crafting for progression.  If you're toxic in game then more likely than not you'll simply be killed if you're toxic in a campaign or people wont want you in their EK since you've brought bad reputation to them.  Although, the amazing thing about this game is that there is balance, order, and chaos, so perhaps the more toxic players will migrate towards chaos and etc.  The true beauty about a game like this lies in the fact that toxicity can be alleviated by the community in the sense that wars can be waged, reputation can be gained or lost, and what have you.  I think people have become used to artificial restrictions, but this game might eventually be able to allow the freedom for guilds and players to actually battle players that are "toxic".  However, it should be noted that toxicity is often synonymous with competitiveness, and often times someone actually needs to have a "toxic" mentality to push themselves forward and be a true champion.

 

 

I really have to disagree with the bolded bit. Toxicity doesn't add anything of value to the game or community, and especially not on a personal level. You can be both civil and competitive. In fact, you cite League of Legends, but a lot of numbers have shown that games with toxic attitudes contribute to the team's loss -- whether the bile is directed at the enemy or ally. There's a definite difference between ribbing or even some trash talking, but when it devolves to unproductive angry lashing out, no one's having fun. From personal experience, I have been utterly devastated by several players in the past, and have had amicable conversation with them in all chat despite this. In fact, it led to a gold smurf and me talking and eventually playing together and giving me tips (Which actually helped me reach high silver)

 

When I play competitively, I don't want to just be handed a victory. I want a really well-earned win, so I always try to offer helpful and friendly advice to my defeated adversaries. It also contributes positively to my community and even makes me friends. Toxic attitudes, by contrast, only create bitter rivalries and not friendly ones. It serves only to make the person angry while playing. Which really confuses me. If you're playing a game, why would you want it to make you angry? I spend enough time disgruntled off at my supervisor at work. Why would I want to come into a place of further hostility as a past time?

Edited by Anhasia

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In response to two very long posts (Here and Here) by Gordon in regards to player attitudes, competition, and policing

 

.................

What To Do About It?

 

Here's the meat of the subject. What do we do about it? (Assuming we do anything) Well, that's what the thread is for. Just as a start, I'll go over some high-level systems that are often used in response to this sort of activity.

  • Moderation

By far the most common solution. Individuals, either volunteer or paid by the company, are imbued with the power to punish other players. This can run from muting, suspensions, item deletion, right up to banning. We all know what it looks like, and we all know this game is probably going to have some form of it.

  • Reputation Systems

Certain activities in the game cause players to accrue some sort of 'reputation'. Either there is a form of Karma, and killing people who the game chooses to bestow 'safety' causes negative Karma, or particular groups have forms of Reputation, and taking particular actions that are seen as negative against those groups causes a Reputation hit. Finally, some games also give the option to actively change the reputation of another player, perhaps with a form of 'soft' reporting mechanism. Sometimes, these systems tie into:

  • Justice Systems

These are systems in which players, either by force of another player, or due to automatic systems (usually related to Reputation/Karms/Etc) are 'brought to justice'. This can run the gamut, from a bounty hunting system which allows an individual person to pay anyone who brings another player to justice, to a restraint system, which allows people to restrain or forcibly move other players, to simulated courtrooms, and forms of 'jail', which is usually a form of time-out in which the player is forced to spend time online without playing, or playing in an isolated sandbox.

 

Ok, so this is the trap that every single game on the market in the last dozen+ years has fallen into.

 

With the best of intentions they go about implementing rulesets designed to keep players from being able to do anything that adversely impacts the 'experience' of another player. Unfortunately, in doing so they typically negatively impact the experience of that player.

 

1. Moderation. Should only be used if there is a TOS violation, or cheating (hacking, duping, whatever).

 

2. Reputation:  Why? First it's exploitable (see any of the games that have reputations attached and their are dozens of griefign mechanisms attached to it) and second whats the point? /tell guild: Hey, just got killed by joebob the jakazs, he's killing noobs in the pink bunny spawn...anyone interested in ruining his fun? Voila, player run reputation system. The only exploit is from joebob's tears after he dies a half dozen times and is unable to kill noobs. the horror.

 

3. Justice systems: What exactly are you trying to accomplish. The only one i've really seen in action was AA, and that was a joke. The only justice system we need is one where players can't be anonymous. Player name. Player guild. locate player guild. Burn guild's stuff down because their player was an jackazs. no safezone to hide in, no 'pk switch' to toggle.

 

summary:

Keep players from cheating.

Give us an /ignore switch so we can, uh, ignore people that we find annoying.

Give us a /report command that sends a screenshot along with our text description of the event (cheating tos violation, etc)...

Give us a toggleable profanity filter so players that don't want to see poorly made socks custard hooligan cute fluffy kitten bottom bugger don't have to. ha hooligan dodges the filter :)

keep players from cheating.

 

and leave us alone.

Edited by dubanka

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Dubanka speaks wisely...imo

 

yer olde Doc sez....if it's not already in your DNA....

 

read it again....


FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I think these forums provides more tools than some. Like they said: filter, report button, moderators, and ignore feature. Toxic? Toxic is relative. Right now the mindset of Crowfall players has gradually evolved from King's Isle to something a little more grown up. As long as DJBrandonJuicedouche or a similar cult leader doesn't land and stir things up, it's relatively ok.

 

If you think it stinks, report it. I'm sure if you cry wolf often enough about things you *think* are toxic, the mods will learn to ignore you.

 

Like I said, toxic is relative. This isn't like it was Week 1. And the ones who were banned were just getting warmed up. I think people are bored and want to either stir stuff up or calm things down. Find your own personal happy medium. We're all not going to be able to settle it on the field for like 18 months.

 

Reputation and justice system though? Ugh. I'll give you my character name when I get to roll one. If you think you're bad, come and get it. Don't ask for a reputation and some prison guards to protect you in the showers. Get some friends.

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While it is a good idea, it will most likely not work, like others have pointed out already.

 

 

  • Reputation Systems

Certain activities in the game cause players to accrue some sort of 'reputation'. Either there is a form of Karma, and killing people who the game chooses to bestow 'safety' causes negative Karma, or particular groups have forms of Reputation, and taking particular actions that are seen as negative against those groups causes a Reputation hit. Finally, some games also give the option to actively change the reputation of another player, perhaps with a form of 'soft' reporting mechanism. Sometimes, these systems tie into:

 

For how this game is slated to be - with all the PvP and such, a Karma system would be pointless.

For a game where PKing is an option but not really a "main feature" of said game it can be handy yes.

Some older games did that well by having systems that flagged your character depending on the amount of player kills, adjusting the chance of you dropping your gear and inventory upon death accordingly. (Guards killing you and such was also something that could happen in those situations, even penal colonies you`d get sent to upon being killed. Granted you could still bust out of them in some cases but anyway...)

For a game like Crowfall though, this would be completely pointless seeing as how PvP is apparantly going to be here.

 

Karma systems can work but ONLY if it`s an automated game mechanic.

Player controlled options to actively change someone`s reputation or "karma" is never a good idea.

All it takes is for someone who didn`t like your face to rally their friends and spam report you (In the cases of "soft" reporting mechanisms.

I.E. Player A said something that Player B didn`t like or maybe they just disliked that Player A had a good reputation.

Player B goes to their friends / guildies / random people and goes "People, lets ruin Player A! / <Insert some reason for doing this here.>". The group goes to work and *WHAM*, Player A's reputation or karma levels take a massive hit or is possibly ruined for a long time, possibly permanently, just because someone decided to be a jerk, didn`t like them, wanted revenge for some reason (Maybe they got killed by Player A or some such thing.) or just didn`t like them.

What is Player A going to do about it? If there isn`t some moderation system in place or a way for Player A to report this and get his/her reputation restored they are pretty much stuck that way.

And no one wants that.

 

  • Justice Systems

These are systems in which players, either by force of another player, or due to automatic systems (usually related to Reputation/Karms/Etc) are 'brought to justice'. This can run the gamut, from a bounty hunting system which allows an individual person to pay anyone who brings another player to justice, to a restraint system, which allows people to restrain or forcibly move other players, to simulated courtrooms, and forms of 'jail', which is usually a form of time-out in which the player is forced to spend time online without playing, or playing in an isolated sandbox.

 
As above, this can work in games where PvP isn`t the main focus.
And to be fair, you don`t need a bounty hunting system to do what you describe. People do this constantly in most games.
Can`t kill that griefer or group of griefers on your own? No friends or guildies online? The solution is simple.
Either you log off (Or go on another character) or you can try paying someone to kill said person / group. Even for revenge killings this is applicable. As such it is also done frequently. "Paying <Insert amount of resource / currency here> to whoever kills <Insert name(s) / guild here>. Bonuses for multiple kills..." Quite simple.
As for a restraint system, this is WAY too abusable.
All you need, as mentioned above with karma / reputation,  is a group of griefers to ruin your gaming.
A restraint system would actually be even worse.
Player A kills Player B to defend themself.
Player B complains to a group of friends, they iniate the penal system (lets say a simulated courtroom) and ensure that Player A is sent to prison.
Now, Player A did nothing wrong yet they are being forced to spend time online without playing / in a prison / playing in an isolated sandbox. All because Player B didn`t like them or couldn`t handle the fact that Player A killed them.
 
If you want an example of such a system, if you haven`t already I suggest you check out ArcheAge.
They have a system such as this in place and it is being abused in the way I described quite badly.
It`s better to just let the griefers have their way on there because if you try to fight back they will abuse the system to ensure you`ll regret it.
 
Personally I`ve always done it the easy way: Pencils and Post-Its! I write names and get my revenge... some other day. :P

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All that said, yeah, people poorly made socks talking in game shouldn't be much of a problem.  Real life threats and the like as well as taking things outside of the bounds of the game, that's when it becomes a problem.  I, personally, just laugh at anybody who sends me hate tells after I've killed them and just respond with a simple response like "Umad bro?" "Trololol" or "Q.Q moar."  Anybody older than 14 years old does the same.  And if you're younger than that, then you shouldn't be playing a game like this.  Your widdle fewwingls huwt because someone trash talked you in an online game?  Welcome to the internet.  Grow up or get out.  Somebody takes things too far and steps out of the bounds of the game?  Report them to the moderators for it and they'll take appropriate action.  Meanwhile you just sit back and laugh at their punishment. 

 

TL;DR Grow up, have fun with the game, and ignore the toxic unpleasant people.  They're only as important as you make them. 

 

 

To be fair, words can hurt. It`s very easy to say "Welcome to the internet, grow up or get out." but not everyone sees or feels it that way. Saying that "It`s the internet." doesn`t mean it`s ok or something of no consequence. It`s easy to say that it should be ignored but people can still be insulted by comments made online, they can still be hurt by it, regardless of if they are "grown up" or not.

On the internet, over the phone, face to face, the medium used is different but the intent and response is the same for alot of people.

 

Granted there are always things that can be done on a game or on the internet when it comes to such things. Blocking, ignoring, reporting to moderators etc. It`s all good and yes, it is true that just like in real life people will have to learn to handle insults / griefing / abuse.

That does not mean they have to accept it though. While you have a very valid point about them (abusers / griefers etc.) only being as important as you make them that doesn`t mean it can be just shrugged off just like that, things are never that easy..

Everyone is different after all. Some people have thicker skin than others when it comes to the bile that people can hurl around. :P

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Nuff said. I think the in-game chat will be handled just fine.

Most of us here are adults (hopefully) so you should have already judged for yourself that it's a competitive PvP game.

PvP games do get heated at times so if you don't like the heat ... get out of the kitchen.


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I used to play a game that had a reputation system, and used the word toxic very liberally. It fostered a community that is solidified around that one ideal so much that attacking a weaker foe was considered toxic. That game should be easily researchable, if that is the type of sandbox you want. 

 

In this game, I hope we can play to crush. In the end even the slander is no different. Instead of immature insults you get passive aggressive ones. It really is no better, or no less toxic. Be careful what you wish for, because letting the devs moderate the corner cases is likely a better solution. 


mael4.jpg


 

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2. Reputation:  Why? First it's exploitable (see any of the games that have reputations attached and their are dozens of griefign mechanisms attached to it) and second whats the point? /tell guild: Hey, just got killed by joebob the jakazs, he's killing noobs in the pink bunny spawn...anyone interested in ruining his fun? Voila, player run reputation system. The only exploit is from joebob's tears after he dies a half dozen times and is unable to kill noobs. the horror.

 

3. Justice systems: What exactly are you trying to accomplish. The only one i've really seen in action was AA, and that was a joke. The only justice system we need is one where players can't be anonymous. Player name. Player guild. locate player guild. Burn guild's stuff down because their player was an jackazs. no safezone to hide in, no 'pk switch' to toggle.

 

As a clarification, a kill tracker (Ala Shadowbane) is an example of a Reputation system, and systems such as the Low-Priority queue in DOTA2, Bounty Hunting systems (SWG), or the ability to toss handcuffs (DayZ) or ropes on someone and forcibly move them are all examples of Justice systems.

 

Anything that allows one player to punish another for their actions, or to find others to punish someone for them, is an example of a player-controlled policing mechanism. They do not need to be automatic, and they don't even need to be specifically built for that purpose. The ability to easily look up the name and guild of someone who killed you, and track them down and kill them (or employ others to do so) are just as much examples of these systems as the extremely well known failures that we could all cite.

 

I included them in the OP not because they were effective means at controlling 'unwanted' player behavior that we should emulate, but because they are simply examples of attempts to either police players, or to allow them to police themselves that had met various amounts of failure or success. (Usually the former.)


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1. Have plenty of reporting tools that players can easily use to report someone if they are harassing them or doing something outside of what the game is meant for.

 

2. If there's not enough mods you can always create a player-run tribunal (similar to league of legends) whereby other players can read reports an dthen vote to have that player punished (IE in-game prison, temp account ban, so on and so fourth).

 

 

3. For actual in game policing, IE pk'ing and such, think of things UO and other open pvp games have done. Faction systems that take into account pk status (IE if you harm friendlies, people in your own faction/guild, etc), this could lead to going "red" and being  kos to town guards or other factaions friendly to those.

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1. Have plenty of reporting tools that players can easily use to report someone if they are harassing them or doing something outside of what the game is meant for.

 

2. If there's not enough mods you can always create a player-run tribunal (similar to league of legends) whereby other players can read reports an dthen vote to have that player punished (IE in-game prison, temp account ban, so on and so fourth).

 

 

3. For actual in game policing, IE pk'ing and such, think of things UO and other open pvp games have done. Faction systems that take into account pk status (IE if you harm friendlies, people in your own faction/guild, etc), this could lead to going "red" and being  kos to town guards or other factaions friendly to those.

ok....

 

1.... yep...an in game report tool like our nifty butt9n on the forums...used when someone goes over the line....i pity in game mods....

 

2....oh hell NO.....just silly.....someone pisses you off...go get them...if you cant do it yourself...get help

 

pretty simple really...do we reaaly need or want anything more than that? not me for damn sure...

 

3.... ANY artificial system you put in bes8des a basic kill/death list WILL be exploited and abused....

 

and I won't be the only one....

 

nuff said?


FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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  • Yes
  • No
  • No

We don't need arbitrary Reputation and "Justice" systems in a PvP-centric MMO.  The purpose of the game is to REWARD players for successfully killing each other.  Those systems are specifically designed to punish people for doing what they're supposed to do in the game: 

 

Not all systems are solely punishment systems. An example of a justice system that is more of a fun PvP addition than a policing tool would be EVE Online's revamped bounty system. It's a player-funded system to reward players for successfully killing each other. Kinda like PVP quests. :) 

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An in-game jail run by players just turns into a popularity contest, one that will drive away the core demographic. Who wants to spend their time in a PvP game where there's a chance they'll be stuck in a jail? It also doesn't fit well with the feel of a game set in a series of chaotic war zones, imo.

Bounty systems introduce another point of "toxic" behavior. I get rich, look for a few new players and place bounty after bounty after bounty on one, because why not? I have the money. The difference for this scenario is that there isn't a viable way to stop the harassment, particularly if I am some second anonymous account that never leaves an EK. There's no fighting back, and no ToS violation for using a game mechanic as intended.

Edited by gharvi

 

Er, what's "edging"?

 

 

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ANY system you try to put in place will fail.  

Report button?  Immature players(yes, we will have them, old and young) will do so much reporting in a pvp game that no one would be able to keep up.

In game mods?  It would help keep the devs from being inundated with reports, but there is also the danger of a mod abusing his power.

In game mechanic?  lol, any in game mechanic will be a challenge to a lot of players to find a way to break/hack/twist to their own purpose.

 

In a true pvp game, the only thing that will work will be self policing as mentioned by so many others.  No, it will not be perfect, but this is not a perfect world. 

If you feel you need some type of revenge, get friends or pay for it ie. bounty.  Will your nemesis learn from his mistake? No.  But you might feel a little better.

 

I hate stupid people.  But since I am totally surrounded by them, I have learned to either laugh them off or ignore them.  I pretty much react the same way to toxic players.  

 

As they say,  sticks and stone may break my bones.....but whips and chains excite me.

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I used to play a game that had a reputation system, and used the word toxic very liberally. It fostered a community that is solidified around that one ideal so much that attacking a weaker foe was considered toxic. That game should be easily researchable, if that is the type of sandbox you want. 

 

In this game, I hope we can play to crush. In the end even the slander is no different. Instead of immature insults you get passive aggressive ones. It really is no better, or no less toxic. Be careful what you wish for, because letting the devs moderate the corner cases is likely a better solution. 

agree with this.    This is the hallmark of a lot of communities.   


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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